M&P Early Model 5 Screw

stanmerrell · #1 07-26-2010, 01:18 AM

Hi Folks,
This revolver has an unfortunate albeit interesting history. It belonged to a close friend whose father who was a Psychiatrist in San Francisco. The Psychiatrist confiscated it from a client that was being treated for depression. Unfortunately, when the Psychiatrist gave it back to the poor man after he was deemed cured, he went ahead and used it to commit suicide during a period of depression. Somehow it came back to my friend's dad and he gave it to my friend. My friend was on the water board in the Central CA Valley and used to carry it when he provided shares of water to the farmer's irrigation systems. He said they were all polite when he was armed. my mom owned it after he passed, and the other day she gave it to me. I wonder when it was made? It has a pitted barrel and cylinder which I would like to replace. I plan to reblue it. I'm not concerned about collector value or refinishing an original piece, since I will enjoy it much more if it is restored. Thanks.

murphydog · #2 07-26-2010, 01:37 AM

Hi, and welcome. If you can give a partial number from the bottom of the grip frame (123xxx) we can tell you when it was shipped, but if the stocks are original to the gun they date the gun to between 1900 and 1910. You didn't mention the caliber, but the gun is a Military & Police, either in .32/20 or .38 Special. If you plan on firing it, restrict it to lighter loads. Hope this is helpful.

DCWilson · #3 07-26-2010, 01:38 AM

Welcome to the forum. That gun could be from the 19-teens or even earlier. Can you give us a serial number from the butt of the gun? Also, what is the last patent date mentioned in the three line patent roster on the barrel? And on the other side of the barrel, what cartridge or cartridges are identified as proper for the revolver?

I won't try to argue you out of refinishing a gun that you want to look better (though I wish you wouldn't), but please get a good evaluation of the current quality of the surface before you commit to the project. If there is pitting that runs fairly deep, making that look good will require a degree of polishing that will erase or leave shallow most of the stampings, not to mention leaving the frame looking sort of rounded and unnatural.

It is no lack of respect to leave alone a firearm with a lot of history on its surface, even the tragic history of this particular revolver. I invite you to reflect on whether refinishing is a proper course of action in this case. It would probably cost more than the gun is worth. Before putting that much money out, you might want to consider selling it and buying a similar revolver in much better shape to start with. If you want to keep this one because of the association with a family friend, by all means do so. But I would feel I was not treating your interest or the gun with sufficient respect if I didn't ask you to reconsider your plans for it.

But refinishing questions aside, let us know the extra data and we'll narrow in on the exact model and its likely manufacturing date.

Big Lou · #4 07-26-2010, 01:42 AM

Hi

Welcome to the forum. If you provide the first 3 or so numbers of the serial number located stamped on the bottom of the frame, it would help in identifying your M&P.

Also I know you mentioned you wanted to refinish the gun. It's your gun, so of course you're free to do whatever you want with it. However, I would respectfully suggest leaving it as is. Your just don't own an old S&W, you own a piece of history.

Knowing the detailed history of older guns such as yours is rare. I would document all the history known about the gun, give it a good cleaning and pack it away in the safe. Like it passed to you from older generations, you should do the same with it in your family.

Again welcome to the forum & thanks for sharing.

stanmerrell · #5 07-26-2010, 01:47 AM

Thanks kindly. Sorry I neglected to mention the serial number from under the grip is 93XXX. Caliber is 38 Special. I don't feel there is much collector value to this piece, and they're relatively common, so it seems okay to alter the piece to my way of thinking. Much appreciated.

murphydog · #6 07-26-2010, 02:03 AM

Probably made in 1906.

Gary7 · #7 07-26-2010, 08:22 AM

Refinishing that gun would be a crying shame. JMHO.

gunlovingirl · #8 07-26-2010, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary7

Refinishing that gun would be a crying shame. JMHO.

+1 on what he said. Especially with the known history behind it.

Ernie · #9 07-26-2010, 09:14 AM

stanmerrell,
That's a neat vintage revolver. The "suicide" story is interesting, (and unfortunate), but the real history is that it belonged to your Dad and he carried it on the job. Great memories for you whenever you handle the gun. I'm with you on refinishing it, if it means it will enhance your enjoyment of this revolver for many years to come.

diamonback68 · #10 07-26-2010, 09:36 AM

If you re-finish it, you erase the history. It's not the same gun.

mikepriwer · #11 07-26-2010, 11:47 AM

You have one of the more interesting guns that S&W made.

The gun is a 1905 1st change, in the collector terminology, and was
probably shipped in 1907 , plus/minus a year. It has two features
that did not last all that long.

First, the patent-date roll markings on the right side of the barrel
on 4" guns lasted from about 1903 through 1915, or so. In 1903,
the barrel design was changed, to incorporate the rounded shoulder
on the barrel, at the point where the barrel meets the frame. The
earlier barrel design was a straight linear taper, from one end to the
other. Becase of the shoulder, there was not enough room on the top
of the barrel, between the rear face of the front sight base, and the
frame, for the roll markings. The factory was not yet ready to order
a new die, just for 4" barrels, so they roll-marked the barrels on the
right side. Sometime around 1915, they replaced the die with a shorter
one, that fit the space on top of the barrel.

Second, the nob on the end of the extractor rod is threaded on to the
extractor rod. Some few years later, that design was changed to a
smaller-diameter nob, made integral with the extractor rod.

There are other significant features on this gun that are important
to collectors, but these are the two that are most obvious. Replacing
that barrel with one from the same era will be very difficult, if not
impossible. The same problem applies to the cylinder. Most likely,
you will wind up with much later parts.

The gun does have collectible value. If that aspect of the gun is of
no interest to you, you should consider selling it to someone who
can appreciate it for what it is, and buy yourself something else.

Pitting is not a serious problem. It can be neutralized, and stablilized
with reasonable care. Or, in the hands of a competent gunsmith,
who will try to preserve those early roll-markings, the gun can be
reblued.

The gun is important, and there are not a lot of them still in
existence, with those early desireable features.

Mike Priwer

Gary7 · #12 07-26-2010, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

You have one of the more interesting guns that S&W made.
The gun does have collectible value. If that aspect of the gun is of
no interest to you, you should consider selling it to someone who
can appreciate it for what it is, and buy yourself something else.

Bullseye.

DWFAN · #13 07-27-2010, 06:39 PM

Listen to Mr. Priwer. You can still shoot it with appropriate ammunition and enjoy what was left to you. I wouldn't touch it.

DW

MP1983 · #14 07-27-2010, 07:02 PM

that is waaayyyy too neat & ORIGINAL an old gun to change or alter...it's a 100 years old!!!....why don't some of you fellas here at the forum share some ideas on what this gentleman could do to clean it up (I believe it has a half century or more of grime on it), and recommend some ammo it could tolerate....I have my own ideas but all my S&W's are post-war...I can say for sure you need to start by removing the grips & get ready to give it some serious TLC

JSR III · #15 07-27-2010, 07:12 PM

Just as a point of correction, the gun did not belong to "his" father, it belonged to the father of his friend. So though there is some history connection, it is by no means a family heirloom. (If I am reading and interpreting correctly)

I would shoot the gun as is or I would sell it to a collector who values the age of the gun and its features regardless of condition and will give it a good home.

Again as others have stated, it is your gun and you may do with it what you choose. However, as has also been stated, they just aren't making them like this any more and if you are just looking for something to go bang, there are alternatives. Perhaps a trade with someone. JMHO

crofoot629 · #16 07-27-2010, 08:07 PM

Great gun, I love the 4" pre-wars and a 1st change to boot!

This is a Smith&Wesson gun forum, we like old revolvers.

It looks great the way it is, refinished would be a boat load of yuck to me.
Your gun your money, but if you want a classy revolver you already have one.

And Mike, thanks for your knowledgeable reply.

Emory

H P Bushrod · #17 07-27-2010, 08:11 PM

I wouldn't refinish the gun. To me it would be worth more to a S&W fan (like me) as-is. Thanks for sharing it's history with us.

MP1983 · #18 07-27-2010, 08:55 PM

Quote:

why don't some of you fellas here at the forum share some ideas on what this gentleman could do to clean it up (I believe it has a half century or more of grime on it), and recommend some ammo it could tolerate....I have my own ideas but all my S&W's are post-war...I can say for sure you need to start by removing the grips & get ready to give it some serious TLC

I posted this and said I have my own ideas, well here goes it....I invite any and all opinions to the contrary....

as stated, remove the grips and lay down some newspaper - thick - then, get some break free solvent/lubricant, a .38 bore brush w/ cleaning rod, an old toothbrush (rinsed & dry), and begin by soaking the snot out of the barrel, every chamber of yhe cylinder, and the entire exterior (including frame where the grips go & the mainspring)...also, lock the hammer back (w/ cylinder shut) and spray down into the hammer well & turn it over to spray under the trigger...let the hammer drop, spray a little more CLP (that's Break Free - I think Winchester owns & distributes it now) all over it & in the bore & chambers again, and let it sit 24 hrs...

then, for no less than 3 days hit it every night (assuming you work during the day) with the break free the same way, only now go at the bore & chambers with the bore brush; and, scrub the exterior & shell extractor and every knook & cranny and flat spot with the toothbrush (keeping it moist with break free)....do this for as many days as you believe necessary to knock off the dirt, grime and light surface rust (but like I say, no less than 3)....

if you have any bad rust spots on the exterior...a very well known & respected gun seller in Houston (Jerry Fountain, God rest his soul) showed me a trick...I had a 1922 Colt Police Positive (still do) marked ACPD on the back strap (Atlantic City Police Dept) which had ridden around under the front seat of a pickup for about 20 years and was rough but only had one really bad rust spot...Jerry said, "I can show you how to get rid of it if you want me too," I said, "sure" and he said "okay, but you got to trust me 'cause it's gonna look like I'm trying to scratch it all up," I said "okay" and he proceeded to take a spent brass shell and scratch the rust right off of there (a spot about the size of a dime or a little smaller)...he went on to explain the rust is softer than the brass but the good steel underneath isn't...it works like a charm...there's no bluing left to salvage under rust, and this completely does away with the rust... doesn't look the greatest but it looks better than rust! I did this recently with an old Ruger Police Service Six, and used a .30-06 shell so I could hold it like a pencil and just get the rust spot, nothing more...it worked very well...(this is old school, but it works!)

after you get it good and clean, get some Hoppes oil (not solvent) and work the action (trigger & hammer) by locking the hammer to the rear & putting a couple drops like before in both hammer well & under the trigger...dry fire it some to work the oil in....open the cylinder, oil the extractor rod & extractor...then oil the main spring real well along with the chambers, bore, and over all exterior...then wipe it down and put the grips back on...now it's clean & good to go!

that's what I'd do if it was mine...

H Richard · #19 07-28-2010, 10:31 AM

My recommendation would be to find a competent collector/gunsmith and have it disassembled and cleaned. The small investment will pay off over time. Excessive lubricant will attract more dirt and grime over time.

stanmerrell · #20 07-30-2010, 12:11 AM

Thanks very much for all your help and advice. Nice forum you have here. I'll consider what you've all had to say about refinishing. Here's another picture of my friends personal effects. It was an honor to have known him. Like the gun, they don't make folks like him anymore...

kwbikr · #21 07-30-2010, 11:13 AM

In anything old with history (including people) there is visable evidence of what got that thing to the present condition. Sometimes things with little history of anything but abuse respond well to reconditioning, sometimes they don't (think: Kenny Roger's eye work).

Your wonderful story is evident when you look at that great picture of the personal effects...a gun with a bright, fresh finish would look out of place in that scene IMO...

Many have pretty guns, few have real pieces of interesting history...my vote is enjoy it with it's current beauty...