In the SCS&W, Supica describes two types of service sights for the Model of 1917. One is the "notch cut in the top strap for a rear sight" and the later one he describes as "a square notch rear sight cut into the top strap".

Does anyone have an approximate year that S&W went from the earlier rear sight to the later one? I ask because I have a Model of 1917 Commercial which letters to August 1928 that has the early sight. I note that Supica mentions the .38/44 HD (introduced in '30) has the square notch rear sight.

So I'm wondering if anyone can shed some light on when the change occurred. And I do understand that changes often were gradually implemented... (We will not say "haphazardly" )

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You're shy a few manners.

I have a 3rd model .44, # 28363, that shipped in January 1927, and it has the U notch.

I also have a 3rd model .44, # 37585, that shipped in October 1931, and it has a square notch.

My commercial 1917 shipped in the mid '30s and it has the U notch.

I believe, and this is just my gut feeling, the commercial 1917s, made before the Brazilian 1937 models, were all built on WW I frames.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

That was my feeling too.

Roy Jinks says in the History of Smith & Wesson that S&W depleted its supply of war-time products and began producing the commercial variation identical to the war-time gun except for the stocks. This is what made me think you would see square notches on commercial M1917s at or about the time they appeared on any other N-Frame.

I suppose it's all in what Mr. Jinks meant when he said "war-time products" -- by this did he mean "completed revolvers" or "all war-time components", including frames. Since they were still locating WWI frames in 1946, I have to guess he meant completed revolvers.

Thanks for the valuable information about your mid '30s M1917. That certainly shows they were being shipped with the U notch at least up to that point.

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You're shy a few manners.

The order to square the top strap of the 44 HE was issued in Oct, 27.
The I frames and K frames had been done in 23.

I have a 1917 Comm shipped in 1930 with a flat top (square) frame, but it was a special order for a P.D.
I have seen other 1917 Comm's with a flat top from the early 30's.
I still would not be surprised to see round top comm's shipped in the early 30's.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I have a 2nd. Model .44-40 that shipped May 1929 with the square notch.

FRANK S. SWCA 2052.

Thanks to all the gentlemen who were so kind to share their knowledge and experience. This has been very educational.

I added Muley Gil's Mid '30s M1917 to my '28 Commercial and '46 Brazilian and got this chronology:





I know one should not draw conclusions from such a small sample. But it is odd how the serial numbers decrease as the years increase!

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You're shy a few manners.

You're lumping apples and oranges.

You have to think of the 1946 Brazilians as a distinct anomaly that does NOT reflect anything about all the other 1917's- INCLUDING the Brazilians of the original 37 contract.
I have given my opinion of what happened on that deal several times:
WW II was over.
For most of 6 yrs, the factory had worked at a feverish pace, initially to get out from under a MILLION dollar debt to Britain, not to mention a large chunk of the British army almost having to swim the channel assuming the Germans would be pursuing with harpoons.....
Then, the US forces wanted every Victory model taht could be assembled, as FAST as it could be assembled, yesterday. The factory well remembered that the Gov't had SEIZED the factory just a short 22-23 years before, and they did NOT want that to occur again. Not to mention incentives like the Japanese occupying Alaskan islands and ships burning in sight of eastern ports....
When you entered the gate during the war, I suspect you needed to be ready to work.

OK, the war's over.
Time for a break, right?
Not hardly.
The Swede is still in charge.
He wants the new Masterpiece guns in production- a totally new line in 3 calibers. The nation is also clamoring for all the old guns- M&P's and N frames.
Another minor detail- S&W is building a new factory. They are acting as their own general contractor, and building it OUT-of-POCKET, with NO financing.
Busy days.
I imagine that Hellstrom ordered that EVERY bin, every box, every shelf be examined, and/or cleaned out, and/or emptied in prep for the move. After all, EVERYTHING in the plant had to be moved, scrapped, or left.
THIS is, in my opinion, how the 1946 Brazilians came about. They found old frames, probably gathering dust in some dark corner since the late 20's when the order for all guns to have a flat-top frame had been issued. They were obsolete- useless scrap iron.
I think it occured to Hellstrom, or some other sharp person, that they could assemble those 12,000 WW I type 1917's, and cut Brazil a heck of a deal. Win/Win for all concerned- the Brazilians get 12,000 guns at a deal, and the factory makes a 12,000 gun deal out of SCRAP that they don't have to dump.
Beautiful capitalism at its finest.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Yes, I've read your previous posts ( with great interest I might add! ) on this subject and thought I understood...

Just to be clear, are you saying that my '28 (and MG's mid '30s) M1917 were NOT made on leftover frames from WWI? Otherwise, how are they different from the '46 Brazilians except that they got "found" sooner?

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You're shy a few manners.

I THINK what Lee is saying is that the commercial 1917s, like mine, had already been built and stuck in the safe. That's why mine, with a lower serial number, was one of the last to get shipped.

The Brazilians of 1937 were new made on the then current flat topped frames and were the equal of any other S&W made then.

The '46 Brazilians were a "parts clean-up" deal.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Ok, MG, if that's it I see how someone might draw a distinction between the two.

I did not think S&W was still selling M1917s "out of the safe" well into the 1930s. I was hanging my hat on something Roy Jinks said to the effect that all the war-time production guns had been sold by 1921.

Maybe I'm being really dense here. I do appreciate all the effort at explaining this fascinating subject.

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You're shy a few manners.

To clarify-
The order for square sights was issued in late 27.
We all know they keep building guns and frames in progress when a change occurs. It gets PHASED in.
The Mod 1926 comes out in 26. Round top. We see them shipped into 28, maybe 29 with round tops, but flat tops far outnumber them.

Same with 1917's. I think Gil should check his letter just to be sure. I think that by the early 30's, they were building 1917's with flat tops. Maybe they still built some round tops, and shipped them to "hardware store" generic orders, and sent flat tops to cop orders. I dunno- pure wild *** guessing....

You have to read that statement in Roy's book closely.
He says they sold commercially some GUNS built during wartime production, and they were gone by 21. He does NOT say they had used up all parts by 21. We KNOW they had not- we have seen 44-2nd models shipped in the MID 20's whose frames have eagle heads and swivel holes.
If you examine enough of the flat top 1937-38 Brazilians, you will get quite used to seeing S's or eagle heads(Gov't inspector marks) on barrels and cyl's, because they are LEFTOVER WW I parts. Not always, but often.
On the 1946 Brazilians, you will often see Gov't inspector marks on barrels, frames, and cyl's. Again, not always, but often, in every combo possible- the marks might be on one part, two parts, or all three.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee,

I don't have a letter on this one. Mr Jinks provided a shipping date on the SWCA side.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

What date did he say?
have you seen it lately- as in are you sure it is a round top?

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee,

PM sent.

Yup, it is a round top.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Sir, I did read it closely. Please see my comments / questions in my second post of this thread. I've tried to be careful to differentiate between guns and frames throughout this thread. When I say "gun" I mean complete, functional, ready-to-sell finished product. I believe that's what MG meant, a completed 1918 - 1919 production revolver ("WWI leftover"), when he said his came out of "the safe".

I will examine my '46 Brazilian U-Notch to see if I can find any inspector's marks on the barrel or cylinder. That should be fun!

When I typed up my little "chronology" I was mainly having fun. I did not want to act like I had made some earth-shaking discovery or anything. I just thought it was really odd that at least these three frames got used newest to oldest.

As far as guessing goes, I doubt all the leftover WWI frames were kept in one big box at the factory, or for that matter, even all in one area. There were probably some here, and some there that kept turning up over the years. Finally someone came along and made a clean sweep in '46. But who knows, maybe there is an old crate back in some distant corner, just waiting to be opened...

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You're shy a few manners.