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10-01-2010, 04:52 PM
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U.S. Marked M&P?
NOTE: New pics added below for clarification.................
Today, I found what I think is an M&P.
It's a 6", blue, .38 cal 5 screw with target hammer and trigger. Magna grips and US219xx on the butt. Grips are unmarked and the gun has fixed sights. There is a number on the yoke that is different from the butt marking but I couldn't make it out.
Is the number on the butt the serial #? If so, the 219xx range would make it a model of 1902......but the US marking throws me off. In the book, they note that there were guns marked US that were purchased by the Army in 1941-1942 but the book doesn't give a number range. I'm confused.
Here's a really bad pic...sorry but my camera and I don't get along.
Any thoughts?
Last edited by dnonac; 10-02-2010 at 01:13 PM.
Reason: added pics below
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10-01-2010, 05:36 PM
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Identical numerical sequences can be found in S&W serial numbers, with a letter prefix serving to distinguish two different serial number ranges.
The gun in the picture is actually of postwar manufacture, probably no earlier than the late 1950s. I say that based on the wide semi-target trigger, the low-spur hammer profile, and the ejector rod tip that is the same diameter as the ejector shaft. I don't know if the stocks are original to the gun, but they are no earlier than 1968 based on design features.
If you open the cylinder, you might see a stamp like MOD 10 on the frame where the yoke closes against it. There would also be another number, the "fitting number," which is meaningless once a serial number goes on the revolver.
I am unfamiliar with a US-prefix serial number. Can you post a picture of the number stamping on the butt of the gun? There was briefly an SV prefix in 1945, but all those serial numbers had a first numeral no lower than 7, so your gun could not be one of those.
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David Wilson
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10-01-2010, 05:40 PM
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The number on the bottom of the grip frame should be the true SN, but that is not a correct one. Pre-WW II guns only had digits, WW II guns had the V or SV prefix, then postwar there were the S, C, D and three-letter prefixes. US stampings should be elsewhere, like the topstrap or backstrap. Are you able to post a close-up of the SN?
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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220
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10-01-2010, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphydog
The number on the bottom of the grip frame should be the true SN, but that is not a correct one. Pre-WW II guns only had digits, WW II guns had the V or SV prefix, then postwar there were the S, C, D and three-letter prefixes. US stampings should be elsewhere, like the topstrap or backstrap. Are you able to post a close-up of the SN?
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Alan, thanks.
The gun is at a pawn shop and the frame butt stamping is clearly "US 21939". I'll stop by there tomorrow and take some better pics.
I saw no model marking on the yoke, just a few numbers I assumed to be fitting numbers or such. I did remove the grips but found no unusual (to me) markings on the frame there.
I'm way curious now.
Thanks,
Craig...
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10-01-2010, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWilson
Identical numerical sequences can be found in S&W serial numbers, with a letter prefix serving to distinguish two different serial number ranges.
The gun in the picture is actually of postwar manufacture, probably no earlier than the late 1950s. I say that based on the wide semi-target trigger, the low-spur hammer profile, and the ejector rod tip that is the same diameter as the ejector shaft. I don't know if the stocks are original to the gun, but they are no earlier than 1968 based on design features.
If you open the cylinder, you might see a stamp like MOD 10 on the frame where the yoke closes against it. There would also be another number, the "fitting number," which is meaningless once a serial number goes on the revolver.
I am unfamiliar with a US-prefix serial number. Can you post a picture of the number stamping on the butt of the gun? There was briefly an SV prefix in 1945, but all those serial numbers had a first numeral no lower than 7, so your gun could not be one of those.
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David, in the book, under .38 M&P 4th change, they mention that a group of these handguns were bought by the army in 41-41 and were often marked US on either the frame or the butt. No serial range is given.
No chance this could be one of those?
Craig...
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10-01-2010, 06:11 PM
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I just called the pawn shop and asked the guy to verify the butt number. He confirms US 21939 and no model marking on the yoke.
Some additional info....on the frame right side it has the full stamp Made in USA, Marcas Registradas etc etc etc rather than just the Made in USA stamp.
Thanks..
Craig
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10-01-2010, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnonac
David, in the book, under .38 M&P 4th change, they mention that a group of these handguns were bought by the army in 41-41 and were often marked US on either the frame or the butt. No serial range is given.
No chance this could be one of those?
Craig...
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I don't see how. Everything about the gun in the picture says postwar, short-throw action. A 1940-41 gun would have had the long-action frame that requires a hammer different from the one on the gun now. If there is no model number on the frame, then it could be a pre-10 fitted out later with a target hammer and trigger. But it would still have to be a short-action gun, which means a manufacturing date no earlier than 1947.
A really interesting piece. I hope you can get to the bottom of it with a return visit and further inspection.
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David Wilson
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10-01-2010, 06:31 PM
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I'll get down there in the morning on my way to a gun show. Probably have the pics posted by mid afternoon.
I'll try and take pics of the crown area, butt stampings and both sides of the gun.
Thanks for all the info.
Craig....
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10-01-2010, 06:40 PM
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Most curious...hopefully someone didn't remove the original SN and restamp it with an inventory or some other code. That would get into legal problems.
Be sure to check the rear cylinder face and the barrel flat (above the ejector rod) for an alternative number; if those match it is likely the true SN.
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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220
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10-01-2010, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphydog
Most curious...hopefully someone didn't remove the original SN and restamp it with an inventory or some other code. That would get into legal problems.
Be sure to check the rear cylinder face and the barrel flat (above the ejector rod) for an alternative number; if those match it is likely the true SN.
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I was thinking the same thing myself. As I recall, the inside of the yoke looked like it might have been roughed up a bit but I'll get a better look tomorrow.
Craig...
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10-01-2010, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnonac
It's a 6", blue, .38 cal 5 screw with target hammer and trigger.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWilson
If you open the cylinder, you might see a stamp like MOD 10 on the frame where the yoke closes against it.
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C'mon, now- how many Model marked 5 screw guns have you seen?
dnonac-
You referenced "the book" a couple of times. Which book? I have never seen a reference to a US butt marking with the serial number. I have never seen or heard of a gun so marked.
If that is definitely a 5 screw, the serial number would have been 5 places on the metal- butt, back of cyl, bottom of barrel, back of ext, back edge of yoke facing cyl.
IF all 4 other numbers match, but do not match the butt number, the gun was simply remarked sometime by some idiot/crook/swindler.
It is a post war gun.
Target trigger
Semi-target hammer
I assume it is 38 Special?
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Lee Jarrett
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10-01-2010, 07:41 PM
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DEFINITELY let us see those butt markings in a clear pic.
That should tell the tale.
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Lee Jarrett
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10-01-2010, 07:45 PM
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Everything Lee said! Short throw hammer makes it post-1948 or so. 4-line side address makes it a few years later. With those features, if it is in fact a 5-screw frame, then the serial will start with a 'C'. There were a few early short actions that were at the very end of the 'S' serial numbers, but none of them should have the 4-line address. Later Model 10s used a 'D' prefix, then a one or two digit number followed by a D.
If those are its original grips, then it's NOT a 5-screw and would be from after 1968.
There have been rare instances where the BATF would assign a generic number to a gun whose serial had been defaced, but these are usually a strange mix of numbers and letters not likely to be repeated by the factory.
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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292
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10-01-2010, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handejector
C'mon, now- how many Model marked 5 screw guns have you seen?
dnonac-
You referenced "the book" a couple of times. Which book? I have never seen a reference to a US butt marking with the serial number. I have never seen or heard of a gun so marked.
If that is definitely a 5 screw, the serial number would have been 5 places on the metal- butt, back of cyl, bottom of barrel, back of ext, back edge of yoke facing cyl.
IF all 4 other numbers match, but do not match the butt number, the gun was simply remarked sometime by some idiot/crook/swindler.
It is a post war gun.
Target trigger
Semi-target hammer
I assume it is 38 Special?
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It is .38 Special. The "book" is the SCSW 3rd edition and the reference to US markings on the butt came from the section on M&P 1905 4th change HE's on page 140; left side of page, 4th bullet item beginning with "Other "U.S." marked........
I realize the 5 digit number doesn't fit with that model gun (if it is a serial number) but since I don't know what it is I looked until I found the reference to the US marking.
The reference only states that the "US" marking is on the butt or left side of frame and makes no mention of serial number.
I didn't spend a lot of time with the gun but I did look on the yoke and cylinder and didn't notice a number. Didn't check the bottom of barrel but I'll do that in the morning.
I know very little about M&P's but thought the US marking might make it a little more special than others I've seen.
That's all I got! Maybe I missed something. Either way, I'll man-up and post the pics. I've already learned some stuff and looks like I'll learn more tomorrow.
Craig...
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10-01-2010, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handejector
C'mon, now- how many Model marked 5 screw guns have you seen?
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Well, not that many. But as the Forum wise men keep telling me, never say never when it comes to S&W.
But I cop to the oversight; I was so focused on the picture that I overlooked what the OP said about the gun that supplemented what could be seen in the pic. So we may conclude the non-diamond magnas are a later addition; the hammer/trigger set may be later additions, but other possibilities should be considered as well.
Tomorrow's photos will help a lot.
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David Wilson
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10-02-2010, 01:11 PM
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Pictures Added!
OK guys, I stopped by the pawn shop this morning and took some additional pics. Here's what I found.
1-Serial number on barrel flat agrees with number on butt. The only difference is that the number on the butt has "US" in front of it.
2-No serial number found anywhere else. Not on cylinder, ejector, inside frame....
3- It is a 5 screw gun
4- the letter "M" appears on the yoke above another set of numbers (see pic)
Here are the pics. Quality is not good but maybe will help.
What say you?
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10-02-2010, 01:18 PM
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Now that is just odd.
Butt numbers scream "restamp", but even so, the barrel SN looks even, from what I can see of it, but that number is way off for the short action.
Odd.
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Last edited by Buford57; 10-02-2010 at 01:20 PM.
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10-02-2010, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buford57
Now that is just odd.
Butt numbers scream "restamp", but even so, the barrel SN looks even, from what I can see of it, but that number is way off for the short action.
Odd.
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I agree. Here's one more pic of the barrel flat...blurry but you can make the number out. The number is much straighter than the photo makes it appear.
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10-02-2010, 01:50 PM
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The barrel MAY be orig to that frame. If so, that would have been
"C 21939".
The cyl should have been numbered. Did you check the yoke?
The butt number was NOT stamped at factory IMO.
Stay off the gun. IMO, nothing but a parts gun with a restamped butt number that is fake.
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Lee Jarrett
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10-02-2010, 07:17 PM
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Lunch Box Revolver!
Looks like a
'Lunch Box Revolver' left the S&W factory one piece at a time, in someones lunch box!
D R
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