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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #1  
Old 06-21-2010, 01:35 AM
redwagon32 redwagon32 is offline
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Default S&W PRE-17 BRIGHT BLUE FINISH(NEW INFO-12-28-16)

I have a 1948 pre-17 with the S&W bright blue finish. It came to me without a box and the factory letter merely says blue finish (although I didn't think at the time to ask specifically whether there was any mention of special order bright blue.) The 1951 Gun Digest is the earliest mention I know of for special order bright blue for a K22 at about 10% added cost. I am wondering how unusual bright blue is for a K22 of this era. How much might it add to the value of a 98% revolver over the standard matte blue? The gun shows no evidence of refinishing.

New Info as of 12-28-16
Thanks to Roy Jinks-I have new info on this revolver showing that it was special ordered in bright blue and with original target grips. He reissued a letter to me upon my written request and found the new info somewhere. I have attached a photo of the new letter and of the gun showing the almost mirror brightness of the finish(one shows the reflection of my camera). Unfortunately, by the time I acquired it, the original target grips were replaced with much later ones and I won't be able to see if the original target grips were serial numbered to the gun(unlikely) or if it was shipped in a slightly larger gold box to fit the target grips.
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Old 06-21-2010, 06:43 AM
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Bright blue on a 48 gun is possible, but highly improbable without being a special order.

It would be wise to post pics here- good ones, especially of the grip frame without the grips.
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Old 06-21-2010, 07:52 AM
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I agree with handejector. I have 2 17's from 1948. The early one has a single address line, the other a 4 address line. Both have a matte finish. It is my understanding, mostly from this forum, that the matte finish was standard in this era, but a glossy finish was available via special order. It is entirely possible that a distributor ordered a quantity of them in glossy finish. The one thing you can be assured of with S&W is that almost anything is possible, no matter how improbable!
Post some pictures of that fine gun and let us help you determine the truth. Please post pictures including both sides of the grip frame without the grip.
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Old 06-21-2010, 08:22 AM
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I also have a one line address K22 from '48. It's matte blue. Would love to have a genuine gloss blue!
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Old 06-21-2010, 08:24 AM
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Default pre 17

I too have a glossy finish 1948 pre 17 Target Masterpiece.
I have posted pictures without grips and was shown that I have markings that "may" indictate a factory refinish. My understanding was that this was fairly popular by the late 50's.
I do not recall all the markings , but I am sure some one remembers what
to expect.
The lettering is all super sharp and it is very nicely polished and remains in about 97%-98% condition.
Another feature it has that I like is a red bead front sight.
It looks like a gold bead type , but its red and easy to pickup
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Old 06-21-2010, 06:13 PM
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I have a 1948 K-22 with a bright blue finish. It came with the original box which is marked "Bright" in grease pencil on the bottom of the box along with the serial number.



Here are a couple of photos of the bottom of the box.


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Old 06-22-2010, 12:43 AM
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That's what I love about this forum, I learn something new everyday.I didn't know about the bright blue finish or the box being marked ''Bright''.
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:07 PM
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This is my first attempt to post photos so I am hopeful it will be successful. The photos show unconnected left side butt markings of an R and a B as well as a double stamped B on the bottom of the barrel. I realize that the R and B could be Refinish Blue and that the B by the barrel serial could also be a factory refinish mark. I am assuming that the first under barrel B stamp was not deep enough and it was NOT an attempt to put BB for Bright Blue! The underside of the extractor only shows the last 4 digits of the serial. The only other unusual marking is on the butt and appears to show the very beginnings of an attempt to make a hole for a lanyard ring between the K and the remainder of the serial.

If the previous poster will confirm that his revolver does not have these markings, that pretty much settles it for me. The blueing on this revolver does show the patina of a 50+ year old revolver and the stampings are crisp. It was shipped on June 9, 1948 to the Union Hardware & Metal Co. in Los Angeles, CA. I am still not sure how unusual a bright blue finish on a late 40's and early 50's K22 is so I'll ask another question. Based on these markings, when do you think the factory reblued it?

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Old 06-23-2010, 12:33 AM
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Another attempt to post photos
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:57 AM
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Hello redwagon32
I noticed in the under barrel picture that there is an over strike of the guns original serial number being the last number now being the number 6 over the original serial number strike being 9. That would certainly indicate the guns barrel may have been replaced or worked on, but it does not make sense that the factory would over stamp a serial number like that over the original one?

I know the Other K-22 shown in bright blue finish is supposed to be from 1948 as well, But it was my Impression that all 1948 Guns came out of the factory with the new Four Line address instead of the single line address that supposedly ended in 1947.

According to MR Jinks's serial number sequece for 1948 of the K-Frame serial stamped in 1948 being - K-18732--K-73121 your revolver certainly falls into that area and I surmise it shipped in Possibly February or March of that year due to high production back then, so perhaps your's and Phil's gun's were left over 1947 frames that got serial stamped and sent out in 1948 still having the One line address..

I guess at this point ,only a $50.00 Factory letter would tell how yours left the factory, but the mystery still remains of just why it has it's under Barrel serial number Over struck with a different number, Than the Guns Original serial number ?

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Old 06-23-2010, 11:26 AM
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The lighting makes it look that way but in person it is clear that the last digit is a 9 with an earlier strike of a 6 or a 9 die held reversed. Since the worker also double struck the B, maybe he was just not feeling strong that day! The factory letter simply says that the finish was blue. Hoping to have High Standard Guy chime in.
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:18 PM
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redwagon32, I will pull the gun out tomorrow and look under the grips to check the markings. If I recall the gun shipped in March of 1948, I will check the letter for the particulars.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:40 AM
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Here are the photos of the grip frame on my gun, don't see anything unusual. The serial number of the gun is K 19750 and it shipped on May 27, 1948 to Miami. No mention in the letter of the bright finish.



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Old 06-24-2010, 10:50 AM
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I was always under the impression that the bright blueing of post war guns didn't start until 1955?
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:06 PM
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Thank you, HSGuy! Is the stamp on the left side of the butt an R or a B? I assume there is nothing under the barrel except for the serial.

Stumper-the 1951 Gun Digest is the first mention I know of that bright blue was available for a pre-17
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Old 06-24-2010, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwagon32 View Post
Thank you, HSGuy! Is the stamp on the left side of the butt an R or a B? I assume there is nothing under the barrel except for the serial.

Stumper-the 1951 Gun Digest is the first mention I know of that bright blue was available for a pre-17
You are welcome. That is a R on the frame which I assume to be an inspector or fitters mark. Nothing unusual under the barrel.

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Old 06-24-2010, 03:27 PM
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Interesting, a few years earlier than I thought. Maybe 1955 was the year that everything was changed to bright??
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Old 06-24-2010, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerdown View Post
I know the Other K-22 shown in bright blue finish is supposed to be from 1948 as well, But it was my Impression that all 1948 Guns came out of the factory with the new Four Line address instead of the single line address that supposedly ended in 1947.

According to MR Jinks's serial number sequece for 1948 of the K-Frame serial stamped in 1948 being - K-18732--K-73121 your revolver certainly falls into that area and I surmise it shipped in Possibly February or March of that year due to high production back then, so perhaps your's and Phil's gun's were left over 1947 frames that got serial stamped and sent out in 1948 still having the One line address..
The order for the 4 line address was issued a few months into 48 according to Roy, and took a while to work thru the system.



Quote:
Originally Posted by redwagon32 View Post
The lighting makes it look that way but in person it is clear that the last digit is a 9 with an earlier strike of a 6 or a 9 die held reversed. Since the worker also double struck the B, maybe he was just not feeling strong that day! The factory letter simply says that the finish was blue. Hoping to have High Standard Guy chime in.
Number sets only have one stamp for a 6 and 9- you turn it over. Not too hard to imagine turning it the wrong way now and then, even though they probably had the stamps racked in a straight row with a separate stamp for a 6 and a 9 just to keep it simple- that's how I would set it up. Still, turning one the wrong way is not hard to imagine.



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Interesting, a few years earlier than I thought. Maybe 1955 was the year that everything was changed to bright??
Pretty much correct.
We see the high polish phased in on all the Masterpieces right at the end of the 5 screw era- in the 250-260,000's.

The earliest All Model Circulars after the war list the 357 Magnum as having "S&W Blue". These are the AMC's from 45 and 46. They very soon changed the AMC's to show the Magnum in "Bright Blue". Apparently, they decided the cadilac of the line shouldn't be put out in satin blue. They MAY have made some Mags in satin, but I know the Transition Mags I have seen were all Bright, so we know they were doing SOME high polish in the late 40's.
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Old 06-24-2010, 06:26 PM
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You are welcome. That is a R on the frame which I assume to be an inspector or fitters mark. Nothing unusual under the barrel.


I think you guys have hit upon something significant here-

That large B
I don't recall seeing that size and that font in that location.
I HAVE to wonder if THAT denotes "Bright".
Are you SURE that is an R on your gripframe?
Is there the same B on back of the cyl?
Every time I have ever seen a B under a barrel or in a shroud that simply denoted "Blue", it has been the same size as the numbers, NOT larger, and it was a plain font with no seriphs.

Here is the barrel flat on my K-22, which is the standard satin finish-
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Old 06-24-2010, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handejector View Post
I think you guys have hit upon something significant here-

That large B
I don't recall seeing that size and that font in that location.
I HAVE to wonder if THAT denotes "Bright".
Are you SURE that is an R on your gripframe?
Is there the same B on back of the cyl?
Every time I have ever seen a B under a barrel or in a shroud that simply denoted "Blue", it has been the same size as the numbers, NOT larger, and it was a plain font with no seriphs.

Here is the barrel flat on my K-22, which is the standard satin finish-
Lee, I will look again tonight or tomorrow. I should know better than to trust my eyes. When you see me in Tucson I will be the one with the big magnifying glass.
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Old 06-24-2010, 06:47 PM
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Lee, I will look again tonight or tomorrow. I should know better than to trust my eyes. When you see my in Tucson I will be the one with the big magnifying glass.
I blew it up. It IS an R on the gripframe.
I still wonder if that large B is on the cyl......
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:49 PM
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Personally, I wonder what is marked on the grip frame and under the barrel of PattonTime's revolver.
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Old 06-25-2010, 12:18 AM
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Lee, nothing unusual on the rear of the cylinder. You can see the reflection of the cylinder on the frame indicating the high degree of polishing.

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Old 06-25-2010, 06:58 AM
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John,
IF there, it would be under the extractor.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:00 AM
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Thanks Lee, the large B is there, very interesting. I also have included a couple of better shots of the gun.



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Old 06-26-2010, 12:30 PM
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Well, it is sure looking like the large B was to denote BRIGHT to the polishers.
I wonder how they knew to put a bright polish on the frames??
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Old 06-26-2010, 01:29 PM
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At the risk of adding less clarity, I attach photos of my pre-27 in Bright Blue which shipped in 1952 and has the large B with serifs stamped sideways in the barrel shroud. However, a capitol B without serifs is stamped under the extractor and on the left side of the frame. My pre-17 has the large B with serifs double stamped under the barrel and also on the left side of the frame(see attached photo). It has no B stamped under the extractor.

Of course, the policy on stamping for Bright Blue may have been evolving, not fully implemented or fully understood by the workers. We have all worked at places where Al won't walk 20 feet to get the capitol B with serifs stamp from Joe because Joe has always been the foreman's favorite and gets all the special polishing jobs whereas if the truth be known, Al is just as good, etc.
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  #28  
Old 06-26-2010, 09:00 PM
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It may just be confusion with learning the system as you say.
What number range is your 357?
What number range is the 22, and is it bright?

Some thoughts-
By 55-56, the whole line was becoming bright blue as standard, EXCEPT the Hwy Patr. However, the Pre 27 was ALWAYS bright, so why stamp the B? The frames and barrels were easily identified by the checkering. Is it to differemtiate from nickel? Probably not, because the nickel parts had N's stamped, so why stamp all those B's? Never pay people to do stuff you don't need.

Hmmmmmmm
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:01 PM
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It looks to me like handejector is right about the large B on the barrel flat being the factory marking for bright blue along with a B on the frame for K22s from the late 1930's to at least 1952. At about 1955 all Masterpieces went to the more polished blue and the markings do not appear.
A Forum member found the two markings on his bright blue K22s -one an Outdoorsman from the late 1930's(674xxx) and the other from 1940(682xxx). The markings did not appear on his satin finished K22's(K117xx), K69xxx)(K123xxx) or on his 1955 bright finished models.
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:55 PM
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Redwagon32 - That would be consistent with my 5 screw K-22 in bright blue, K258xxx, shipped in 1955. No "B" markings. I had wondered if it had been refinshed, but the metal, fit and logo do not appear to be.

I have a letter request pending, so it will be interesting to see how it left the factory. I put a comment on the request about the finish.
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Old 07-04-2010, 06:51 PM
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Redmond-Both HSguy and I have letters for our Bright Blue 1948 pre-17's and both just say blue finish. Since HSguy has the factory box marked Bright, maybe they just didn't record the Bright Blue for some reason.
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Old 07-06-2010, 08:08 AM
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I have a "transition" 1955 5-screw K-22 Serial K 2413XX with the "speed hammer", tapered barrel, the high gloss "Bright" finish and the charcoal gray "transition" box.

It has no markings under the barrel, under the left side grips or under the extractor indicating the "Bright" finish.







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  #33  
Old 07-06-2010, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwagon32 View Post
It looks to me like handejector is right about the large B on the barrel flat being the factory marking for bright blue along with a B on the frame for K22s from the late 1930's to at least 1952. At about 1955 all Masterpieces went to the more polished blue and the markings do not appear.
A Forum member found the two markings on his bright blue K22s -one an Outdoorsman from the late 1930's(674xxx) and the other from 1940(682xxx). The markings did not appear on his satin finished K22's(K117xx), K69xxx)(K123xxx) or on his 1955 bright finished models.
Apples and oranges.
We are used to seeing a B on pre-war guns. The large B on the Bright blue 5 screw post-war guns is what is puzzling us here.
In most eras, pre-war blue guns have the B's stamped on them. Post-war, it is more unusual.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmond View Post
Redwagon32 - That would be consistent with my 5 screw K-22 in bright blue, K258xxx, shipped in 1955. No "B" markings. I had wondered if it had been refinshed, but the metal, fit and logo do not appear to be.

I have a letter request pending, so it will be interesting to see how it left the factory. I put a comment on the request about the finish.
As I say above, by 55, Bright blue was being phased into the whole product line. Most LATE 5 screw guns are Bright. IF the large B stood for 'Bright', there would no longer be a need to use it once they ALL became bright.
K guns in the 250,000's become far more common in Bright, and by the 260,000's the Satin blue is not seen much, if any.




Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade2x View Post
I have a "transition" 1955 5-screw K-22 Serial K 2413XX with the "speed hammer", tapered barrel, the high gloss "Bright" finish and the charcoal gray "transition" box.

It has no markings under the barrel, under the left side grips or under the extractor indicating the "Bright" finish.
Not sure why you call your gun a Transition. The term does not really apply to post-war Masterpieces. There are a few varieties, but not really a Transition.
Again, the later 5 screws all became Bright as standard, so there was no need to stamp the B's.
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  #34  
Old 07-06-2010, 09:03 AM
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I refer to it as a "transition" in reference to the "blue-grey" box it was shipped in. It's considered a "transition" box between the gold and blue lettered ones and the gloss blue ones.

Have fun and be safe.
Nightshade2x








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  #35  
Old 07-06-2010, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade2x View Post
I refer to it as a "transition" in reference to the "blue-grey" box it was shipped in. It's considered a "transition" box between the gold and blue lettered ones and the gloss blue ones.
That is why I fight the OVER-use of the word "Transition".
Using your logic, they are all Transitions-

The brown boxes of the early 20th century were "Transitions" from the earlier green.
The maroon then becomes a Transition from the brown.
The Gold is a Transition from the maroon.
Your box.
Then, the later gloss blue is a Transition to the one-piece.
Then, the one-piece is a Transition to the plastic..........
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  #36  
Old 07-06-2010, 09:25 AM
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Whatever handejector...sheesh..

Have fun and be safe.
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  #37  
Old 07-07-2010, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade2x View Post
Whatever handejector...sheesh..

Have fun and be safe.
Nightshade2x
'Scuse me. I should not be so rude as to throw fact and logic at a subjective statement.

Please accept these apples along with my apology......
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  #38  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:22 AM
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redwagon32,

I have a K-22 Masterpiece that is bright blue. It does have the upper case B under the barrel and under the ejector. "Made in the USA" one line frame, it was shipped in Nov. 1948. In the letter it took the factory 10 months to prepare the "special finish".

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  #39  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:42 AM
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I'm a recovering .22aholic and you guys are not helping me at all!!!! Boxes-many colors- "transitions"-them apples are for you Lee , bright, standard blue, narrow rib, speed hammer,..............Sweet Haysoos!! Someone get me a .22 NOW!!!!!!
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  #40  
Old 05-07-2012, 01:56 AM
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I need to find me something with a big "B" on it. I like collecting factory markings you know. Although I suppose I should check the stuff I got already as there might be one in there. I wonder why I didn't see this thread two years ago?
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:04 PM
Walter Rego Walter Rego is offline
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What about a high polish blue option for the K-38 ? I have one with the narrow rib, serial # in the K75,000 range and shipped in June of 1949 and another, Heavy Barrel, in the K232,000 range that shipped in May of 1955. Both are high polish blue, neither have the large B in the locations noted earlier in this thread.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:35 PM
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I'd like to see some pics in full size like from photobucket or one of those other picture hosting sites. This gun is sticking in my brain...............---wallet is tightening...............
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  #43  
Old 05-09-2012, 11:24 PM
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That Bright blue "B" theory sounds very plausible.
While my 1955 K22 serial K250,000 in high polish may be a bit too late for it my high polish Pre 27 Serial S 96191 shipped Feb 1953 does have the "B" on the barrel inside the ejector rod shroud .
Will have to inspect more early 50's guns tomorrow.
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  #44  
Old 07-31-2012, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
The underside of the extractor only shows the last 4 digits of the serial
I think that you will find that if you spin the extractor clockwise from where you see the last 4 digits of the serial number you will find the rest of the numbers. IIRC

For those that don't know and might care, you can also find the serial number on the yoke by looking at it through one of the charge holes in the cylinder. (Use a good light)

I think that the 6/9 of the serial number was as others have explained, OPERATOR ERROR. These guns were built and assembled by humans and humans make mistakes. Unless the mistake affected the function or performance, the gun was shipped. S&W was interested in making money, not collectors items. Many times we collectors want everything tied up in neat little bundles. This event occurred on THIS date at THIS serial number. It was shipped with THIS finish and in THIS box. When it comes to making money, none of this meant a hoot to the owners of S&W. We can get close but nothing will ever be exact. Even a process that they might have stopped doing was probably still available to a customer willing to pay for it.
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  #45  
Old 07-31-2012, 09:26 PM
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The serial on the barrel with the 6/9 overstamp is right as rain!
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  #46  
Old 07-31-2012, 11:16 PM
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New guy here. For what it's worth, I'll throw this in to confuse the issue. My "one liner" SN 20,918 shipped May 20 1948. It has a bright blue finish and a "B" marked on the barrel flat, but the letter from Mr. Jinks makes no mention of the bright finish, let alone it being a special order.

This gives new meaning to the term "Ignorance is bliss." For the 40 years I've owned this one, I've thought they all had a bright finish. Thanks to all for providing the info that is shared here.
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  #47  
Old 12-28-2016, 07:01 PM
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New info added in first post
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  #48  
Old 12-28-2016, 07:18 PM
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This has to be one of the all time great threads here.
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  #49  
Old 12-28-2016, 07:36 PM
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Thanks for the update, interesting "One Liner" special ordered in Bright blue and shipped with factory target stocks on (6/9/48) too !
Too bad those stocks were lost as the early ones with the built in plastic adapter almost never pop up for sale

I would double check with Roy that your gun shipped with "Target stocks" or if he meant Walnut Magna stocks to be 100% certain ,
IIRC it pre dates the earliest gun we have seen with the target stock option by around a year.

Even though this thread is several years old wanted to comment that while satin blue is usually found on narrow rib K-22's the "Bight Blue" becomes standard beginning sometime in 1954 and is the norm by 1955 so Nightshades K22 doesnt surprise me in the Bright blue because of its 1955 ship date , We hardly ever see them pop up except as special orders as the narrow rib was supplanted by the new wider rib version in 1955 IIRC.

On a side note we also never see the wider rib K-22's in satin blue because they began shipping in very late 1954 to early 1955 when bright blue was standard.

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  #50  
Old 12-28-2016, 07:36 PM
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That was some great news you got! Congrats.
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