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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 10-15-2010, 01:13 AM
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Please feel free to post your post-war or (pre-war) Reg Police models.
Let's see what kind of variety we get.


While I have one of each, I thought I would show you a Transition 32 and 38 Regulation Police.

They are basically like pre-war guns with a few notable differences.

Transition 32 Reg Police, 3-1/4 inch. The grips on this gun are not numbered and I find that curious.-





Both have the straight ejector rod-




Grips and barrels on both guns lack patenet dates-







Both guns are coil spring guns and lack the strain screw in the frontstrap.
Both guns have the stepped backstrap on a round butt frame with the extension square butt stocks-





Both guns have the post-war thumb latch that is not undercut.
The hammers and triggers lack the "US Pat Off" which was dropped during WW II-




Both of these guns have the 4 line address, placing them in 48 or after -




Both guns have the Safety Hammer Block-



38 Regulation Police #68415-
4 inch.
The grips on this gun are numbered to it-




Note that the barrel lacks the "Regulation Police" marking above the caliber seen on pre-war 38 RP's.
Oddly, the 32 RP never had that marking even in the pre-war period-



This is probably how most or all of these models will look from 48 to 53 or 54 when the more
modern frames having oval trigger guards and longer gripframes with true square butts take over.
Before 48, expect to find varying combinations of pre-war and post-war features as pre-war parts were used up!
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Old 10-15-2010, 01:35 AM
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Thank you for the preview of coming attractions. I have .38 RP 58470 coming to me within the next few days. It was the B gun in an A-B double pack at the Poulin auction earlier this month. Roy gave me a July 1951 date on that number.

Every time I think I have learned when the coil spring first appeared, something pops up to make me realize I haven't got it yet. Back to the books...
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Old 10-15-2010, 09:53 AM
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Lee,
You are a great teacher! I thought you had lost that skill with all those PLFs you did on landing!hahaha
Bill
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Old 10-17-2010, 08:26 PM
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Please post your post-war or (pre-war) Reg Police models. Let's see what kind of variety we get.
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Old 10-18-2010, 11:53 AM
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.38 Reg Pol. 4", non-medallion stocks pencil numbered to gun and patent date on bottom, Round butt and stepped cut to fit Sq butt stocks, S/N 2786X and numbered on cylinder and barrel flat also, shipped Dec. 1925. Is is near new condition "Except" for the half doz. ugly rust spots where it had gotten wet and put away sometime in it's past. Anyway it is a good shooter.

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Old 10-18-2010, 03:07 PM
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Lee, 2 very nice examples of what I refer to as post war I frame 1st improvements. Of course the obvious characteristic being the lack of leaf spring/strain screw as you indicated. I further categorize them as mid-transition post war models for the following reasons:

1. they have the 2nd style post war semi-sculpted thumblatch which preceeded the flat latch. The 1st types having more similar sculpturing to the pre war but without the relief of the pre-war behind the checkered pad.

2. they still have 1/2 penny front sights which were changed to ramp front sights with 1st use of the 2nd type flat latch (1st type flat latch not used on 32s and 38s to my knowledge, but I never say never) which I refer to as the last transition model just before the 1953 I frame 2nd improvement.

Here's a photo showing the progression; sorry for such small pictures.

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Old 10-18-2010, 03:56 PM
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I've added some text to go along with the guns in photos.

************The Post War I Frame Evolution: .22/32 Kits and Targets, .32 Hand Ejectors, .32 & .38 Reg Police and .38 Terriers**************

Typos, exclusions or whatever one calls them exist in the SCSW and particularly differentiating between the I frame Improved and the Model of 1953 I frame which are actually a new model. Don’t get me wrong it's a most excellent reference and probably the best in existence. But the intriguing and confusing evolution of these post war/1950s 'I' frames surpasses any of the other Smith frame sizes of the period.
Therefore, here is an outline to fill in the gaps in the book assembled to help put them in context with serial number breaks as much as we forum members have been able to document so far:


THE POST WAR I FRAMES EVOLUTION: .22/32 Kit Gun and Target, .32 Hand Ejector, .32 & .38 S&W Reg. Police and .38 S&W Terrier:

1. Transitional I frames c. 1946, leaf main spring w/tension screw on forestrap: These are "5 screw" models, 6 screws in total counting the tension screw: round sight, small trigger guard and short rd grip frame or rebated frame w/sq butt stocks, (all reportedly have new style hammer block). .22/32s and .32s beginning as low as 5346XX (Two in 521XXX range recorded as shipped in 1948 and 9/49, probably do not have the new style rebound slide operated hammer block reportedly begun at # 536,685), #544030 lowest observed; .38 S&W beginning c. 1948 at # 54475; as high as 582XX w/rd top stocks.

---- a) Pre war/post war Transitional: uses many pre war parts. (includes the non-Model #’d 1957 issue .32 Regulation Police Targets in the low #657XXX range).

---- b) Pure post war Transitional: uses new post war parts. No .22/32s, .32s (up to #550740 highest # known). A few small guns were sold in the late '40s mostly made up from prewar parts. Actual .38 S&W production in volume didn't resume until about 1950, 54804 lowest and 58470 highest known shipped in July 1951.

2. "Improved I frames" w/coil main spring: "5 screw" model, (the tension, 6th screw eliminated), otherwise same features as the above Transitionals. Exception: late issues have ramp front sight and barrel rib. These are not pre models. No .22/32s, .32s (beginning at #554536, lowest # known shipped 12/51, #611398 highest known), .38s (highest round sight 70XXX [#68,XXX 2/53], lowest known ramp site 70131, 71983 highest, shipped Jan. 12, 1954).

3. Model of 1953 New I Frames, (the true “Pre-Model #” guns), coil mainspring: These are "4 screw" & "3 screw" models, larger trigger guard (no screw, longer rd butt grip frame and new style sq butt. Bright blue finishes begin to appear and eventually predominate. .22/32s (beginning in new serial range starting w/#101), .32s (beginning at about #613XXX), .38s (a 4 screw, old hammer #7671X).

4. Model #’d guns c.1957, otherwise identical to the Mod of 1953: 22/32 I frames Models 34 & 35 (beginning c. #37XXX), replaced by J frames Oct. 1960, -1 added (c. #70,XXX), the .32s and .38s in early 1961, -1 added (.32s Models 30 & 31 beginning c. #650XXX to #712954, highest # known, and .38s Models 32 & 33, c. #88XXX).


The 1st photo below shows .32s only but will serve to illustrate the above categories for all calibers except as noted.

Top left, Reference only: Pre war .32 HE Mod 1903-5th change, #205628, mid 1914, 3 1/4", 'I' frame, factory pearl grips with gold medallions. Note the pre c. 1928 distinctive “mushroom” extractor knob.


1.Transitional: .22/32 Kit Gun (and Targets if any made) Rd Butt or Rebated Sq Butt, .32 Hand Ejector Rd Butt, .32 & .38 Reg. Police Rebated Sq Butt (see .38 R. P. Rd Butt exception below) and .38 Terrier Rd Butt:

a) Pre war/post war: (second gun on left. Reg. Police shown). Very similar to pre war I frames: leaf mainspring, short grip frame, round ½ penny front sight, smooth trigger (except Kit Guns use ½ round USRA ‘pocket sight’ and grooved triggers), with improved hammer block safety (the post war telltale feature) but pre war shaped hammer (there was no change from long to short throw hammers on I frames), matte finish, single line “Made In U.S.A.” only (no Marcas Registradas or address on right side frame until 1948). A small S&W logo on the left side of the frame is pretty much standard. 2”, 3 1/4” & 4 1/4” barrels (4” on .38s, and 6” targets are reported), with patent dates on barrel. Kit Gun .22/32s with 4” barrel only, (Target .22/32s with 6” barrel have been reported). All models continue in their respective pre war serial number ranges: which is the same for .22/32s and .32s but a separate range for .38 S&Ws. Two inch barrels on .32s and .38s can have a unique two line roll mark on the left side of the barrel with the SMITH & WESSON line centered with the caliber line centered below it. These early .22/32s and .32s still have the smaller (than 38 S&W) pre war cylinder diameter and frame window. Serial numbers in 6 places including stamped backside of the right stock; 9 places including front sight, rear sight and rear sight blade for the 22/32 Kit Guns same as on pre-war guns, use pre war target sights, and pre war style round firing pin with one proud retaining pin.

.32 and .38 S&W Regulation Police Models have rebated square butt stocks w/ serial number stamped on front grip strap above the strain screw, except for the uncommon .38 S&W 4” rd butt version, examples of which have ‘lettered’ as RPs. The same configured .32 guns have been observed but .32 Reg. Police Models are not stamped as such on the barrel like .38/32 S&W RP guns. Square butt 2” .38 Terriers have also been observed.
22/32 Kit Guns have grooved triggers, pre war target sights, serial number in eight places including the front and rear sight, Pre war style round firing pin with one proud retaining pin, and round or sq butt rebated stocks.

Can have from all to some of the following pre war details: pre war thumb piece – ‘double hourglass’ with relief cuts under the checkered pad (but can also have Type 1 post war ‘double hourglass’ thumb piece similar to pre war thumb piece but without relief cuts under the checkered pad, just as on the K and N frame sizes), service (round top) stocks or ‘Mini’ Magna stocks (.22/32s & .32s reportedly beginning w/# 557,871; .38s at # 62,381, both on 7/9/51), checkering 16 cut lines per inch (15 rows of diamonds), sharp cornered border (shown), flat chrome plated brass or curved nickel plated brass medallions, large pre war ‘barrel shaped’ extractor knob with right or left hand thread (see note below).

This group includes the 1957 issue .32 Reg. Police Target 'I' frame, a 1957 release non-Model #’d with small trigger guard and leaf mainspring (pre Improved 'I' frame), (Shown 3rd from top on right), 196 made on left over pre war 'I' frames. This model still has the smaller pre war cylinder diameter and frame window.
Frame serial# stamped on front grip strap above the strain screw matching all other #'d parts inc. stocks and sights, 9 locations in all, (in low #657XXX range). 4" barrel, pre war/early postwar rebated rear grip strap with post war type 16 lpi checkering, round cornered border on round top stocks with curved nickel plated brass medallions. You'll notice pre war sights w/special modified post war sight adjusting tool (SAT) to fit tiny sight screws, short action, pre war/early post war hammer, post war grooved trigger, and 3rd type post war (and post 1966 after becoming J frames) non-sculpted thumbpiece while all other I frames of the period still had the third type flat latch. Most features totally out of character with non-target pre Model 31 guns of the 1957 period! But it has the 3rd and last style straight ejector knob (left hand thread), no patent dates on barrel and 4 line address. A very convoluted transition model for sure. Brief details of these 196 guns are on page 128, 3rd edition, Standard Catalog of S&W, Supica and Nahas, pictured pg 127.


b) Pure post war: (third gun on left. 2”, .32 Hand Ejector shown). Similar to above except, no patent dates on barrel, “Made In U.S.A.” with “Marcas Registradas” and address on right side frame (four lines). Usually have straight extractor (left hand thread), ‘Mini’ Magna stocks on round butt guns (.32 at # 557,871, .38 S&W #62,381 both on 7/9/51) with post war curved nickel plated medallions and the pre war checkering of 16 cut lines per inch (15 rows of diamonds) replaced with 13 LPI (12 rows of diamonds) and round cornered borders. Yes that differs from the SCSW by Nahas and Supica but the book conflicts with actual measurements, in fact the earliest triple locks have 17 LPI (16 rows of diamonds). and grooved trigger. Type 2 postwar single hourglass thumb piece or Type 3 non hourglass (pre flat latch) exactly like post ’66 style. Prewar/early postwar hammer. Barrels are still 2”, 3 ¼” and 4 1/4”. The plastic or steel grip medallions usually show up in these early '50s guns, due to the Korean war brass shortage.


2. Improved I: Improved 'I' frame (coil mainspring but still short RB grip, still 5 screw):

(top right gun. 3” .32 HE shown). Otherwise same as above. Can have round front sight and thumb latches as above; later models will have 2nd type flatlatch and serrated ramp front sight w/barrel rib and standardized barrel lengths of 2”, 3” & 4”. I have not observed the 1st type flat latch as used on the Baby J frames, used on I frames (shown on right in second photo below), but doesn’t mean they don’t exist! The .32s begin to show up with the larger cylinder diameter and frame window of the .38 S&W. Very early ‘50s production may have plastic or steel stock medallions.


3. Model of 1953 NEW I Frames; the ‘pre-models’ 4 screw and 3 screw models:

(Second gun on right. 3”.32 Reg. Police), 4 screws, coil mainspring, new larger egg shaped trigger guard, 1/8” longer round butt frame (same as the current J frame .38 Spl. Chiefs Special) and new, current style square butt grip frame and stocks 5/32” longer than the rd butt (1st introduced in 1952 on the ‘Baby J frame’); 14 LPI (13 rows of diamonds); 2”, 3” & 4” barrels, 6” on .22/32 Target; early post war style hammer continued on earliest 1953 models (except 22 /32 which has the new target hammer), but soon changed to the new style, coarse knurled hammer; 2nd style flat latch then 3rd/last style 'tall' flat latch used on all Model 1953 'I' frames (and the J frame .38 Spl Chiefs Special, and .22, .32 and .38 S&W ‘I’ & 'J' frames) after c. 1958 thru c. 1966. Bright blue finishes begin to appear and eventually predominate. Three screw frame models are the same as above except the upper sideplate screw (4th screw) was eliminated beginning late 1955 (c. serial # 640980 on .32s). Early c. 1956, serial # locations gradually decreased from 6 to less locations until eventually just on butt of grip frame, back of extractor star (until late ‘60’s), and back of right stock.

This is the first post war model change for the 22/32 guns and a separate serial number range was begun at # 101; as above except new style .375” wide target hammer, micro click rear target sight, new rectangular shaped firing pin tip with two proud retaining pins introduced, 2” or 4” Kit Guns, J frame size Rd or Sq butt (Round Butt shown in second photo below on top left) and 6” Targets, Sq butt only. I have observed that on the .22/32, the 'bright' blue finishes began in their serial # range around the early to mid 20,000s c. '54 - '55 as well as the flat polishing of the second (rear most) retaining pin for the firing pin. Also by this time .22/32s begin to show up with the larger cylinder diameter and frame window of the .38 S&W.

The 22/32 kit and target guns transitioned to 3 screw sideplates in their 13,000 to 23,000 serial # range. Later, serial # locations gradually decreased from 6 to less locations (beginning as early as # 23000 range on 22/32s) until eventually just on butt of grip frame, back of extractor star (until late ‘60’s), and back of right stock. The round tip firing pin w/two retaining pins returned in the 29,000 serial number range. I believe the one proud retaining pin was reintroduced Oct. 1960 when .22 I frames were replaced with the J frame and a dash 1 was added to their model numbers. In the later Model of 1953 I frame production period an optional .400” grooved target trigger was offered and after the end of the Diamond stock period c. 1968, target stocks that fit both the round and square butt frames were introduced (shown in second photo).


4. 1957 Model #’d guns:

All models were ordered to have their respective model numbers stamped in the yoke c. 1957.

M30 = .32 HE, M31* = .32 RP, M32 = .38 Terrier, M33 = .38 RP up to c.1961 (.32 and .38 I frames converted to J frames). *Late production could be had w/rd or sq butt after 1976 when Mod 30 ceased, until 1991 when discontinued.)

M34 = .22/32Kit Gun, M35 = .22/32 Target up to Oct. 1960 (.22 I frames converted to J frames).

NOTES:
1) Many wonder what the little iron cross like marks are at the beginning and end of the cartridge roll mark on the barrel. They are a common typographical ornamentation called a “dingbat” used as a guide called "feet" to begin and end the barrel rollmarking and keep it straight, from back in the day. For example: they show up on pre war I frames in 32 and 38 and appear on early 22/32s then show up again after WW II. The little M frame .22 has them on both ends of the cartridge roll stamp. Triple locks and other models have them atop the barrel on both ends of the address and patent dates, etc.

Photo in post #4 here: 32 LONG CTG HELP ID.
IRON CROSS dingbat shown here: http://thinkdesignblog.com/typograph...gbat-fonts.htm

2) There has not been any pre war or post war .38 S&W Target models observed to date but 6” is reported.

3) A change in the early 1960’s was the hammer to spring strut junction from ball/socket to the fork/pin.

4) The post war I frames were changed to left hand threads on straight extractor rods soon after the commencement of production following WW II, therefore their spawn, the 1950 introduced J frame Chiefs Special, began life with left hand threads on straight extractor rods.

Just for the record however, and not affecting J frames; I must acknowledge that early post war I frames were produced with right hand threads and these are identifiable by the pre war 'barrel' style extractor rod knob,
BUT: a very scarce few 'late', early post war I frames with the "barrel" knob have been observed with left hand threads! Again this is irrelevant to J frames.
To summarize: on the post war I and J frames; all straight extractor rods are left hand thread, but on the I frames not every "barrel" type extractor rod is right hand thread! As usual with Smiths, the I frame extractor rod changes were subject to a transition period of a couple of years.

5) All fixed sight I models have smooth triggers before the war which continued on the earliest post war transitional but were changed to grooved during the pre war/post war models and preceding the Improved Model.
6) The front trigger guard screw was eliminated when this model received the egg shaped trigger guard change, referred to as the Model of 1953 which also included the change to the J frame length grip on the I and J frame (38 Spl). Suffice it to say that there are no 5 screw Models of 1953, notwithstanding an Airweight J frame with a lock screw on the upper sideplate screw.
7) Before c. 1953 model, I and J frames had rounder trigger guards with the front (5th) screw and I frame length (short) grip frames and were all '5 screw models'. After c. 1953, the I and J frames were all ‘4 screw models' both had egg shaped trigger guards and J frame length grips. After Oct. 1960, 22/32 I frames and 1961 for .32 and .38 I frames, all were changed to J frames and a -1 was added to the model number.
These are only my observations and I appreciate anyone else's observations to add to the data base.

8) Pre models:
For the benefit of others to make up their own minds to be precise or to be confusing:
a pre model number described gun is just that, it's not a name, it's an accurate description to distinguish between the "Model .38 Chiefs Special Airweight" that DOES NOT look like the model numbered guns and the models of 1953 "Model .38 Chiefs Special AW" " that DOES look like the model numbered version. It's a useful description to avoid confusion and to be precise when discussing Models that have the same name but different features which is very common.

9) Checkering:
Triple Locks 17 LPI (16 rows of diamonds)
HFT pre and post 1920s inc. Kit Guns 16 LPI (15 rows of diamonds)
Early post war I frames 13 LPI (12 rows of diamonds)
1953 Kit Gun 14 LPI (13 rows of diamonds)

These are only my observations and I appreciate anyone else's observations to add to the data base.






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Old 10-18-2010, 05:15 PM
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Jim, is that a 4" or 4.25" barrel on the postwar RP Target? I have seen them described both ways.

This is one of the 196 units with serial numbers in the 657xxx range, right?
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Old 10-18-2010, 10:03 PM
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Jim, is that a 4" or 4.25" barrel on the postwar RP Target? I have seen them described both ways.

This is one of the 196 units with serial numbers in the 657xxx range, right?
David,
Sorry I neglected to list that: it's exactly 4" and yes it's one of the 196. Serial # 657298.
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:35 AM
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Old 10-27-2010, 02:32 AM
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Default An early postwar .38 RP

This is 58470, the gun I alluded to in an earlier post in this thread.





A round butt RP? Yes. As you see in the top photo, it says so on the barrel.

The serial number is, unsurprisingly, in the .38 RP series. You can also see that this gun, which shipped in July 1951, still uses the flat mainspring; it has a strain screw.



The backstrap is not rebated (which is one of the reasons you can get away with round butt stocks) and the serial number is on the butt of the gun rather than on the forestrap. It's almost like this is a .38/32 Terrier with a four inch barrel.

It has the early postwar thumb release -- the one without the prewar "hourglass" waist. Everything else looks like a leftover part from a decade earlier (except that the frame has the four-line address block).




This gun's in pretty good shape. I don't think it was fired after leaving the factory. It wasn't stored with the best of care, and there are a few freckles on the top strap and sideplate, as well as a dragline from a cylinder stop that used to have a sharper leading edge to it than it does as of an hour ago. I'd call it a 98% gun. If it had been stored in an oilcloth it would still look 99+%.
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Old 10-27-2010, 12:54 PM
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Hi David,

That is truly an impressive and interesting piece, not only for the condition but all the anomolies you mention. A true pre war/post war transition unimproved I frame.

Because it has a 'notched' pre war barrel, by necessity it also has a prewar ejector knob. This is not uncommon in other frame sizes but unusual in I frames. Even transition Kit Guns have the straight ejector. I'll bet anything that it has the pre war right hand thread as well. All straight post war I frame ejector rods after the war that I've observed already have left hand thread.

The cylinder release thumbpiece, however, is the late post war, third and last style which both immediately preceeded and followed the flatlatches. The early post war style retained the 'double hourglass' shape but without the pre war undercut checkered pad. The 2nd post war style retained the single hourglass shape in front of the screw but not behind it (as clearly shown in Lee's excellent photo of his .32 at the very beginning of this thread).

The stock panels are of the pre war 'service' style with round top shape but with the post war rounded corner checkering border. I can't tell for sure but I believe the grip emblems are the curved, post war style or are they flat silvers?

All in all a great collectible!
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Old 10-27-2010, 01:12 PM
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Jim, thanks for your comments. I completely missed the point about the thumb latch distinctions from the earlier posts. I promise to study the question and not to post about thumb latches again until I understand them!
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Old 10-27-2010, 01:36 PM
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Jim, thanks for your comments. I completely missed the point about the thumb latch distinctions from the earlier posts. I promise to study the question and not to post about thumb latches again until I understand them!
David,
Welcome to 'the club', I can't seem to catch all the nuances any more unless I study a gun for an hour trying to remember what to look for! Very frustrating. Do the grips on your gun have flat silvers or curved emblems?
Thx,
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Old 10-27-2010, 01:48 PM
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They seem to be curved, but this is another case where I haven't trained my eye to distinctions that others can see. I wouldn't call them flat, but they don't seem to be curved as much as on other, older I-frames I have.
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Old 10-27-2010, 07:50 PM
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I'm trying to make them out to be post war curved nickle but they look like silvers to me.

Nickle has a slightly yellow look and very shiny like chrome plate. The silvers look more white and not like chrome.

Oh yeah, I just remembered, they could be plastic! Very little shine to them, almost grey, and they would be curved. Used around the 1951 period also.
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Old 10-27-2010, 09:30 PM
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I'll check further in the morning when I have better natural light and can focus more successfully. They looked more like silver to me when I checked under artificial light a few minutes ago.
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Old 10-29-2010, 07:15 AM
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In better light the medallions look pretty silvery and pretty flat to me.





There's a kind of concentric ring pattern on the surface that shows up in the photo but which I can't see in the real world even with a magnifier.
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Old 10-29-2010, 04:55 PM
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Excellent photos David,
Not to be contrary but I believe those are the post war standard curved, nickle plated brass medallions. The wood surface is curved and the left and right edges of the medallion actually dip below the surface of the wood.
The concentric rings appear to be machine tool marks from cleaning up the surface of the brass casting before nickel plating. I've observed those marks on some of my guns and they are not that uncommon.
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Old 10-29-2010, 06:33 PM
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Excellent photos David,
Not be contrary but I believe those are the post war standard curved, nickle plated brass medallions. The wood surface is curved and the left and right edges of the medallion actually dip below the surface of the wood.
The concentric rings appear to be machine tool marks from cleaning up the surface of the brass casting before nickel plating. I've observed those marks on some of my guns and they are not that uncommon.
Contrariness is welcome, particularly when I am struggling to understnd something for the first time. I still can't make my eyes see some of the medallion distinctions that I hear people draw (though I think I have the early deep-dish medallions pinned down ), so I appreciate the education.

Anyway, it makes sense to me that by 1951 any prewar medallion stocks would have been used up, and stocks would have been fitted with newer ornamentation just as the checking fields were edged with rounded rather than square corners.
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:46 PM
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This is 58470, the gun I alluded to in an earlier post in this thread.





A round butt RP? Yes. As you see in the top photo, it says so on the barrel.

The serial number is, unsurprisingly, in the .38 RP series.
Oh goody.
A chance to argue.

David,
That gun is not an RP- I don't care what that lyin' barrel says.
Seriously, by definition, an RP is a square butt gun. A Terrier is a round butt gun, but always has a 2" barrel. They were numbered in the same series. Obviously, you have a RB with a barrel that says Reg Pol.

This makes about 4 or 5 of these I have heard of.
I wonder how they letter- Terrier or RP?

The factory, as you say, was slow getting small frames back into production, yet they had introduced the new J frame Chiefs Special. Between designing and tooling for the J frame and also concentrating on meeting huge backorders for K and N frames, I think I frame parts production was a low priority. They were digging up any and all parts on hand.

By the time your gun was built, it is possible the factory knew they were going to modernize the I frame with the larger trigger guard and longer grips. 15 months after your gun, we see the Centennials appear in the Oct 1952 catalog, and they had the large trigger guards and long grip frames from the first. We can assume there were many months of design and lead time before that October printing. My point is that they were trying to use up the old parts, and they were trying to fill orders, and both those ideas were working together to clear the way for the total revamp of the small frame line in 53 with large trigger guards and longer grip frames, and straight rods, AND ramp sights.

Wouldn't we love to see that box!
Did it have a Reg Police label, with "Sq Butt" marked out and "Rd Butt" written or rubber stamped?
Did it have a Terrier label with "2 inch" marked out and "4 inch" written or rubber stamped?

I don't really know if that gun is a Terrier or an RP. I don't think it does! It doesn't fit the style of either model. As I say, I wonder how it would letter.
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:19 PM
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I had other guns that I planned to letter first, but since this one is kind of interesting I will move it to the head of the list.

If we can't resolve this with an appeal to Roy and the records, I offer two new categorizations that collectors can choose between:

The Double Terrier
The Semi-Regulation Police

Or maybe:

The Extended Terrier
The Compressed Regulation Police

Check this space in about four-five weeks!

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Old 02-25-2011, 06:50 PM
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It's a really great gun David! I've come to think of my Terrier as one of my favoritest favorites, a 3 1/4 incher would be.... well, just too cool.
Can't wait to see the letter??
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Old 02-25-2011, 06:51 PM
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Oh goody.
A chance to argue.
By the time your gun was built, it is possible the factory knew they were going to modernize the I frame with the larger trigger guard and longer grips. 15 months after your gun, we see the Centennials appear in the Oct 1952 catalog, and they had the large trigger guards and long grip frames from the first. We can assume there were many months of design and lead time before that October printing. My point is that they were trying to use up the old parts, and they were trying to fill orders, and both those ideas were working together to clear the way for the total revamp of the small frame line in 53 with large trigger guards and longer grip frames, and straight rods, AND ramp sights.
Lee,
I think you're scenario about how these came about is logical and believable. The official designation for these hybrids is probably less important than quenching our curiosity about what the factory called them and a letter or 'known' original box seems to be the only sources to ascertain it. Years ago (pre-internet) when the Reg Pol .32s were observed without the barrel marking and it was not generally known that it was standard amongst we novices, we went by the box and/or letter.

One question about your "straight rods" reference above. On the .32s, straight rods were used often before the 1953 changes of longer grip and larger triggerguard were introduced as shown in my post/pics to this thread. Is the change from larger pre war ejector knob to straight rod on the 38s being coincident with the 1953 changes finite? Or are exceptions observed?

Thx,
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Old 02-25-2011, 07:23 PM
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By the time your gun was built, it is possible the factory knew they were going to modernize the I frame with the larger trigger guard and longer grips. 15 months after your gun, we see the Centennials appear in the Oct 1952 catalog, and they had the large trigger guards and long grip frames from the first. We can assume there were many months of design and lead time before that October printing. My point is that they were trying to use up the old parts, and they were trying to fill orders, and both those ideas were working together to clear the way for the total revamp of the small frame line in 53 with large trigger guards and longer grip frames, and straight rods, AND ramp sights.
Somehow that reminds me of host family eating clean-out-the-refrigerator soup on the evening before the hordes arrive for the big extended family dinner that will be cooked the next day.

Still, some of those everything soups could be mighty tasty; my gun has its own peculiar appeal as well.
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Old 02-25-2011, 07:55 PM
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One question about your "straight rods" reference above. On the .32s, straight rods were used often before the 1953 changes of longer grip and larger triggerguard were introduced as shown in my post/pics to this thread. Is the change from larger pre war ejector knob to straight rod on the 38s being coincident with the 1953 changes finite? Or are exceptions observed?

Thx,
I think rods are a part made in huge batches. They require no fitting but a quick and easy length adjustment so that the length matches the center pin. I think a foreman that held up gun assemblies because he ran out of extractor rods would get handed his ___.

Ok, so we gots plenty of big knob rods laying around for all models. We have barrels laying around for all or most models that already have the cuts for large knobs. Nothing to do here but assemble this stuff and make some money!

After the decision and order to make straight rods, no barrels would be cut for large knobs, but let's use up most of the barrels on hand, leaving a decent replacement parts supply for the Service Dept.

I did not mean that straight rods were a clearly delineated change for the 53 modernization of the small frames, but rather the sought for end result. Heck, we see straight rods on Transition K and N frames, AND Transition small frames. Look at the 38 RP I posted above to start all this.
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Old 02-25-2011, 08:17 PM
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I had other guns that I planned to letter first, but since this one is kind of interesting I will move it to the head of the list.

If we can't resolve this with an appeal to Roy and the records, I offer two new categorizations that collectors can choose between:

The Double Terrier
The Semi-Regulation Police

Or maybe:

The Extended Terrier
The Compressed Regulation Police

Check this space in about four-five weeks!

David,
I would recommend sending all the pics with the letter request. I often print pics on regular copy paper and staple them to a letter request. Just big enough to show Roy what I mean.

...and it is either a Terrier Police or a Regulation Terrier.

The way they were dumpng guns out to the major distributors, I won't be surprised if the gun is invoiced with others as "25 I frame 38" and Roy gets to name it.
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Old 02-26-2011, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
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I think rods are a part made in huge batches. They require no fitting but a quick and easy length adjustment so that the length matches the center pin. I think a foreman that held up gun assemblies because he ran out of extractor rods would get handed his ___.

Ok, so we gots plenty of big knob rods laying around for all models. We have barrels laying around for all or most models that already have the cuts for large knobs. Nothing to do here but assemble this stuff and make some money!

After the decision and order to make straight rods, no barrels would be cut for large knobs, but let's use up most of the barrels on hand, leaving a decent replacement parts supply for the Service Dept.

I did not mean that straight rods were a clearly delineated change for the 53 modernization of the small frames, but rather the sought for end result. Heck, we see straight rods on Transition K and N frames, AND Transition small frames. Look at the 38 RP I posted above to start all this.
Naturally.

Also, all large knobs I've ever checked are right hand thread. But all "I" frames with 'straight rods' were left hand thread from the get go, putting them about 10+ years ahead of the K and N frames. One would think the larger calibers suffered more loosened rods than I/J frames.
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Old 02-26-2011, 02:22 AM
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Lee,

I have a 38 Regulation Police exactly like yours. Serial #69010 and it shipped April of 1953. The barrel just says 38 S&W CTG just like yours does. The grips have a different number then the gun. I thought that was funny since the whole package looked to be in great shape and I couldn't figure out why the grips would have a different number. I had the pistols lettered and Roy said in his letter that he wasn't surprised that the grips had a different number, which were more in the 32 RP range. He said it wasn't uncommon to have that with these style grips and that S&W being thrifty would sometimes just put on a pair of grips that were in stock, whether the serial number matched or not.

Here are a few pictures of the pistol:



Trigger guard screw



Coil spring

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Old 04-14-2011, 01:29 PM
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David,
I would recommend sending all the pics with the letter request. I often print pics on regular copy paper and staple them to a letter request. Just big enough to show Roy what I mean.

...and it is either a Terrier Police or a Regulation Terrier.

The way they were dumpng guns out to the major distributors, I won't be surprised if the gun is invoiced with others as "25 I frame 38" and Roy gets to name it.
Preview of coming attractions: I did send in a letter request with photos, but not as quickly as I said I would. I hope to have Roy's verdict within the next couple of weeks.

In the interim, I found another one of these (or rather, Hondo44 found it and tipped me off). The serial number is 54804, it shipped in July of 1951 like other round butt .38 RP's (I'm using that label provisionally, Lee ), and I should be able to post pics tomorrow or the day after.
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Old 04-15-2011, 01:46 AM
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Please post your post-war or (pre-war) Reg Police models. Let's see what kind of variety we get.
Here's mine.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 32 Reg Police Tgt 6572XX.JPG (84.2 KB, 138 views)
File Type: jpg 32 Reg Police 2628XX.JPG (87.5 KB, 150 views)
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:44 AM
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Post war .32 Reg. Police Models - the 4 with square butts.

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Old 04-15-2011, 11:54 AM
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Here are a couple of RP's. The top one is a .32 with sn 286622 and shipped Aug, 12, 1919. The bottom gun is .38 with sn 1898 shipped June 1, 1917 and Roy called it an "Early Production Variation".

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Old 04-15-2011, 07:35 PM
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David, I am continuing to cause shorts in my keyboard drooling over your new acquisition. However, like the perp early in Dirty Harry, "I got's to know..." are you going to take that little sweetheart out and shoot it, or will it be a lonely safe queen? Either way, it's a great find and will no doubt provide a lot of pride of ownership. Congratulations.

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Old 04-15-2011, 10:59 PM
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Default Whatever these are, here's another one...

This is 54804, seemingly of identical configuration to 58470 above. Both shipped in July, 1951.

The issue here, as Lee outlined above, is what to call a round butt I-frame in .38 S&W with a four-inch barrel. The .38 Regulation Police, which has a four-inch barrel marked with the model's name, is a square butt gun built on the company's patented rebated frame. All prewar RPs are built on the rebated frame, and after 1953 rebated frames are again seen in production, as exemplified by Lee's guns in the first post of this thread.

The .38/32 Terrier, built on the unmodified round butt I-frame, has a two-inch barrel.

So this variety of four-inch, round-butt gun actually fits in neither category, though the barrels on such guns clearly say "Regulation Police." We can't get any help from the serial numbers; these anomalies are numbered in the .38 I-frame series with RPs and Terriers.





All parts number together, including the stocks.




This gun is not as nice as the other one I posted above. The stocks look as though they were carried in a box with a bunch of loose chisels for a period of time. The gun has a couple of minor dents and pits; the finish is pretty thin, going to patina here and there.

But the action is sound and precise. There is no push-off. Lock-up is good, with end shake and rotational play within reason. Timing is fine. The chambers and bore are shiny and spotless.

The worst news was that the gun needed a major cleaning. The interior was as dry as the Atacama and covered with fossil oil and carbon residue. Some surface rust could be seen on the frame under the stocks, but it came right off. The gun wasn't fired much, but the ammo that was fired had to have been pretty dirty. I disassembled the lockwork and cleaned all the parts, which greatly improved the feel of the action after it went back together.



In the photo above, note the presence of the improved safety block that company began putting in K-frames in 1945 and in N-frames when they resumed production in 1946. The sideplate is of course channeled for the new safety block, as you can see in the next photo.



This gun makes use of a lot of prewar parts -- most obvious are the barrel and large-knob ejector rod. I suspect the frame is prewar because of the small left-side logo, though it is roll-marked with the four-line address block first seen in 1948. If the sideplate was fitted to the frame before the war, it was reworked to permit installation of the safety block.

There are postwar features in addition to the safety block and four-line address. The stocks have the postwar checking pattern. The trigger/hand assembly makes use of a simple loop spring to tension the hand rather than the pinned rocker seen in prewar trigger assemblies. The thumb release is one of the postwar varieties that Hondo44 has identified. There may be other subtleties of postwar production that I didn't catch. EDITED TO ADD: Also the barrel has not been roll marked with patent dates.

A couple of glamor photos:






Charlie, I will shoot this one. It's a used gun, and there is no reason not to shoot it as long as it is cleaned and stored properly after a range trip. Actually, I might shoot the other one too; It's not a complete NIB package, and there is just enough surface wear to keep it from being a superlative specimen of whatever it will turn out to be.

If I could only find one of these with adjustable sights: a .38 Regulation Police Postwar Transitional Target Revolver! (Or .38/32 Kit Gun.)

As a footnote, 54804 is pretty early in the resumed .38 I-frame production schedule. The dividing line between prewar and postwar construction is usually set at 54475. We often lose sight of the fact that I-frame manufacture was suspended in 1940 and not resumed until about 1950, five years after commercial production of K and N frame revolvers resumed.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:28 AM
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David,
Very interesting early gun for study and shooting. It doesn't have patent dates on top of the barrel does it? As early as the gun is, it has the 3rd and last style thumblatch used before the flat latch and then reintroduced after the demise of the flat latch circa 1966.
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Old 04-16-2011, 02:13 AM
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David,
Very interesting early gun for study and shooting. It doesn't have patent dates on top of the barrel does it? As early as the gun is, it has the 3rd and last style thumblatch used before the flat latch and then reintroduced after the demise of the flat latch circa 1966.
Correct, no patent dates. Another postwar characteristic of a gun with many prewar elements.
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:11 PM
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Default Letter received on 58470

To recapitulate, so everyone doesn't have to read the entire thread to focus on one revolver.

The gun in the photo is 58470, a round-butt I-frame revolver in .38 S&W caliber. The four inch barrel is marked "REGULATION POLICE". The issue is what to call this model, as the Regulation Police by definition had a square butt. Round-butt .38s had short barrels and were called .38/32 Terriers. This gun fits neither category.




The letter just showed up in my mailbox. Despite the definition-busting round butt, the factory called this gun a Regulation Police when they invoiced it.




Interesting that Roy has lettered a prewar round butt .38 RP in addition to the postwar guns that one could explain as output of a program to use up spare parts without having to do additional machine work.

While I was waiting for the letter to come in, I picked up another one of these, 54804; this one shows some use and occasional hard knocks.



This gun too shipped in July 1951.

I'm not sure how many of these there might be. 54804 is the lowest number known to me on a round butt .38 RP, and 58470 is the highest number I know on such a gun. The closest later RPs known to me, like the one Lee posted to start this thread, have the square stocks and rebated frame that are fundamental to the design. The .38/32 Terriers were produced in the same numbering sequence, and there appear to be quite a few of them. Perhaps there are no more than one or two thousand round-butt RPs out there. Or it could be that 5000 to 10000 were made, allowing extra months of production before the 1953 guns began coming out of the factory. In that case, where are they all? I have no evidence other than what I have laid out here, but I more than half suspect that these round-butt RPs are not that numerous and might make an interesting niche collectible.

I had sort of hoped that this was going to be a long-barrel Terrier. It would have been nice to have a gun that could be called by analogy the .38/32 Dachshund.
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:37 PM
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David,

I've been anxiously waiting for Roy's reply too. I guess that clears it up once and for all that the RP designation is according to the barrel length, not the shape of the butt. It also matches observed box label (when existing) markings.
Your pre war lettered round butt RP does seem to discount the "use up available parts" theory for not calling long barrel round butt guns RPs as well. Although I have no doubt that using existing RB frames with long barrels was a case of using available frames, it didn't change the designation of RP for rd butt, long barreled guns.
Who knows, if the RP was stamped on the butt of guns instead of the barrel that it might have gone the other way!
And yes, a 38/32 Dashund or maybe Greyhound!
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:32 PM
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Certainly wouldn't argue with any of you more astute gentlemen about David's Regulation Terrier, or whatever you jokingly call it.

Roy's letter, to me, is the clue as to how the factory looked at it when he said the factory supplied whatever someone ordered. A "Regulation" is no square-butt gun, in the true sense of the word. It is just a round-butt gun cut for the rebated, square-butt shape stocks.

My high school composition teacher used to call this sort of thing "picking of nits" and always implored us to "just say what you mean!" It may be the stock and trade of a true collector, but I think this is what S&W did. Someone made up a bunch of 4-inch guns with the plain round-butt frames and they sold them. That's all.

(Great discussion and pics - thanks.)
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWilson View Post
I had sort of hoped that this was going to be a long-barrel Terrier. It would have been nice to have a gun that could be called by analogy the .38/32 Dachshund.
I love it.

Very interesting, David. I doubt they made very many at all.
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Old 11-03-2011, 11:43 AM
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I believe I might have just acquired one of those Regulation Police in .38 S&W with a Round Butt and a 4" barrel.
Of course, I might be wrong, in fact I'm not really sure what I've got.
I'll be sending Roy a Letter request after I've had a chance to clean it up and get some decent pictures, but here are a couple quick and dirty snapshots.

Serial# 13511 on frontstrap, cylinder, barrel and penciled inside right grip.





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Old 11-03-2011, 11:53 AM
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Oops. I think I might have screwed up. Mine has a Rabated Frame.
It has a round butt profile, but has the rabate.
Sorry.
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Old 11-03-2011, 12:05 PM
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Oops. I think I might have screwed up. Mine has a Rabated Frame.
It has a round butt profile, but has the rabate.
Sorry.
No problem. It's hard to talk about these because, rebated or not, the grip frame still has a rounded shape. It's the stocks that justify the square butt designation on the Regulation Police revolvers, not the frame (as is the case in the medium and large-frame guns until recent decades).

Just to make this more amusing, after the war small frame guns were built on round butt and square butt frames -- but despite the nominal distinction, to the eye they look like round butt and slightly less round butt frames.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:23 PM
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This seemed like the thread to post this in, it looks like knowledge I need might just happen to be in the heads of you guys.

Sorry for quality of the photographs, I'm still learning how to use the camera and I find I get a lot of suggestions (I need to use photoshop to make my black blacker or something, also I need canned air, etc.)

I picked this up on Saturday. I was, and continue to be, delighted in the gun. When I looked it up in the Standard Catalog I came up with it being a model 1953 Kit Gun. There is a problem however. Here are some pictures of it, you can click on them to get very large versions.










So here is the problem:



The grips are J-Frame. I have 2 other sets of J-Frame diamond grips that I tried on the gun and they are exactly the same.



The thing that is strange to me is that these grips are un-numbered.

After poking around online I finally arrived at this thread, which leads me to wonder if what I have here is not actually a J-Frame gun, but in fact an I-Frame improved? Do I have something strange here?

Last edited by Modified; 12-10-2012 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:39 PM
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Nice example. You identified the gun correctly -- .22/32 Kit Gun, Model of 1953. You can also call it a Pre-34, because this model became known as the Model 34 when S&W went to a model numbering system in the 1957-58 time frame.

Because of its relatively low serial number, this one probably shipped in 1954. (But the caution is that S&W did not follow a policy of shipping in serial number order, so the gun might have stayed on the vault shelf for several months or even a year.)

Yes, it is an improved I-frame.

Lots of good shooting in that one!
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:01 PM
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If you are talking about the grip overhang, it is just normal variation. That IS the long grip frame of the last version of the I frame.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:17 PM
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Should the grips have been numbered to the gun? Is it possible that these are not the grips it shipped with?
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:29 PM
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Should the grips have been numbered to the gun? Is it possible that these are not the grips it shipped with?
yes- right grip should be numbered.
yes, quite probable they are not original.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:59 PM
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yes- right grip should be numbered.
yes, quite probable they are not original.
Thanks, I seem to have a knack for buying S&Ws that need very rare grips. Or at least I would guess that improved I frame grips are hard to come by?

I hope they aren't as hard as the Registered Magnum Magnas I have been after for over a year now.
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