? about a wolf & klar 44

lowhog · #1 09-25-2010, 10:19 AM

I found this pre war wolf & klar with a 6.5 inch barrel thats for sale.It has a lanyard ring hole through the serial number on the butt,and the serial number is stamped on the frame under the grip.The question is could this be factory,or was the hole added after.The gun has a 6.5 inch barrel and would rate about 85%.matching numbers and priced around 1,700.00. Is this to much for a scarce 6.5 inch barreled w&k?

bmg60 · #2 09-25-2010, 10:44 AM

hi
if the number is stamped on the side of the butt it is a factory ring.
and no 1700 is not to much for a 6 /2 a ball park number for the 6 1/2
inch models made is between 100 and 500 based on the numbers we have seen over the last 20 years.
jim fisher

lowhog · #3 09-25-2010, 12:05 PM

Jim my mistake. the gun was shipped around 1938 and the numbers on the grips do not match.My guess it should have the pre war magna's on it.The price is just under 1600.00

Hondo44 · #4 09-25-2010, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowhog

Jim my mistake. the gun was shipped around 1938 and the numbers on the grips do not match.My guess it should have the pre war magna's on it.The price is just under 1600.00

Those are correct 1930's vintage 'service' grips w/ flat silver medallions. And although not numbered to the gun, could be correct for it. I believe the magnas of that period only came on the target model 44s and registered 357 mags before the war. Perhaps someone w/ more whiskers than I can correct me if incorrect. I wouldn't hesitate to buy that gun however.

1Aspenhill · #5 09-25-2010, 06:18 PM

No, the factory ordered all N frames equipped with Magnas in 1936, so unless it was specially ordered with service grips, Magnas would be correct. Hard to find gun and would not let grips stop me if the rest of the gun was right.
Hope this helps,
Bill

lowhog · #6 09-25-2010, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Those are correct 1930's vintage 'service' grips w/ flat silver medallions. And although not numbered to the gun, could be correct for it. I believe the magnas of that period only came on the target model 44s and registered 357 mags before the war. Perhaps someone w/ more whiskers than I can correct me if incorrect. I wouldn't hesitate to buy that gun however.

I believe the late 38/44 pre war heavy dutys and outdoorsman also had the large silver madalions magna's

Hondo44 · #7 09-25-2010, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowhog

I believe the late 38/44 pre war heavy dutys and outdoorsman also had the large silver madalions magna's

So what N frames did the 30's vintage service grips come on? Were they standard with magnas as an option? Thanks for the info.

Muley Gil · #8 09-25-2010, 08:38 PM

"So what N frames did the 30's vintage service grips come on?

All of them before the 1936 order to go to Magna grips.

Onomea · #9 09-25-2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowhog

....It has a lanyard ring hole through the serial number on the butt,and the serial number is stamped on the frame under the grip...

I thought factory installed lanyard rings had the SNs offset, and that a hole through the SN indicated a non-factory installation. The SN "on the frame under the grip" does not sound factory either, if under means you need to take the grip panel off to see the SN....

lowhog · #10 09-25-2010, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onomea

I thought factory installed lanyard rings had the SNs offset, and that a hole through the SN indicated a non-factory installation. The SN "on the frame under the grip" does not sound factory either, if under means you need to take the grip panel off to see the SN....

Correct,you need to take the grip panel off.

Hondo44 · #11 09-25-2010, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onomea

I thought factory installed lanyard rings had the SNs offset, and that a hole through the SN indicated a non-factory installation. The SN "on the frame under the grip" does not sound factory either, if under means you need to take the grip panel off to see the SN....

This indicates the frame was in inventory w/o a lanyard ring and an order was received for a gun with a lanyard ring. So the factory accomodated. Batches of guns ordered with lanyard rings had the serial number on the butt, sometimes off ctr and sometimes with the lanyard ring off ctr. As usual however, the main rule is, there are no hard and fast rules; only trends and exceptions. That's my understanding and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I still have some learning to do, and I always do!

lowhog · #12 09-25-2010, 10:13 PM

maybe these pictures will clear things up.the sn# on the butt was drilled thru.the number was restamped as shown in picture number two.

Onomea · #13 09-25-2010, 10:15 PM

I just looked at the picture, and right you are about the hole not being through the SN. (Oops. now I see it in the second set of pix. It is through the SN.) But how about the SN being visible only with the grip panel off? Sounds like the SN is located where the factory would have put a rework date. (Yep. Looking at the second set of pictures now.)

The factory would have put the SN on the outside, the visible part, of the grip frame, don't you think?

Edited: I think it clear that the lanyard hole is not factory.

Pontiaker · #14 09-25-2010, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

"So what N frames did the 30's vintage service grips come on?

All of them before the 1936 order to go to Magna grips.

If this was true you would think we would see a hell of alot more N frame Magnas for sale than we do now. You see these guns for sale and most dont have the Magnas.

Hondo44 · #15 09-25-2010, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onomea

I just looked at the picture, and right you are about the hole not being through the SN. (Oops. now I see it in the second set of pix. It is through the SN.) But how about the SN being visible only with the grip panel off? Sounds like the SN is located where the factory would have put a rework date. (Yep. Looking at the second set of pictures now.)

The factory would have put the SN on the outside, the visible part, of the grip frame, don't you think?

Edited: I think it clear that the lanyard hole is not factory.

Onomea,
Yes, I agree with you, like the I frames with square butt where they stamped on the front grip strap. I also agree drilled thru the number looks very unprofessional! However, that's not what I've been led to believe by the more "learned" collectors (not that they are always right). But if you search in this forum's prior posts you should find previous posts with their opinions. Maybe Lee will chime in. I wouldn't mind having my memory refreshed.

Muley Gil · #16 09-25-2010, 10:48 PM

"I thought factory installed lanyard rings had the SNs offset, and that a hole through the SN indicated a non-factory installation."

If someone ordered a revolver with a lanyard loop and the factory had one built but without a lanyard, they would drill through the serial number and stamp the SN on the side of the grip frame.

Only a factory letter will confirm.

lowhog · #17 09-26-2010, 08:12 AM

Here are some more pictures.the question is is it still worth the 1,595.00 asking price?.I know it has a scarce 6.5 inch barrel.but the condition, the hole thru the sn# and the cheaper incorrect pre war grips gives me dought.He did find the lanyard ring for it.44he 3.JPG

44he 9.JPG

44he 10.JPG

44he 4.JPG

44he 6.JPG

Dan M · #18 09-26-2010, 08:37 AM

I have had this discussion with a few of the more knowledable old time collectors and they have all said the same thing. "If the serial # was disturbed on the butt the factory would re-stamp the serial # under the grip panel"

I personally say these mods are factory to this 44, the condition would make me try to get it for a lesser price but If I really "needed" it then I would step up....

Dan

linde · #19 09-26-2010, 08:55 AM

While I can’t confirm the factory placed the lanyard ring on this specific S&W . . . only a factory letter can do that . . . I can confirm what others have said that the factory would place a lanyard ring hole through the serial number and, when they did, stamped the s/n on the side of the frame under the left stock panel.

Here is an M&P target shipped in 1931 with a factory letter confirming the lanyard ring was placed by the factory.

For twenty years I agonized over who “added” the lanyard ring until I broke down and requested a factory letter.

Russ

lowhog · #20 09-26-2010, 09:27 AM

Dan and Russ thanks for clearing this up.I still think the price is alittle on the high side like Dan mentioned.I will see what I can do on it.

handejector · #21 09-26-2010, 10:50 AM

First,
BUY the gun. It is worth the money.

Second,
The swivel IS factory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

This indicates the frame was in inventory w/o a lanyard ring and an order was received for a gun with a lanyard ring. So the factory accomodated. Batches of guns ordered with lanyard rings had the serial number on the butt, sometimes off ctr and sometimes with the lanyard ring off ctr. As usual however, the main rule is, there are no hard and fast rules; only trends and exceptions. That's my understanding and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I still have some learning to do, and I always do!

There was a jig for drilling swivel holes. I have NEVER seen a swivel hole on a K or N frame that was located anywhere but the standard place, which is ALWAYS app 1/10 inch forward of center. If you measure them by hand, don't be fooled by slight differences in how much corner rounding there is- it is always app 1/10 inch forward.

_____________________________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Aspenhill

No, the factory ordered all N frames equipped with Magnas in 1936, so unless it was specially ordered with service grips, Magnas would be correct. Hard to find gun and would not let grips stop me if the rest of the gun was right.
Hope this helps,
Bill

Bill,
You are correct- the order was issued in Feb, 36, but I don't believe they rushed into compliance. We see a lot of guns shipped after that with service stocks.
There was also a new catalog for 39, and it does NOT show all N frames with magnas.
The 40 catalog DOES.
___________________________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onomea

I thought factory installed lanyard rings had the SNs offset, and that a hole through the SN indicated a non-factory installation. The SN "on the frame under the grip" does not sound factory either, if under means you need to take the grip panel off to see the SN....

Don't forget that a factory employee knew he could simply open the cyl, and read the number on barrel and cyl. Stamped under the grip keppt them legal, and DID NOT MAR the FINISH on a finished gun.
It is also possible that stamping the frontstrap could raise some uncomfortable feeling burrs. The guns normally stamped on the frontstrap like the Reg Pol models were stamped before final buffing. We are dealing with a finished gun here that they did NOT want to refinish.

If a small order came in for a gun or a few guns with swivels, and those guns were already built, they did NOT build guns to fill the order. They drilled existing guns in this manner. Especially for this gun- the 6.5 inch. It was a TURKEY! They weren't selling- that is why they are rare today.

Also-
A factory swivel will NOT always letter. IF S&W threw it in on the deal for free, it is NOT on the invoice, so there is currently no way to document it unless SWHF research turns up correspondence about the order.

Last-
I can't tell with the rust on the backstrap, but examine it closely for ground off markings.
The Washington State Police bought 6.5 inch N frames in both 38 and 44 that were marked on the backstrap. They almost always ground the markings off before selling. I don't think that gun is ground, but always look.

Hondo44 · #22 09-26-2010, 01:51 PM

For me, the factory lanyard ring adds to it's uniqeness. I would get it; cheaper if I could. How far apart is the number on the grip from the gun number?

lowhog · #23 09-26-2010, 02:06 PM

Jim,not sure about the number on the grips.I know they do not match.I will find out monday on the grip #.Lowhog

Onomea · #24 09-26-2010, 05:21 PM

Well, I'll be darned! I stand corrected. I did not know that about the factory stamping the SN under the grip panel. The swivel is factory.

Thanks for the education, guys!

bettis1 · #25 09-26-2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmg60

hi
if the number is stamped on the side of the butt it is a factory ring.
and no 1700 is not to much for a 6 /2 a ball park number for the 6 1/2
inch models made is between 100 and 500 based on the numbers we have seen over the last 20 years.
jim fisher

See, you guys should have listened to "old Jim" and you would have saved yourselves all that consternation.

Just as a point of interest, I wonder how many of you will admit to having a 6.5" W & K?

Bob

JayCeeNC · #26 09-27-2010, 12:46 AM

Bob, I have a 6.5" 3rd Model .44 HE, but it shipped to a hardware store in Raton, NM, and not to W&K. Service grips, too, but no grip adapter.

Dan M · #27 09-27-2010, 08:07 AM

Well its always possible its one of those RARE 44 special Heavy Duties

Dan

JayCeeNC · #28 09-27-2010, 10:34 AM

Dan, that's what I'll call it if I ever decide to get rid of it--RARE and valuable!!

bk43 · #29 09-27-2010, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bettis1

Just as a point of interest, I wonder how many of you will admit to having a 6.5" W & K?

These can't be too rare as even I have one.

The ring is not mentioned in the letter but the serial number placement tells me it is factory. Opinions? The gun itself is near dead mint but there's not much left of what appears to be case hardening on the ring. Is that normal finish for the ring...I have no clue.

Bob

230grfmj · #30 09-27-2010, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan M

Well its always possible its one of those RARE 44 special Heavy Duties

Dan

Here is some info from the 1939 S&W catalog about them too.

Hondo44 · #31 09-27-2010, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bk43

These can't be too rare as even I have one.

The ring is not mentioned in the letter but the serial number placement tells me it is factory. Opinions? The gun itself is near dead mint but there's not much left of what appears to be case hardening on the ring. Is that normal finish for the ring...I have no clue.

Bob

Bob,
That's a beauty!! I surmise the ring wasn't mentioned in the letter because it was made with a ring and not specifically requested. It's off center with the serial # off ctr as I mentioned above and that Lee corrected as always being 1/10" off ctr.

Hondo44 · #32 09-27-2010, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 230grfmj

Here is some info from the 1939 S&W catalog about them too.

That's very interesting. So in that catalog under 38/44 HD, S&W was just referring to the 44 Hand ejector 3rd model with shrouded ejector, a.k.a. Model of 1926 or Wolf & Klar Mod. since it wasn't separately cataloged until 1940. And the only specifically cataloged 44 model in 1939 was the 2nd model w/o shrouded ejector.

bettis1 · #33 09-27-2010, 06:01 PM

bk43,

My # 29333 is a twin of yours and like yours, it is as close to factory new as you are likely to find. My swivel also looks like yours.

My gun shipped from the factory to Wolf & Klar on April 20, 1927 and the letter states in part: "The invoice does not list any of the revolvers in this shipment equipped with a butt swivel. This shipment was for 75 units of which 28 were shipped with 6.5 inch barrels and blue finish. They were all billed at $21.90 each".

Lee, these may be "TURKEYS", but they are pretty impressive "big old TURKEYS". None of those sissy little holes in the end of this bad boy!!

Bob

lowhog · #34 09-28-2010, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

For me, the factory lanyard ring adds to it's uniqeness. I would get it; cheaper if I could. How far apart is the number on the grip from the gun number?

Jim,the serial number on the grip pannel is 45658:that would put them around 1936? and the 44 around 1938.Who knew back then what prewar magnas or the revolvers would be worth today.

peyton · #35 09-29-2010, 04:04 AM

Don't keep us in suspense, did ya buy it???

lowhog · #36 10-01-2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peyton

Don't keep us in suspense, did ya buy it???

Yes I did

Elkslayer49 · #37 10-04-2014, 11:58 PM

I also have a 44 HE 3rd model blue finish with a 6 1/2" barrel with a ring on the butt of the frame, serial 29542. My serial number is off-center and stamped on one side of the hole in the frame. The lanyard ring finish is also very faded like the other examples in this thread. I don't know if this revolver went through the Wolf and Klar distributor as I haven't requested a letter yet.

Added Photos per request!

lowhog · #38 10-05-2014, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elkslayer49

I also have a 44 HE 3rd model blue finish with a 6 1/2" barrel with a ring on the butt of the frame, serial 29542. My serial number is off-center and stamped on one side of the hole in the frame. The lanyard ring finish is also very faded like the other examples in this thread. I don't know if this revolver went through the Wolf and Klar distributor as I haven't requested a letter yet.

We like pictures.

Elkslayer49 · #39 10-05-2014, 12:09 PM

Added Photos of the .44 HE 3rd Model with 6.5" barrel, serial on one side of lanyard hole. This is a shooter grade .44 HE 3rd model that someone used as their duty gun.

It's shoots really well, I've always been a fan of adjustable target sights, but this one actually puts the hole in the paper exactly where the military sights are pointed, which really surprised me to be honest.