A couple of weekends ago at a nice little, high quality show I ran across what appeared to be a 95+% 2nd Model HE (sn 747xx). The only thing is that there were no caliber markings on the gun. When questioned, the seller said "Oh, it's a .45 Colt that went to Canada". There were no Canadian marks on the gun and the cylinder had not been altered so I checked with Roy. He replied that it "has possibilities" and "it was a commercial gun that wasn't sold to the Canadian Gov't"..."I'd have gotten it".

There was enough intrigue there for me so I bought it (for what I would have paid for the same gun in .44 or .455) and took possession this past weekend. The gun is very nice with gold medallion grips that don't appear to have ever been moved. They have the serial number penciled in the right grip. Six .45 Colt rounds drop into place "like it was made for them." Got a letter off in the mail today so we will see if there is any record of it.

All the books say that there were 724 of the 2nd Models made in .45 Colt. There have to be some ledgers somewhere that give information that is that specific. I know of one other in a collection and I would be interested in knowing of anyone else who might have them.

Bob

Sounds like a neat one, hope the letter proves all! Oh, by the way where are the picture's? Keep us updated.

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Stay safe people!

Bob,Do the numbers match on the barrel ,cylinder,frame?I would like some pictures also.

Sorry, no pictures. But just look at any 6.5" 2nd Model and, without a set of calipers to measure the charge holes, you couldn't tell it from this one. And yes, all the numbers on the frame, cylinder, barrel and grips match.

Bob

Bob,

Congratulations on a great find. I hope Roy can dig up more info for you in the Letter. cant wait to see it in Tulsa next month?

Dan

FWIW, severa; years ago I came across a 2nd model hand ejector in 45colt. I had read in a S&W book that 724 of these revolvers were shipped to Canada for the RCMP. I got very excited and sent off for a letter on mine. It has Canadian proof marks on it. It is, however, a .455 that was converted to 45colt and sold back in this country after WW1. The 724 that went to the RCMP were not separated by serial number and were a random group of pistols made in 1915-1916 IIRC.

Thanks Tom. As I mentioned, this gun was a commercial sale and doesn't have any Canadian markings so I don't think this is one of the RCMP guns. It was sold in 1917 and is within less than a dozen guns of the ending serial number range.

Bob

Bob,

You can about bet that yours is one of the 724. I've had two in the 74XXX range and both lettered in .45 Colt. No proofs, no markings to indicate one way or the other, but both were right. Also,if you have a
.455 to compare, measure the front sight height with a micrometer - the blade on an original .45 Colt is taller by a bit than a .455.

Way to go...

David

I read somewhere that s&w did not like the name colt on the side of there early pistols barrels.Is this true?

I would love to run across one of those! Congratulations on such a fine acquisition.

In regard to not wanting to have the "Colt" name on a S&W:
I think it would be fair to say that S&W and Colt have had quite a rivalry over the years. I know that Colt would make their own version of a cartridge so they did not have to write "Smith & Wesson" on their barrels. One example of this is when S&W came out with the .38 S&W Special Cartridge. Colt created their own version of the round and named it the ".38 Colt Special".

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You're shy a few manners.

Yep, it's not uncommon for a manufacturer to be reluctant to assist in the marketing of a competitor's product. A modern example is the absence of the ".357 Sig" marking on the slide of the Glock .357.

Bob

The letter is back and, in fact, it is a Factory original .45 Colt. The factory manufactured 700 of the 2nd Model in .45 Colt between April and June 1917.

This gun was shipped on May 4 to Phelps Dodge Co. and it turns out that they were an American Mining Company that dated back to 1834. They were involved in a large mining strike back in July 1917 where 1300 miners were deported from Bisbee, Arizona. I've begun to do a bit of research on the Bisbee AZ deportation and it is a very interesting period. The event was one of the starting points of the organized labor movements. There is a tie to WWI as part of the emotion behind the vigilante strike breaker's action was the thought the strikers might be German sympathizers. It even impacted the war in Europe because of the effect on the price and availability of copper for ammunition. There are also distinct similarities between the feelings of the Mexican workers there in 1917 and the current illegal immigration problems in modern Arizona.

Bob

Excellent news! Always good to have confirmation of a probability.

And it's nice to know that the turnaround time on letters is is now about three weeks.

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David Wilson

Bob, congrats on the news. So what you have is technically a .455 Mark II Hand Ejector 2nd Model in 45 colt caliber, is that correct? At first I was confused thinking this was a 44 HE 2nd model that was in 45 colt. I know there were some 44 HE's in other calibers. Maybe this was already stated but how is the barrel marked, or is it? It's interesting how late your serial number is as I would assume that this model was produced around the same time as the 44 HE's without the ejector rods and thus find themselves in the same serial range. But according to the standard catalog that is not the case, do you have an idea why that would be? Anyway, it sounds like a great find and I hope you will post some pics for us here or in the albums.

Daniel,

You are correct in your identification. In his letter, Roy calls it a "Smith & Wesson .455 Hand Ejector Second Model, Special Commercial Production, caliber .45 Colt".

The only markings on the gun are SMITH & WESSON on the left side of the barrel and the patent information on the top of the barrel. There is no caliber identification at all. Other than the serial number, there are no logos or any other identifying marks on the barrel or on the frame.

Re: photos. I just got a new DSLR camera yesterday so as soon as I can find the On-Off switch I'll try to get some pictures.

Bob

Great news.Your money x 2.

Glad to hear it lettered. Looking forward to the pictures...

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You're shy a few manners.

Bob, why do you think there is that gap between these 455 2nd models and the 44 special 2nd models? The 455 sn's are in a higher range then the 44 specials. With both having the unshrouded ejector rods I would assume their frames are the same and would have been produced around the same time. Maybe the war production caused the gap?

Daniel,

Here is my understanding, based on the writings and comments of Roy and others. I hope that anyone who can expand on or correct my thoughts will chime in.

There are two completely separate serial number ranges involved which are confusing.

The 1st Model (Triple Lock) in .44 S&W began with serial number 1 in 1907 and went up to 15,375 at the end of its production in 1915. The 2nd Model .44's picked up where the TL '44.s left off (with # 15376) and went up into the 59000 range when they were discontinued in 1940.

Before the Triple Lock (1st Model) series ended, the British government placed an order for .455 Mark II guns in 1914. To get immediate production, they allowed the Factory to ship the first 5600 of the .455 caliber revolvers in the frame/barrel configuration of the Triple Lock during the 1914-1915 time period. These 5600 guns began with serial number 1 in a different serial range than the .44 caliber Triple Lock guns.

When the Triple Lock production ((both calibers) ended in 1915, the British contract continued with what we now call the .455 Mark II 2nd Model. These guns picked up the serial number where the .455 Triple Locks left off and continued on through serial number 74755 in 1917. There were 69,755 of the .455 cal. guns made in the 2nd Model configuration.

You will note that my gun (74744) is only 11 guns before the end of the serial number range of the 2nd Model .455 guns. Roy mentioned in his letter that during the last three months of production (April-June) the Factory produced 700 units recorded in the books as .45 Colts. During that time frame they shipped 703 guns. He surmised that the extra 3 units may have been manufactured from revolvers that they had already assembled.

Bob

Bob, thanks for the explanation. It is still a little tough to wrap my mind around it with all the changes and series that overlapped. But it is a little clearer, thanks.

Bob,

I am stoked to hear the gun lettered. I remember talking to you the morning that you were mid-negotiation on it - you sounded pretty upbeat about it. From your description it sounded like it might be righteous with what little I knew about these rare beasts, now I can't wait to see the pictures.

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Non illegitimae carborundum

Finally got the new Nikon D3100 fired up. So here is a first cut with it. My apologies to John Marshall and all the other "real" photographers who have given me pointers. It immediately became evident to me that there are three variables in a good photograph...the photographic equipment, the subject, and the operator. Nothing wrong with the first two here...gotta use these as a baseline to try to improve the third one.

Bob

Okay!
Stupid question here.
What is the hole or circular mark under the cylinder release latch?
On some of my Smith's that mark is prevalent and on others you can't see it at all.

It's the hammer stud. They were screwed into the guns. With tolerances on the stud itself and on the frame, sometimes they are below or above the surface of the frame very slightly.

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S&WCA 1729

Thank You Sir.