Oops, sorry Otyeboteb, you had answered my question about the famed "artillery model" in an earlier post. I see barrels on Numrich for pretty reasonable prices...you thinking about rebarreling the bulger with issue length or another artillery length?

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For the veteran 1917 owners, I have an ammuntion question. My M1917 seems to be shooting quite well; at ten meters with no rest other than a good two hand grip, I am getting 2" or so groups which I think to be pretty decent. There is an occasion wild flier, which I am not sure if "operator" induced or something else, but it actually seems to shoot tighter as it warms up, much like a good old M-1 Garand. However, it shoots high, a good 6" or so at ten meters. I am using 230 gr. FMJ Magtech ammuniton as it was all I had available to me at the time. I am thinking about trying to get some Federal 230 gr. "Personal Defesne" JHP (C45D) as it is really suited to a revolver (it's really a semi jacketed HP and Federal even recommends it for revolvers in .45 ACP). They also make this in 185 gr. I don't really intend on using this as "defensive" ammunition, but actually for finishing shots on game (I live in Germany, this is what "defense" ammunition is used for). My guess is that I should stick with the 230 gr. as I would assume the 185 gr. would shoot even higher. Anyone have experience with the ammunition or shooting high problem? I don't want to do any filing of rear sight on this revolver, and sending to S&W is out of the question since I am in Germany.

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Something that you might want to try is commercially loaded or reloaded ammunition with 200 grain lead semi-wadcutter bullets. It will probably shoot a little lower since the lighter bullet will be in the recoiling barrel a little less, and the lead will be easier on the bore. As an added benefit, it cuts a nice clean hole in a paper target. It sounds like it would be a good all around bullet for all of your needs.

An aside concerning the great orators like Churchill. I went to my Eagle Scout recognition dinner in the late sixties. I sat about three chairs away from H. Roe Bartle. The greatest orator I have seen and heard personally. They turned off the PA as it was unneccesary. He could be heard at the back of the great meeting hall in the Moila Shriner's Temple in St. Joseph Missouri. I didn't realize the value of it at the time but was amazed at the booming voice of the big man. He could arguably be the equal of Churchill in my mind. I certainly now wish to have recorded that speach. His history is entwined in that of Kansas City and the Boy Scouts in this part of the country. I hope I'm not too far off subject here. If so please correct me, I can start another thread. I placed this here as it was brought to mind by post #26. Packy

Thanks Pete, sadly, reloading isn't an option for me, but will be in the future (hopefully). For the same reasons (I live in Germany; reloading requires a license, etc.), finding LRN or LSWC is difficult at best; the Germans like FMJs or SJSP, and sometimes HPs, but rarely full lead bullets. One of the other problems with reloading is that it is so expensive here, it ends up not being cost effective, so if you reload, it's because you want to, not because you want to and you save money. Factory ammuntion is pretty expensive too. I think I will be comfortable with adjusting my sight picture for point of aim, it's just takes some mental recalibration as my other handguns are dead on. Maybe the M1917 was calibrated for longer ranges (25 yards)?

M2,

Very nice that you've managed to get set up in Germany.

If you do find yourself wanting to load/cast your own, you might want to know that casting technology has been advanced tremendously in the last five or so years. The internet has proven invaluble in this.

As an example for you, my last season of shooting leveraction silhouette I shot my Winchester 94 in .38-55 exclusivley, putting better than 500 rounds through it. These are a powerful load, a 285 grain bullet at over 1750 fps. I didn't clean the weapon at all the whole year as it changes the point of impact a lot when I do.

So at the end of the year I set the rifle up in the vise to clean it. I pushed a cloth patch through, reversed it and did it again. Then once more, and the last side of the patch came out perfectly clean. Total of two patches used.

The patches were dry, by the way.

This level of cleaning effort is typical with all my firearms that I shoot my own cast in. Now that the causes of leading are known and thus preventable cleaning/shooting is so much more enjoyable. Cheaper too!


Cat

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Think for yourself.

Cat,

Great information about casting information in regards to lead bullets. I have all intentions of going back to re-loading some day. I think that my concern was driven by an hours worth of work on the throat of my barrel, but who knows, that could have been decades worth of buildup. It was hard to detect until I put LED lighting on it, then it showed up clearly, otherwise, I might have not noticed for some time. However, lead nosed bullets are difficult to find here, and you cannot legally shoot someone else's handloads in your firearm (!). The good news is that I may return to the states soon, and even if I don't will try to get the license for handloading. In the meantime, it's FMJ or SJHPs. I think I'm am going to try some 185 gr. loads just for for comparison, but I've always been a fan of the 230 gr. After all, the 1917s were produced with the idea of 230 gr. FMJ being used, so it can't be all that bad!

I would like to re-Barrel it to be a 'Snubby'.

Was hoping to find an old already cut down Barrel, or, a Barrel with a bulge farther out, to cut down, so as not to waste a Good Barrel.

I will look in to the Numrich parts though, thanks for mentioning that!


Edit - read further...more to say now...

Re-Loading wise, .45 ACP is a joy, and of course you can explore a wide variety of Bullet types and power levels.

Unless needing huge amounts of Ammunition, a press, such as the old Lyman 'Tru-Line Jr' will work well, is easy and fun to use, and, would not usually cost much to obtain one.

There were Molds for making many kinds of .45 ACP Bullets, and, of course Lead is usually easy enough to find...or even to re-claim by gathering spent Jacketed Bullets at one's local Shooting Range.

Molds and Presses of all vintages are readily available on e-bay.


How curious that a License is required in Germany to do one's own re-Loading!


Are Powder and Primers especially expensive there?

Everything here requires a license (and expense) regarding firearms and "explosives". Reloading is in the "explosives" category, and since it's firearms related, gets some double regulation. Also, everything, and I mean everything, is expensive here now. Wasn't always that way, sadly. I really would like to get back into reloading. However, I'll live back in the US eventually, so I'll just have to be patient for now.

By the way, I ordered some half moons, full moons and some standard issue grips from Numrich the other day, it all got here pretty fast. I don't want to wear those "original" (well, that's what was on it when I bought it!) gold medallions out since everyone says they're collectors stuff all on their own. Numrich also has frame parts, pins, screws, .455 cylinders and also barrels, so you may think about ordering one or two barrels; one to cut and one to keep. They are a bit expensive, though ($128) I would order a barrel, but you can't do that in Germany (!). The Germans consider barrels a firearm as much as a frame, crazy as it sounds.

I'm liking those period grips, and they are a bit thicker than my old gold medallions that came with my 1917; it now fits a bit better in my hand, and I don't have to feel like I'm wearing out those beautiful old civilian grips. Since they are really like what should be on it anyway, pretty happy about it and they were dirt cheap...about $40, but pretty good quality.

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Nice looking grips you made, good job.

I think those medallion grips would come back with me to the states, were I you.


Cat

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Think for yourself.

In these times of uncertainty, you could bank that happening and feel your money was well invested!

M2MG: If your new grips let you have a better grip on the pistol, that may lower the point of impact. A pistol in the hand is a delicately balanced mechanism as far as point of impact is concerned. I once had a Model 36 on whih I put a set of Herrett grips that were almost as big as the pistol; it looked like a steel pistol growing out of a stump. The POI was lowered about 8 inches at 25 yds.

Thanks Cyrano, what you said makes sense, can't wait to get it back to the range now. The newer grips give a much better hold and you may well be right. Some day I'll retire the old girl with the vintage grips on it, but will use these for shooters.

Show off!!!! : P
Nice herd!!!

Shipped in February 1918...

Well this old 1917 has been parked and the grips refinished, but it is fun as heck to shoot, and I will never sell it!

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I'm italian and I know very well european limits for gun possession. Here we can have three "common" (that means killing tool) guns plus seven hunting gun and no limit target guns. At first sight I'd say someone inverted grips. As told first batch of brazilians shipped in 1938 shows checkered medallion grips while second batch shipped in 1946 has smooth 1917 style grips. If you can examine serial number you can have a lot of infos about. IMHO for european standards price is very good for a 1917 but too much for a brazilian. If the 1917 has no alien markings, chances are strong that it would be a WWII left back as mine.

I've already posted this stuff elsewhere in the forum but just for the sake of this nice thread I'll post some pic again. I like a lot to accessorize military guns with period gears. You cab see WWI and WWII 1917 rigs plus brazilian web gears.

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	RIG1.jpg (91.8 KB, 149 views)

Here's a couple of pics to add to this thread..

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

She's not much, but she's mine:

Picked this up from a friends uncle that wanted it to go to a good home. Sold it to me very reasonably. I had to straighten the ejector rod and clean the 40 years of gunk out of her, but it's a straight shooter. Looking for a lanyard ring. It's a 1937 Brazilian, should it have smooth grips?

"should it have smooth grips?"

It depends. The Brazilians from the 1937 contract had service grips with large silver medalions. The Brazilians from the later 1940s shipment could have those or smooth service grips, like the WW I 1917s.

Does your Brazilian have the flat top frame and a square rear sight notch? If so, it is from the earlier shipment.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

1937 Brazilian

Here's a pic

So I pulled the side plate off tonight.

A little brake cleaner.

Applied some RemOil to all parts and put the grips back on. Made QUITE a discovery. The DA will also shoot single action. It was so gummed up before it would only fire double action. I thought it was odd that they would make a revolver of this size DAO.
I think she's much happier in her new home. Cleaning up quite nice. I have moon clips on the way.

It's going to live in the bedroom.

Your Brazilian was built for the 1937 contract.

The later 1940s Brazilians were assembled using WW I frames.

Congrats.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Thanks, Muley
So what does that mean? I slightly better built S&W? I would be happy with either.

I picked up this 1917, converted to target model, for a steal on GunBroker. The gun interested me, but mainly I bought it for the Pre-War Magna's which it was wearing. I forget what I paid for the gun, but it was less than the wood is worth.







Bill

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US Marine, 16 years+

Well, the frame is 20 years newer than the WW I built 1917s and if there were any improvements, your revolver has them. You definitely have a better sight picture with the square rear sight notch.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Purchased in the late 80's via Shotgun News for $150, SN 184xxx. Aside from showing a lot of "history", this gun still shoots great and is the only gun my wife will shoot.

This model of 1917 was recently a gift to me from a very dear friend. I have a thread here in this sub-forum with the story if anyone cares to read it.

A model of 1917 and a great friend.( Pics Posted)

It belonged to my friend, and I have shot it several times in the past. I plan on continuing to shoot it, as that is what it was meant to do!

This gun is lettered as having been shipped in 1918. It is very close to 96%.







Needless to say, I will be keeping this for a very long time.

PS; Ignore the bad photobucket editing mistake I made on the front site on the top picture. It looks the same as the other side in the lower picture!


WG840

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Freedom above all else.

I just swapped for one, on it's way in from Alabama! Hurry up Fedex!

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Always bet on stupidity.

Very nice,,

Courious??

Are these home=made snap-caps??

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Thank you.

Yes , those are dummy rounds that can be used for dry firing, and or for reloading practice. Most of the cases have holes drilled into them, and all have spent primers.


WG840

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Freedom above all else.

The first handgun I ever owned was a 1917 of the Colt persuasion. I gave $25 for it in 1967. Great old gun which I, dummy that I was, traded off for something or other. I've kicked myself ever since!

An easy and cheap way to make dummy rounds is to use the small erasers you get at an office supply for mechanical pencil refills. Just glue them into the primer pocket and sand flat to depth.

The finish s rough but will clean up, excellent rifling, SN 633xx

Ive been away for a while lurking over in the Colt web sight. Here's picture of my very early SN 8398 1917.

Got the old beastie cleaned up,

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Always bet on stupidity.

This is an incredible thread; I just finished going through all 20 pages of history! It's been very educational as well; I've gotten some ideas for my civ 1917.
Looking at the shortened guns, I can see where they would be ideal for naval aircrews in WWII; if they went into the drink, they would have .45 performance in a compact, rust-resistant package (I've read where naval aircrew preferred revolvers, since autos, in their opinion rusted to uselessness much faster than a revolver).

SN 421xx, I am applying for a S&W factory letter on this one.

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Here are before and after pics of my 1917. It had a wasp nest in one cylinder! Found internals, which were missing, and had it reblued. It is tight and is a great shooter!

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	1917 before Left.jpg (71.5 KB, 129 views)
	1917 After Left.jpg (50.3 KB, 145 views)

Here is my Brazilian 1917/37. It has a beautiful grey park finish and is the early style frame. Like new.

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	Brazilian 002.jpg (87.4 KB, 84 views)

Melsurp,

Nice recovery of that old wasp nest. The hammer you used is a scarce one that only appeared before early 1918. You were lucky to find it.

Bob

Yep, that is a really nice save!

Where can I find a listing of serial numbers/US Army numbers on model 1917's? Thank you; jpcleveland

Since military regulations required that the 1911 autos be carried with a loaded magazine and an empty chamber, those guns generally required two hands to get into action. This was not true of the revolvers. One hand could be used to work the aircraft's mechanisms, and the other hand could have an instantly-ready handgun in it.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Good point.
I once read an account of a crew that had to ditch; it was stated that .45s rusted to uselessness much more quickly than revolvers. Not stated was if the respective guns had been properly maintained. To most aircrew, their pistols was just a metal lump to be hauled around--until they needed it...