My dad bought this off a state trooper along with a model 58 .41 magnum about 35 years ago. We have had this gun all these years, and I just had to fire it. Ordered some .455 shells and took it to the range to fire about 18 rounds through it. It was accurate and a real pleasure to shoot.

I have the original grips with the hook on the bottom. Someone told us in the past it was for night watchmen to be able to carry lanterns while holding their guns. Don't know if that is correct or not.

Anyway, I thought I would share some pics. When you open the cylinder up it has 1541 and on the back of the cylinder is the number 618. I apologize for the size of the pics, I did not know how to make them icons.

Revolver is a Smith and Wesson Large Frame Revolver.
Caliber of this Revolver is .455 Webley.
The "Hook" at the bottom of the grip is a "Lanyard Ring" for attaching a cord that attaches to the lanyard and the other end of the cord is a loop that going around the shooters neck or shoulder.
Your Revolver is likely a Military sidearm.

A Triplelock in 455 Webley is rather rare isn't it?

The fact that this 455 Webley hasn't been converted adds to the value. Congrats that is a nice piece.

I had to do some research on what a triple lock is. I found it and yes it is. I do not plan on ever parting with this gun, but out of curiosity, can anyone give me a ballpark on what it might be worth. The reason I am asking, is in case I wanted to add extra insurance on it.

Thanks to everyone for educating me and the compliments on the gun.

I believe there were approx. 5,666 triplelocks made in .455 cal.

There was a separate runs of 5,000 and 666 (could be slightly higher or lower) were assembled from triplelocks that were going to be originally 44 specials.

There is serial number duplication on some(or all, I'm not sure) of the triplelocks from these two runs.

As for value, while more triplelocks were made in 44 special as opossed to 455, the 44 specials seem to be more more desirable. I'll let more knowlegable "pricing" folks chime in as I'm out of touch with prices these days.

I know an average triplelock in 44 spe. would likely bring $1000-$1500.

Hard to tell from the lighting in your photos, but the finish looks original.

Of likely the serial number is 618 (as on the cylinder). To be sure the bottom of the grip shouls have a serial # as well. The number you see when the cylinder is open is likely a parts assembly number. Another place to look for a serial number is inside the ejector shroud when you have the cylinder open.

Overall nice gun. Oh your original post mentioned a model 58 as well. Nice pair.

Dave

Prices for triplelocks have been skyrocketing. It used to be that the .455 Webley TL was the red-haired stepchild of TLs, due to the odd-ball caliber... so it went for the least money.

I think that is going away, however, as people are buying them to collect them, not shoot them, so what difference does its chambering make (at least as long as it is original)?

In your shoes, I would insure it for at least $2,000, but I don't know if you could replace it for that. I saw one in 98% condition on a well-known collector's website with an asking price of almost $4,000. The value of yours depends of course on condition and originality.

I would love to see pictures that show all the markings. I think I detect "crossed pennants" (a British proof mark) on the frame near the barrel. It may well have served in WWI. If you can't get pictures, a good verbal description of the markings is the next best thing.

Congrats on a great revolver with some real collector value!

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

Jack chimed in and is probably closer in value estimate, especailly for insurance purposes.

However I think $4,000 for a 455 triplelock is pretty crazy. There's always some increase in value for a gun with "provenance". That is one that can be documented as having been owned by a ranking officer that saw action in WWI.

Still curious as to whether serial number 618 shows up in other parts of the gun. All matching serial numbers are important to the overall value of the gun.

Dave

You could sell that gun to anybody for $1500 in the next five minutes and for quite a bit more if you were willing to wait a few days for a buyer. Listen to Mr. Flash about rarity; these things really are going up in value (though I think the $4000 price tag was over-reaching). First of all, there were only about 20,000 Triple Locks made before the complicated and expensive additional production costs forced discontinuation of the pattern. Most are in .44 Special and were made for commercial sale, but as you heard from Dave, about 6000 were produced under a British contract in .455. The .455s were separately numbered, so yours is one of the first few hundred made. It probably dates to October of 1914.

You know that those are not the original stocks. If you remove them, you should find additional proof marks under the wood on the left side.

The 1451 would be a process control number stamped on the frame under the yoke. Ignore it. As Dave said, the serial number is 618, which you should also see stamped inside the ejector shroud under the barrel and on the butt of the gun once you get the stocks off. It will also be in a couple of other places that are harder to see.

You are extremely fortunate to have this gun. I lucked into a .455 TL a few months ago (S/N 358, so another early one) that I got for a little under a thousand. It is in similar condition but was converted to .45 Long Colt after returning from Great Britain. It is very cool that you have an unmodified British contract TL. Congratulations.

Here's a pic of mine to keep your gun company. These are the original stocks, so this is what yours looked like when it shipped.

__________________
David Wilson

Thanks for the pics gents, they are truely beautiful examples. Have been keeping my eyes open for a long time for a triple lock, but few and far between in Australia. 44spl or original 455 would be fine.

Dave,

You and I posted about the same time so I didn't see your comments until after I posted. Still, I personsally would certainly insure it for $2,000. I think that $1,000 to $1,500 may be more like the price range for one that has been converted to .45 ACP or .45 Colt or has serious condition issues. Just my opinion and I've been known to be wrong at least once.

As for the $4k figure, this is the asking price for one on-line. I did not say they are going like hotcakes for that price, but I'll bet someone eventually pays it. That "someone" will have deeper pockets than I!

Note that Mr. Oaklands stated that he has the original stocks and butt swivel. If the finish is original (a big "if" but it looks like it may be from the pix), well, that really enhances the value. So few of these have survived in original condition... when a collector does encounter one, he manages to find the money one way or another.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

Thank you for the replies. I will take it to work with me today and take the grips off. Also, I will take some close up pics to post.

Super! We all love pix!

One thing to make sure about:
You said you shot some .455 with it recently. I am hoping the stuff you fired is / was modern stuff, like Hornady or the like.

Please beware that what the Brits used to shoot in these back in the day was highly corrosive / erosive. Not to mention that the old surplus rounds are probably worth something in their own right to an ammo collector.

A thorough but gentle cleaning would not hurt, no matter what you shot in it.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

Yes it was Hornady I shot. All my guns get a good cleaning after going to the range.

I took the grips off and the serial matches the back of the cylinder at #618. I brought my camera to work and wouldn't you know, as soon as I fired it up it said the batteries were low. Will get some later today.

There is a small area of rust on the outside of the barrel at the end on the left hand side. I have rubbed it down with some oil, but it needs more protection. What would any of you suggest? I was thinking about applying a small amount of Naval jelly to the area. I know it will turn black but it is supposed to keep the rust in check. I don't want to do any sanding. Thoughts?

Thank you.

Do not apply naval jelly. it will remove the bluing and will pit the steel.
for now, just some remoil or the like until you can have it evaluated.
no steel wool, either.

Glad to hear you didn't shoot some of that nasty old cordite fodder through it. Hornady or Fiocchi shouldn't cause much worry.

I don't know anything about Naval Jelly, so I will defer to Nicky on that. He is also right that over enthusiastic cleaning may do more harm than good.

If it was mine, I would oil it and perhaps put a dab of gun grease on the rusty spot, then wait for an expert to chime in with furthur clean up directions.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

Oaklands,
I have probably a “shipping box” brother of your .455 TL. Mine is serial #718 and was shipped from the factory on 10/21/1914 and sent to Remington Arms UMC, NY,NY. (They were the purchasing agents for the British Gvmt.)
As an aside, its “duplicate” serial numbered gun was a .44 Special shipped in 1908.

Now, for the good and bad on mine….

Good: It’s still in .455 and it’s in pretty nice shape

Good: It’s been engraved with the original owner’s name. (See pictures)

Good: I have it's original holster.

Bad: At some later time the name was removed by taking a shallow end mill cut across the name. The name has been recovered by using a bead blaster to raise the lettering. Unfortunately, the masking done around the cut wasn’t large enough to protect some of the finish from the beads. (See pictures)

Good: I have documented the original owner as a Doctor in the Royal Army Medical Corps that served in a Field Ambulance (our equivalent to a forward aid unit) in France from 1915 until 1918. He was once “Mentioned in Despatches” and was later awarded the Military Cross.

I’m still trying to track him after the war, but am not having much luck, so far.

Anyway, what’s the general opinion? Is the partially messed up finish offset by the provenance? Does the combination add to or detract from value?

Attached Images

	TL1A.jpg (219.3 KB, 138 views)
	TL2.jpg (210.7 KB, 149 views)

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Dean, I think it's a zero sum situation. Too bad the finish was compromised, but the recovered name of the original carrier is a big plus. If you can get other details on his post-war life, that would just make the total package that much more appealing.

The loss and recovery of the name is now part of the history of the revolver.

__________________
David Wilson

Deadlin,

I plan on getting the original paperwork from S&W. However, that will probably be as far as I can go since there is no name engraved in mine. It is neat owning a piece of history from WW I.

Here are the other pictures requested.


Shows the Triple Lock.


Shows the model number

The serial number on the frame


The serial number on the back of the cylinder and marking. Also has a marking at the base of the barrel.

Thanks to everyone for the helpful information.

Those smooth factory rosewood (?) target stocks alone are worth a bit, too. And they should feel good in your hand.

This is a very desirable gun. Having those grips makes it really special, although a collector would prefer the original stocks/grips. But some will pay at least a couple of hundred just for the grips!

I think Hornady and Fiochhi still load .455 ammo.

Your gun was at one time Crown property, but if it doesn't have what looks like an arrowhead marked on it (Broad Arrow), it wasn't issued to troops as govt. property. It was sold Out of Stores to an individual officer.

I got quite a laugh out of your story about the lanyard ring and lanterns! Someone was either very ignorant or was having you on when they told you that tale! Think of pictures that you've probably seen of Canadian Mounties. Remember that lanyard that goes from their gun to their neck? It was to keep the gun from being lost if knocked from the owner's hand or to keep it from falling into a river, etc.

Take care of that gun. It is history in your hand, and is probably as fine an example of revolver craftsmanship as was ever made. The stocks alone are very worthwhile to have!

Oh: if you find a Broad Arrow, but it is enclosed in a capital "C", the gun was supplied to Canadian forces.

T-Star
P.S. Just saw your later pics, which are pretty bad. But the name Smith & Wesson doesn't even show on the barrel?! That is a LOT of polish before rebluing. Can someone with a better camera and photographic skills show the barrel, where the name should be?

Nice. I have a Colt New Service in .455 Eley with British marks.

Hi:
Those are impressive grips.
Jimmy

Though not the triple lock, I have two of the next series, the HE Mk II. One in 0.455 and the other bored through for 0.45 with the cylinder faced off. However, 0.45 AR with a 0.454 255 grain bullet makes it an accurate pistol, as good as its 0.455 sibling (which I also reload for using 0.455 Mk II brass from Graf's). It is Hornady brass, but you cannot buy it from them. Dave_n

Texas Star, I could not get a good light to get it to show up. Inside, the flash would be to bright and I didn't have a good place outside to take it as I was at the office by myself. I will try to take a better pic and get it up next week.

Mkk41, nice gun. This has turned out to be a very interesting thread. I really learn a lot from people on the S&W forum. Everyone is always willing to chime in and give you information. I wish all forums were like this.

BTW, I have a friend who does the books for a gun store. They have 3 or 4 great gunsmiths there. I believe it is best for them to take a look at the rust issue.

In refernce to Smith and Wesson not showing on the barrel, I seem to remember that "some" barrels had no markings on them.

I know for sure there are 455s that had no caliber markings on the barrel but not 100% sure about Smith and Wesson.

My failing memory tells me I saw a triplelock in a store once that was a 455 but had neither Smith and Wesson nor caliber markings on the barrel.

Someone else chime in please. If my memory is correct, this may not be a refinish.

Dave

Dave,
Your memory hasn't failed you...........yet.

My .455 TL has nothing on the barrel other than the two line top marking. No ".455" and no "Smith & Wesson" on the sides of the barrel.
(With serial 718 on mine and 618 on the OPs, I would say theis was standard on these early contract guns.)

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

DO NOT put naval jelly on a gun!!!!

Nice gun you have. It was a Brit contract gun. It was not one of the 44's converted to 455- it was originally built as a 455.
It has not been reblued.

Correct guys- many of the early guns have no side barrel markings.
Many of the 455-2nd models have no caliber markings. Many do. They alternate, marked and unmarked, all the way thru the production, though most later 2nd's are caliber marked.

Thanks for the "Lantern Loop" story- I had never heard that one before.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

So, Lee, do you recommend KY jelly on your gun? What about your rifle?

Back to the thread.... Be careful quoting the 5000 number of Triple locks. Its just a ball park guess. I had 5022 and it was a triple lock, and I owned another, maybe 5019 I forget. The numbers of the production run came from Roy, and he even commented in the past it was just an estimate.

Triple Locks and 2nd Model 455s occupy their own serial sequence, not to be confused with the domestic market numbers.

__________________
Dick Burg

I've used naval jelly on semi-auto barrels to remove the bluing. The main thing when using naval jelly on anything is to wash it off thoroughly with soap and water to neutralize the acid.

In "History of", Roy states that the change from TL to 2nd Model occurs between 5000 and 6000 of the serial number range as the factroy used up the old parts.
In late 1916, another 691 were assembled from leftover parts they discovered, so it is definitely safe to say well over 5000 TL's in 455 were built.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

"I've used naval jelly on semi-auto barrels to remove the bluing."

Oaklands,

Bluing is a form of rust. Naval Jelly removes rust.

To quote our fearful, uh, fearless leader:

"DO NOT put naval jelly on a gun!!!!"

unless you want to remove the bluing.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Yes, I know what bluing is. And if your goal is to remove the bluing, naval jelly will do it. I thought his prohibition against using naval jelly was an unqualified "DON'T DO IT!" and I was wondering why if the goal was to remove some or all the bluing. (I agree that naval jelly is not the remedy for rust on a gun.)

"Yes, I know what bluing is."

I changed my last post to direct my comments to Oaklands, the original poster. He wanted to use Naval Jelly to remove some rust.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Are the S&Ws chambered for .455 Webley or .455 Eley? They are not the same round , as the .455 Eley (aka .455 Colt) has a longer case with a heavier bullet.

They will take either one. Actually they are chambered in .455 Mark I or Mark II.
The Brits had a host of different "Marks" of different bullet weights, shapes and case lengths. They were wise enough to make their military revolvers pretty much "backward compatible" so they could handle just about any of the various types.

__________________
Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I WILL NOT be bluing it, but will be taking it to a gunsmith to see what he can do to help. I want to keep it as original as possible (minus the rust of course).

Springfield is on the barrel, but I don't believe the .455 is there. I am going to try and get a better picture of it on Monday to post. I have to work on a better lighting source to get it to show up good.

Most of us here "have a lot to learn" about photography, so don't worry if your pix aren't perfect. Any picture is better than no picture so keep 'em coming!

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

These Triple Lock .455's definitely saw combat. Elmer Keith mentioned in Sixguns that a Canadian friend told him that he'd shot three Germans with one. They were all DRT. (Dead Right There.)

The range was the distance across a shell crater.

T-Star

Try removing the rust with some gun oil and your fingernail. Gently scrape the rust/crust while saturated with the gun oil. This usually removes any surface accumulation and allows the oil to get to the metal. The marr will always be present but the barrel will not continue to rust. The only way to mask the corrosion or pitting is to refinish the gun and as has all ready been stated you definitely don't want to do that.

Once the surface appears rust free, clean the area with a solvent, like alcohol, to remove the oil, then apply a coat of wax to the area or the whole gun for that matter. Renaissance Wax is my favorite, but there are other brands available. You can buy it online for short money. Make sure that you keep the once rusted area protected as it will always be more prone to rust than the rest of the finish. Then just enjoy this wonderful piece of history. I hope that helps.

__________________
James Redfield
LM #497

+1 on the Renaissance Wax. My favorite.

I just read about using Liquid Wrench to remove rust from a blued surface. Anyone have ideas on this process ?

I am not a photographer for sure. Here is the best shot I could get of the barrel. It is pretty legible. If you download it and blow it up some it shows up even better.

Very nice photo and an great gun. Thanks for starting the thread, there is always something interesting to learn. I am very keen on Victory models but am feeling the urge to move into the large frame earlier guns. I was tempted by a couple in Tucson but managed to resist, my resolve is growing weaker.

__________________
John. SWCA #1586

Would you say your resolve is beginning to dissolve?

Hang around here long enough and it will.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

HSguy. To be honest, this, as mentioned earlier, was a hand me down from my father. He got 3 guns back then for $700. This includes this one, a S&W model 58 .41 magnum and an old S&W clone Spanish 32-20. The 32-20 is in excellent shape and I believe it is from the early 1900's as well. However, I have read it was not the best gun in the world and was not made out of the best materials.

The .41 is in great shape as well. Dad did good.

I agree about learning. This thread has been great. There are some really sharp and friendly people on this forum.

Oaklands-

The top of the barrel looks good, not reblued. Great news!

But my question pertains to whether the Smith & Wesson name is on the left side of the barrel, where it usually is. Caliber was normally marked on the right of the barrel.

Some here say they've seen some examples that don't have that. All that I've seen did have those markings. If they are there, a photo would help. But the top of the barrel definitely looks original, not refinished. The lettering is clean, deep, and sharp.

T-Star

Hi Jack, dissolve is a good term! I have been here a fair amount of time, 2002, but lost a lot of posts on the night of long knives. Forum has cost me a lot of money but more than made up for in advice and friends made.

__________________
John. SWCA #1586

Not that I'm an expert, but that one may be a decent revolver in its own right.

My understanding is that guns made in Spain in that era varied greatly in quality. Some were excellent and some were pretty junky. It just depended on what factory made it.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

I would bet dollars to donuts they are not rosewood, not the right color or grain. They are earlier smooth target grips but these dont always bring that kind of money. They seem to have a different contour on the back bottom edge of the palm swell. At least different than later grips. I have a pair like this and many later pair that are just contoured different, more modern but I dont really know the story behind them. You seem to see these alot on 50-60's vintage N frame guns.They seem to show up alot on modded or rebuilt guns too.