Is there a standard for use of the "Pre-Model" designation, i.e. Pre-17, Pre-29, etc., or is it just a loosely-applied term? I have often thought that it best applies to post WWII guns made before 1957 (post war guns without a model number).

For example, a 1938 .357 Magnum would be called a ".357 Magnum." A 1950 .357 Magnum would be called a ".357 Magnum" or a "Pre-27." But I wouldn't necessarily call a 1938 magnum a "Pre-27," although I guess you could.

What's the correct usage for the "pre" designation?

__________________
Aaron Terry

I always thought of it as meaning post war guns, prior to having a model number stamped on them

__________________
Gary Grace
S&WCA #1837

Any gun that did not have a designated model number only a serial number "back in the day." Im no expert though but they will come by soon and probably give you a more complete answer.

Gary, that's what I thought, I will wait for Lee or someone to give us the definitive answer

__________________
Aaron Terry

Pre-Model is a collectors and shooters made up name. All the guns that folks use that term on had a factory applied and used name. Most are mentioned in the SCS&W.
A Pre-Model 29 is model named ".44 Magnum". Sounds better to me.
The names used by the factory should be the names used by the rest of us. The factory names meant something. The Model number names was to meet a government requirement.
You can call them what you want.
All of mine are called "Mister Blasty"
Bill@Yuma

Just shows that great minds think alike!!!

__________________
Gary Grace
S&WCA #1837

I would think the "correct" usage for "pre model XX" would be for guns produced after the transitional revolvers which came out right after WWII which still had long trigger actions, which would mean '49 to '50 as a start. My letter from S&W refers to my .357 Magnum shipped in July of 1952 as ".357 Magnum Pre-Model 27, Five Screw Variation", if that helps any. So that looks like the correct usage would be "name" and then "Pre-Model XX". That's my $.02, I'm sure there will be others more knowledgeable than me adding their comments.

Bill, how was the stamping of the model numbers tied to a government requirement?

__________________
Aaron Terry

SCSW calls my model 1950 Military an "Pre- Model 21"

I don't know if there is a correct usage of the term "pre-model", but it can be useful in describing a gun that may be model marked or not. For example, a 4-screw 44 Magnum in the S184000 serial number range could be model marked or not. It is useful to other collectors if the term Pre-Model 29 is used when the gun has no model number stamped in the yoke cut, otherwise, it should be called a Model 29 (or a 29-1, 29-2, etc.). I use the term Pre-Model 29 or Pre-29 when it aids in describing the gun in question.

I have searched the literature and cannot find out why S&W instituted model numbers. If it had to do with government regulations, I wonder why other manufacturers did not do it (I don't believe a Colt Python has a model number like S&Ws do??).

Bill

stk622.
I agree that the SCS&W uses the "pre-model" term, the book was written by collectors and shooters. Do you think that the S&W factory decided to label a gun made in 1950 by the future name of a gun to be made in 1957? From 1950 to 1956 I would bet the Model 1950 .44 Military was called the Model 1950 .44 Military. In 1957 they called it the Model 21. The S&W factory never called it a Pre-Model; if you have a factory label on your box that says otherwise, it would be interesting to see.
Interesting gun regardless.

Bill@Yuma

According to Jinks, the model number assigned to each model was to simplify identification for the factory. It didn't have anything to do with the government. The dash of course was to identify engineering changes. This is so they would know what parts list to go to when needed.

I agree will all that using pre model sure does simplify communications for collectors. I have seen people object to the practice now and then but I like it.

Bob

I use "Pre-XX" a lot in reference to post-war short action guns made before S&W assigned model numbers. It is quick and easy.

The book refers to it as both.... a model 1950 Military, or specifically:

44 Hand Ejector 4th Model Military, then, AKA Model of 1950 44 Military, THEN "Pre- Model 21. Page 160.

You'd have to ask smarter people than I, but It's a pre-21.

If this were true, and it isn't, then how do you explain Colt firearms of the same period, as well as other makes, which have never been assigned model numbers??

Aaron.
That was a statement based on something I thought I had read in a S&W book or maybe on the internet. I was not able to find the source, must be a mistake on my part.
In my experience most numbers are assigned to something to be in compliance of a government regulation.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Bill@Yuma

Not an expert but it seems to me all S&W models had names before the model numbers appeared, no? Military & Police, Highway Patrolman, Terrier, etc. Why do we need pre-10, pre-28 and pre-32?

__________________
No life story has happy end.

Sir.
I made a mistake. It was something I thought I had read.
I can no more explain why Colt "did not" have Model numbers than I can explain why Winchester and Remington "did" have Model numbers. I suppose you could go thru the "Blue Book of Gun Values" and figure out how many did and how many did not.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Bill@Yuma

I have always thought of the "Pre-" designation, as Jeremy has already put it: post war, short-action guns beginning after the long-action, "transitional" guns had run their course, and before Model marking was introduced.

It is a convenience that serves clarity even if it did not originate with the factory.

Jerry

You guys have pretty much nailed it.
"Pre Model" guns should best be reserved for post-war guns that have short actions, but no model numbers.
Model names should be used with pre-war guns.
"Transition" should only be used with post war guns made like pre-war guns with a new hammer block added ( and ribs and micro sights on Targets). (long action guns ONLY in K and N frames- I frames did not change 'length')

Merely a verbal shorthand that makes life quicker and easier. If you apply it right, I know that "Pre-10" means a "5 screw (or 4 screw), short action, 38 M&P with no model number". Less typing, less talking.

True, it is a corrupt term, but now fully legitamized with Roy's frequent usage in factory letters. Course, you could always send the letter back if the term bugs you severely.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

All.
One final comment. The Pre-Model guns seems to be those made from 1947 to about 1957. There abouts. Just a niche name that collectors have made.
What do you think the folks that bought new and used them in that time period called them??
Bill@Yuma

Even though S&W added model numbers in 1957, they kept the names of their guns at least through the early 70s. I think people who bought guns through the 60s bought a "44 Magnum" or "Combat Magnum". However, as model numbers became more commonly used, they eventually became dominant. If I use the term 44 Magnum, I am often asked if it is a Pre-29 or a 29, and that is why I routinely add that term to the description.

Bill

Lee, thanks very much. But that raises another question for me--how common were the post-war guns that still had long actions, i.e. the transitional models?

I should also add--what features other than the wider hammer spur can you look for to distinguish a long from a short action? I am curious how man of these features can be seen without inspecting the lockwork inside or removing the hammer, etc.

__________________
Aaron Terry