I watched "The Untouchables" this afternoon. Here's a screen shot from the shoot-out scene at the train station. This is where Stone is taking a bead with his S&W 38 Special as he aims at the bad guy who's holding a gun to the Bookkeeper's head. Notice anything wrong?

Patent dates

__________________
Gary Grace
S&WCA #1837

Clarify?

Not sure about the patent dates, but the knob on the end of the ejector rod is missing and those look like target grips to me. Also that front sight is dovetailed into place. Actually thats just the glare making it look like a dovetail cut. My mistake

The frame has the whole "Marcas Registradas, Smith & Wesson, Springfield, MASS" instead of simply "Made in U.S.A." Seems to be missing at least the fourth screw, can't tell about the 5th although it would naturally be absent if the fourth were.

Seems like the front sight should be round type for 1931. That looks like a 10-5 to me.

This is what jumped out at me.

Yeah, the four-line Marcas Registradas address indicates [pst WWII production, as does the knobless extractor rod, and ramped front site blade.

Aside from a few historical gun inaccuracies that movie did pretty well in keeping with history. But the train station scene when he's holding a browning hi-power to his head? Who had an HP in america before WWII? And I don't even think it would've been made if I'm following the timeline of prohibition right. That scene should've taken place around 1934-35 at the latest, the high power didn't start production until 1935. But showing one of the gangsters carrying a 1903/1908 colt was pretty awesome I thought.

In the same vein -


The Guns of Indiana Jones






The guns Indiana Jones uses in the course of the film series vary from film to film, and in the case of Raiders, sometimes scene to scene, but every pistol Indiana Jones uses is indicative of the post-World War I era. All of his sidearms are early-1900s military designs and although there are a few choice moments in Raiders of the Lost Ark where he uses a semi-automatic, Indiana Jones is most often identified with the revolver.

The use of the revolver hearkens back to the Western heroes and their Colt peacemakers, a genre that helped inspire the Indiana Jones series. Until World War II, revolvers were the mainstay sidearm in most military units throughout the world and remained the sidearms of choice for police forces throughout the world well into the 1980s.

Smith and Wesson became famous for making revolvers in the 1800s, and the "hand ejector" may be considered the first "modern" style revolver. They were popular with the military in the late 1800s, early 1900s, because they could be quickly emptied and reloaded.



RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK
There were two primary revolvers used in Raiders of the Lost Ark. One was a Smith & Wesson 1917, chambered for .45 ACP from Stembridge rentals in Hollywood. The second was a Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector Model 2 (HE2) from Bapty & Co. in London. It is widely accepted that the Bapty was used in all the revolver shooting scenes.

Both guns had their barrels cut down to four inches. A distinguishing feature in recognizing one of these type guns is the slim profile checkered grips. A variant in the two Raiders hand ejectors was the S&W gold medallions inlaid in the grips. The .455 had them and the .45 ACP did not. This can most likely be attributed to an oversight in production.

Both of these pistols were sold at separate auctions a few years ago and are now in private hands, with both owners kind enough to provide details on these now-historically important revolvers.

The Smith and Wesson Hand Ejector 2nd Model “Bapty”
The “Bapty” was a Hand Ejector 2nd Model with lanyard ring and a 4-inch barrel with a “Baughman-style” front ramp sight and worn blued finish. The revolver is also clearly in the .455 Eley caliber as because exposed brass cannot be seen at the back of the revolver's cylinder during the film.

Thanks to careful research by “Indy45,” who will be quoted in the following descriptions, much is now known about the "Bapty," including even the smallest details.

The barrel on the “Bapty” is likely a later barrel added to the gun as there were no HE2s made with 4-inch barrels.



“A S&W 1917 muzzle wall thickness measures about .090, while the movie gun looks like .060-.070. I was able to verify on Smith-WessonForum.com that the later S&W 1950 Army and Model 22 (through 1966) had thinner walls, so Bapty cutting and installing a later barrel would explain the difference.”

When the gun was photographed after auction, it was learned that the pistol was indeed a British contract revolver.

Through photographic analysis, it was learned that the "Bapty" is one of the English WWI contract guns in the s/n range 5001 to 74755 and re-blued “to cover the barrel work.” The gun used .455 blanks, available since the 1930's.

The front sight, custom made from steel stock, measures 9mm (.355 inches) high, 6mm (.236 inches) wide and 2.8 cm (1.10 inches) long. The blade ramp is about .162 inches high, .086 inches wide and .537 inches long, with serrations on it's angled surface. The sight base top is .724 inches long before it slopes off to the barrel.

“The overall finish is worn with rust specs with "dings", or dents, on either side of the barrel near the frame, probably from placing the barrel in a vise, and at the flare where the cylinder pin hits the frame when closing the cylinder.”

Also of note is a crossed flag British proof on the frame left side at the barrel centerline and on the right side of the frame, the S&W "Trade Mark" circular logo. Patent text on the top side of the barrel is partially covered by the front sight. The barrel left side printing says "SMITH & WESSON .455."

“All numbers on steel match the S/N 39871 except the cylinder, which means the cylinder was probably replaced long ago by Bapty. The grips are well worn checkered walnut with the gold (brass) S&W indented logo. Unknown if the right grip has the S/N penciled on the underside.”

When sold at auction, the Bapty Raiders revolver was officially deactivated to be sold in compliance with current British laws. The ejector was removed and the cylinder counter-bored so a cartridge block could be welded in place. The ejector no longer functions and likely a barrel block was installed “as there looks to be a drilled and filled hole on the underside of the very front of the barrel.”

The Smith and Wesson 1917 “Stembridge”
Yes, there are two different revolvers in Raiders of the Lost Ark. The previously mentioned “Bapty” fired the blanks. The other, most notably seen when Indiana Jones cavalierly tosses it into his suitcase in his home, is a non-shooting revolver that the production team rented from Stembridge Gun Rentals of Glendale, CA. The “Stembridge” was also used in the beginning of the movie during the Chachapoyan temple scene in Peru, filmed in Hawaii, when Indiana Jones relinquishes his gun to Belloq. This revolver is noteworthy for it's reattached barrel sight and a corner missing from the left grip bottom front, exposing part of the butt frame.



Thanks to meticulous research by Lee Keppler, Indy45 and others, the history of the “Stembridge” is well documented. Keppler was able to rent the Raiders “Stembridge” in 1985, long before it was sold at public auction in 2007. He took detailed photos of it at the time, and the new owner was kind enough to provide additional photos and information after the sale.

The “Stembridge” is a Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector 2nd Model with a blued finish, lanyard ring and a 4-inch barrel with a trimmed and re-soldered front blade sight. The first half-inch of the barrel had the bluing stripped to bare metal to permit the soldering, and was not re-blued, resulting in the visible silver band on the barrel tip. The barrel was a 1917 5.5-inch cut to 4 inches during the time he had it on loan.

The “Stembridge” is a Commercial Model, as evidenced by the small circle S&W "Trade Mark" logo on the left side of the frame under the cylinder release and was chambered for .45 ACP. The grips were checkered walnut with no medallions and rounded at the top. Although the grips sometimes appear black on film, the grips were actually very dark brown as they were “well oiled.” Incidentally, the ejector rod locking lug was actually missing on the “Stembridge.”

The serial number was 172449. The barrel's left side states "S.&W. D.A.45." The barrel's right side states "SMITH & WESSON." The top of the barrel has two lines of fine print, but since the barrel was cut and the front blade re-attached, the remaining visible lettering is "WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A. DEC. 17 1901 FEB 6 1906 SEP.14 1909".

The Smith & Wesson 1917 has an interesting history. S&W designed their big N Frame revolver in .44 caliber in 1908. The British Government placed a large order for about 75,000 chambered in .455 Mk II (Webley) in 1914. One of these, a Hand Ejector Model 2, turned out to be the “Bapty” shooter. At the start of World War I, Colt could not produce sufficient numbers of their 1911 .45 ACP automatic to meet U.S. Government requirements, so the U.S. asked S&W to supply large frame revolvers in .45 ACP. Since .45 ACP is rimless, the revolver's chambers were designed with an inner lip so that the cartridge would rest or "headspace" at the proper depth. But once fired, the brass was difficult to extract, as the hand-ejector had nothing to grab. S&W is credited with designing a half-moon clip that in effect provided a 'rim' for the cartridges and made loading and unloading easier.

The U.S. Government contracted with S&W for the .45 ACP U.S. Service Model of 1917, with production totaling about 163,000. The 1917s have 5.5-inch barrels, and nearly all are blued finish, although some World War II armory re-furbishes have a parkerized finish. About 25,000 1917s were also produced for the Brazilian Government in 1938. S&W continued production of the 1917 in a U.S. Commercial version after February 1, 1919 until 1946. The “Stembridge” was one of the Commercial 1917s, rare in terms of production numbers, with only about 20,000 made.

The above was copied from: http://www.indygear.com/igguns.html
which has numerous stills of the two S&Ws' from the movie.

*************************************************************************************

Also when most gun people are asked about what kind of semi-auto Jones used in the Ravenswood saloon shootout and aboard the tramp steamer most would unhesitatingly say, "A Colt 1911." Wrong, in fact he used a a Hi-Power. Why? Because 9mm blanks are much more reliable than .45ACP blanks and thus require less movie re-shoots in case of a FTF or FTE. My photo taken off the "tube."



Clearly a Hi-Power with a "Commander" hammer.

Hoppe's no.10

Boy, talk about going off topic and hijacking a thread.

That isn't a Hi-Power. It's a Star 1911 clone:

all I could clearly ID was the external extractor. So in my mind it must've been a Hi-Power lol. I could've sworn there was one scenen in the movie when one of the bad guys has a HP on him. But it's been a pretty good while since I've seen that movie end to end.

How do you get those movie stills to post?

GF

I sure do. Forget about the gun that didn't exist yet. He is neither "taking a bead" nor aiming. He is simply NOT looking at the sights.

Guys, seriously, with Hollyweird being what it is, I think the firearms prop guys for The Untouchables deserve a lot of credit that they didn't give Stone a freqin' Mod. 686... At least it's a fixed-sight, K-frame, blued, 38, with a tapered barrel. Obviously not correct vintage, but it's a very close attempt for Hollywood!

Very true. It could always be worse lol.

I think someone should have been carrying a Heavy Duty: Sean Connery's character (Malone) for example.

I know this is the S&W forums, but a classic police revolver of that vintage which was giving S&W a run for their money (may have even been ahead of S&W at that time) was the Colt Police Positive. That would have been an appropriate equipment for someone, too.

+1...given what Hollywood has done in so many other films the props guys in this one did a good job.

Don

__________________
Laus Deo! <><

during the recruitment phase of the movie, Andy garcia was shooting a colt police positive revolver; a nice touch there... but his shooting style was very very advance for the era=)

The scene at the end of the movie where Frank Nitti is trying to escape down a rope and Ness decides not to shoot him he is holding a Colt Police positive (or so it appears).

It was. Ness got it from the police officer who dropped it when Nitti shot him in the courthouse.

Agreed on giving the armorors some credit.

__________________
Stu

I just don't understand the use of Star 1911 clones. I mean it's not like correct (real) Colt 1911s weren't available when that movie was made.

I agree too about giving some credit to the Prop Man. The only movie I can remember seeing this done was Thief by Michael Mann, who must have been gun-savvy since he armed Crockett with a Bren Ten in the tv series Miami Vice.

As for using 1911 clones:
Who knows? Maybe the studio was offered a great deal by a big importer who bought in quantity.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

Mann sent James Caan to Gunsite; which is why he looks like he knows what he's doing with the 1911.

__________________
Stu

[QUOTE=Gary7;135566914]That isn't a Hi-Power. It's a Star 1911 clone:

Yes indeed. A Star model B. The actor that plays Frank Nitti also carries one in the move in the courtroom/rooftop scenes.
"I gotta perMIT for that..."

Prop men and armorers usually know their stuff but they also have a responsibility to the producers regarding cost and knowing from the script really how very centrally important it is to have the absolute most correct firearm. As for the Star 1911, most of which are in 9 mm, they are used
in many films because of their reliability and also because they can be rented cheaply.

Michael Mann, for instance, is a gun savvy director/producer and he did his best to get things as right as he could for "Public Enemies," "Collateral" and "Thief" as well as "Last of the Mohicans."

Really, from start to finish "The Untouchables" is pure fiction with only a few, very few, facts/truths portrayed. The writer, Chicago playwright David Mamet, had a ball.

Now, regarding the beginning of this thread with Andy Garcia and the
"modern" Model 10--yet the prop men did see to it that in the scene with
Sean Connery supposedly shooting a bootlegger through the mouth, he had a pre-war M&P with the telltale long hammer. How about praising that.

And did you really care that when Costner visited Connery at his house that Connery's collar was sometimes open and sometimes buttoned within moments of the back and forth dialog?

Since Nitti was portrayed as just a hit man thrown off the Cultural Center roof in Chicago, did you really care that he also took over the Outfit in the
1930s after Capone went to prison for tax evasion?

Hey, it's entertainment!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Star automatics are often used as stand-ins for Colt 1911's because they can be made to function with blank ammunition quite easily compared to the Colts. The difference is in the extractor.

Star may be as period correct as a Colt for the time frame. I think they started producing a Colt similar gun in 1920.

Great information! Makes sense that he is armed with a tricked out 1911.

I thought that it looked like Caan must have had some training for the movie. Little things like how he never crosses his feet when he is searching, gun drawn, through the gangster's house.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

"How do you get those movie stills to post?

GF "

This site has lots of photos, some good info, and plenty of errors, too.



Untouchables, The (1987) - imfdb :. guns in movies :. movie guns :. the internet movie firearms database

__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

That's where I lifted the screen caps from. And I agree, there is A LOT of erroneous info on that site.

I was going to do the screen caps myself but I realized my copy of The Untouchables is Blu-Ray and the drive on my computer is DVD only.

There are a couple of Star semiauto models that were around at that time that would fit in.

The Star M1920 is easily distinguished from a Colt because of it's slide mounted safety on the left side. Low production, not many around.

The Models 1921 and 1922 could easily pass for a 1911Colt in a movie shot, the larger rear sight and it's slide cut mounting being the easiest giveaway.
Most all the Model 20,21,22 production was for the military there but a few commercial models were made.

M1921 had a grip safety, removed from the M1922.

The common Model A has been around since 1922, it was a commercial version of the M1922.
The first Model A pistols had a large tangent type adjustable rear site.

The Colt style grip strap and a small rear site were added to the Model A in the early 30's and though a few more small changes were made, it's escentially the same pistol the Spanish Govt adopted in 1940. The commonly seen Star Model A (9mmLargo) and a bit later the same gun in 9mmLuger, Model B.

There's also a lot of argumentative people on there when you challenge what they post!

I think the Hi-Power back on Page 1 with the "Commander style bobbed hammer" may actually be an Inglis...

Could be. But given that the character of Indiana Jones traveled all over the world, it's not improbable that he picked up a FN Hi-Power somewhere along the way.

I'm impressed that he's taking aim in DA rather than with an SA hold...

I have not read the entire thread yet, but my guess is that you are referring to the fact that the Model 10 in question had not yet been built at the time of the events portrayed. The Model 10 looks like a much newer version than would have been available in the 1920s or 1930s.

The 9mm worked with blanks, and Stars were available in 9mm and they looked enought like 1911s that they could be passed off as such on the screen.

Well at least they got the bullets right in Stones gun lead round nose

Pete

Just out of curiosity, I ran the movie and did stops of Andy Garcia taking aim at the bad guy holding the accountant hostage on the Union Station steps.

So FYI model520fan and kwbikr, the still photo provided in this thread was after Garcia took his shot. A few frames before it was clear Garcia had the S&W in single action and just before firing he seemed to squint a bit down the sights.

Good grief, the trivia contest sure is fun.

I hadn't noticed that since I pulled this screen shot from imfdb. I thought I remembered him taking aim, however.

Here's a fifth "Untouchable" and he's carrying a Smith 5903!

The Bridge scenes were filmed 5 miles from my home. As the resident Trooper for the area I was assigned to assist any way I could with the road closures, traffic control, etc.

I ended up having a VERY memorable Four weeks with the cast and crew.

FN in MT

That is very, very cool.

Frank that had to be one of the best moments in your career.

As to the Star 9mm they were used in many movies as stand in's for 1911's. Wild Bunch and Sand Pebbles for the ones that come to mind.

If any of you own a Star Model B they throw the 9mm cases most often directly on top of your head when firing. I love them and have owned many. Throw something else out. DO NOT shoot +P or any heavy NATO 9mm ball out of a Star. It will jack them up badly. Any 1911 Star clone will break all kinds of parts with this round. Won't blow up but I spent a lot of time at the old Interarms in Alexandria getting mine fixed. They are fun guns with standard 9mm ball.

Great post. Also check out the Bergman Chisum. It's a P38!!

And to give a plug for the NRA museum many of these guns are on display at the Hollywood expo.

love "The Untouchables" dam good movie

Frank,

That had to be a blast to meet those guys from the movie. I have been involved in a few movies myself and for the most part always had a good time with cast and crew.

I thought that country looked like MT. I live near Columbia Falls.

John

The silver steel bridge in the movie, between the US and Canada...was the Hardy Creek bridge on Old US 91 Hwy along the MO River.

It WAS a good time. Connery was a real Gentleman. Always took time to have a picture taken, sign an autograph, etc. A TOTAL Class act. We chatted several times about ; Montana, fly fishing, Scotland, his 007 days, guns, even a little bit about women! ME talking girls with 007!!

Andy Garcia and Charley Martin Smith were FAR more approachable and even seemed as thought they WANTED to have someone spend some time and talk with them. We had some great conversations.

Costner was alway respectful but was not very friendly. Don't mean that as a slight...he was simply all business. But at the end of the shoot he was a lot friendlier.

My favorite story... Connery was walking back to his trailer at the end of the day. As we walked on the bridge over the River I noticed several large rainbows feeding on hoppers along the shoreline. I pointed them out...as we had previously talked about fishing. We spent about an hour simply leaning on the bridge rail, watching those fish feeding.
We got talking about his early James Bond movies and he mentioned how "Silly" the current movies had become, all the silly gadgets, Jaws, etc.
I mentioned how much I enjoyed his traditional introduction at the start of the Bond films, how it was such a well known line.

He looks at me and in a very serious, though nonchalant manner and says ; "Bond...James Bond". It was AMAZING...even dressed in his Malone outfit, standing on the Hardy Bridge in MT....we were instantly sitting at a baccarat table in Monte Carlo...and he was in a Tux.

I smiled, he laughed and we walked back to the trailer. THAT was a hell of a moment.

FN in MT