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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #51  
Old 03-21-2012, 03:36 PM
Scary Gary Scary Gary is offline
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I got it because it was .45 Long Colt.
I'm not that concerned with it shooting ACP.
Thank you for the information.
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  #52  
Old 03-21-2012, 05:17 PM
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Just a reminder. There is no .45 Long Colt. It's only .45 Colt. Or it's .45 S&W which is a similar but shorter round as used in the Schofield. And that's not a .45 Short Colt either.
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:33 PM
Scary Gary Scary Gary is offline
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Then why have I been saying .45 Long Colt all these years?
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  #54  
Old 03-21-2012, 09:44 PM
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Then why have I been saying .45 Long Colt all these years?
I don't know. I think some gun writer or writers started calling it that perhaps in the 1960s or 70s, and it just caught on, to the extent that the last few generations commonly call it the "Long" Colt. Serious cartridge collectors cringe at that term. It would be interesting if someone went back through the old gun magazines to establish when and where that started.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
I don't know. I think some gun writer or writers started calling it that perhaps in the 1960s or 70s, and it just caught on, to the extent that the last few generations commonly call it the "Long" Colt. Serious cartridge collectors cringe at that term. It would be interesting if someone went back through the old gun magazines to establish when and where that started.

Certainly before Elmer Keith, who explained that there was a short Colt. He may have meant the Schofield.
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  #56  
Old 03-22-2012, 02:32 AM
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I cringe at the sound or sight of 45 Long Colt but here's the history of the term:

Shortly after the Army procured S&W Schofields revolvers, the 1st time a supply depot accidentally shipped 45 Colt ammo to a unit issued the 45 S&W Schofield revolvers (needing the shorter S&W round), the Army figured out it had a multiple ammunition problem! Coincidentally troops were complaining about the recoil of the original Colt 40gr load of blackpowder and resulting poor marksmanship.

Soon the original 40 gr load was reduced to 28 grs. Then government arsenals established the 45 S&W round as standard (the short Colt referred to by Keith) since it would chamber in both the 45 Colt SAA and S&W revolvers.

However, since the 45 Colt cartridge inventory was not depleted for some time, those troopers that appreciated the superior performance of the 45 Colt round specifically requested the longer round, the long Colt round.
And there you have it; it was a description, never an official designation.

The rest of the story:
Since both revolvers were popular on the frontier the distinguishing description continued to be used whenever ammunition was purchased. SAA users wanted the 45 Colt rounds. As is the case with most misnomers, the damn term stuck. So much so that ammunition in 45 Colt caliber was actually marked 45 LC on packaging boxes and is to this day by some manufacturers. I have none by Remington or Winchester in my inventory, however.

I'm not buying it as a correct term however, merely a misnomer or physical description only with a small 'L'.
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  #57  
Old 03-22-2012, 02:40 PM
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My box of Bitterroot Valley 200 Grain Cowboy Action Round Flat Point Ammunition that I picked up at the gunshow on Saturday says .45 LC on the box.
I've been calling it .45 Long Colt ever sense I bout my first Ruger Vaquero about 20 years ago.
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  #58  
Old 04-01-2014, 11:05 PM
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Bump for a very cool and informative old thread.

Thanks to all who have contributed here.

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  #59  
Old 04-02-2014, 01:33 AM
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At one time, I had an empty baloon head case. It was nickel plated, had no extracter groove, was schofield length with a very small rim. The headstamp said .45Colt. Keith said in Sixguns, these rnds were quite inferior to the longer Colt rnds with 40gr of black powder.
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  #60  
Old 04-02-2014, 01:33 PM
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There were, to my knowledge, NO Model 1917 Army's chambered in .45 Colt.

There are at least 6, if not 8, known & lettered Mod. 1917 Commercial's chambered in .45 Colt. I've owned and sold at least 4 of these over the years, including the one-known nickle example. A couple of the known 6-8 have been in auction catalogs 3 times in the last 6-7 years. We just recently sold one of these, s/n 180XXX, originally shipped to a sheriff's sergeant in Southern California in 1938, to one of our clients who is a long-time SWCA member.

Whether Military or Commercial, this model was called by the factory, " The Model 1917", until the last Pre-war 'long action' types (Transition models) were built in 1949. Its successor was the 'short action' Model 1950, .45 Military, aka: Pre-Model 22, Model 22, Model 22-2.

No M-1917's were mfd. in .44/40, as far as we know.


David


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Originally Posted by Oyeboteb View Post

Excerpted:

There were no Model 1917 Revolvers, as such, chambered in .45 Colt or .44-40, since all were in .45 ACP.

There were some so-called Model 1917 Commercial Revolvers, chambered in .45 Colt, ( which makes zero sense to me, since to be a M1917 it would have to have had the larger Head Space for the Moon Clipped .45 ACP, soi what then makes one of these a Model 1917? Would it be the Serial Numbering range?) but are there any known in .44-40?


Do I have it right? Am I close? Or..?

Thanks!
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  #61  
Old 04-02-2014, 02:16 PM
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There were 22 Heavy Duties made in .45 Colt at last count.
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Old 04-02-2014, 05:46 PM
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Yes, there were a number of 1917 S&Ws chambered in .45 colt.

A couple of years ago, I asked Hamilton Bowen to make me a replica 1917 from a Ruger Redhawk that could handle heavy loads, something to handle dangerous game. He suggested .50 AE, because they would load in a moon clip like .45 ACP. I asked about .45 Colt (at 1325 fps) and he told me, yeah, that's a good idea because there were a bunch of commercial 1917s chambered in .45 Colt, so it would be authentic in spirit.

If I remember, I will post a picture of Bowen's work.

MDR
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  #63  
Old 04-03-2014, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ddixie884 View Post
At one time, I had an empty baloon head case. It was nickel plated, had no extracter groove, was schofield length with a very small rim. The headstamp said .45Colt. Keith said in Sixguns, these rnds were quite inferior to the longer Colt rnds with 40gr of black powder.
Correct, Keith was not referring to the .45 Schofield as someone speculated above. They were only loaded by Remington UMC (that's a clue as to how long ago) and had the standard rim size of the longer .45 Colt, not the wide rim of the Schofield which is the "dead giveaway".

Another confused cartridge was the short .45 Frankford loaded only for the 1906 Military trials for a requested new military .45 DA Revolver. S&W designed the cartridge as the .45 S&W Special and chambered prototype TLs for it that were tested in the trails.

It was all for naught when the Army turned to the .45 ACP in the 1911 Browning semi auto and the rest is history. Any .45 Frankford/.45 S&W Spl cartridges have long since been shot up in .45 Colt chambered revolvers or disappeared into collections.
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  #64  
Old 04-03-2014, 08:51 AM
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"Correct, Keith was not referring to the .45 Schofield as someone speculated above. They were only loaded by Remington UMC (that's a clue as to how long ago) and had the standard rim size of the longer .45 Colt, not the wide rim of the Schofield which is the "dead giveaway"."

The .45 Colt and the shorter .45 Schofield cartridges have, within manufacturing tolerances, the same rim size. I have measured quite a few of them, and found only a few thousandths of an inch differences. I'd suspect that the great majority of Schofield cartridges were loaded at Frankford Arsenal for Army use. Most every civilian shooter would have used .45 Colt cartridges, unless he had a Schofield revolver. Indeed, the .45 Smith & Wesson (aka .45 Schofield) cartridge was loaded by UMC, and later Remington. It was last listed in the 1937 Remington ammunition catalog.

The .45 round with the oversized rim diameter was the Army's short-lived ".45 Caliber Ball Cartridge, Model of 1909," made for the Colt New Service Model 1909 revolver. It was loaded only at Frankford Arsenal. There's always been debate as to why it had a larger rim, but the official reason given was for more positive extraction from the Colt Model 1909 revolver. However, the .45 Colt and .45 Schofield cartridges will also work OK in the M1909 revolver.

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Old 04-03-2014, 06:03 PM
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The balloon head Schofield rim of the day was not a great deal larger than the balloon head short and long Colt round of the same period, but it was .018" larger +/- .003" due to manuf. tolerances when measuring the balloon head 45 Colt, 45 short Colt and balloon head Schofield rounds in my collection, clearly not the same and enough to make a difference. Also enough to require different shell holders in most brands of reloading tools when I reload them.

The headstamps of the Remington short 45 Colt and the 45 Schofield were always different to delineate their lack interchangeability in S&W revolvers. Also, recognize that the Remington “short” 45 Colt round is not a Remington version of the 45 Schofield because it has a thick rim like the 45 Colt and will not chamber in S&W Schofield revolvers.

Actually the difference between modern solid head 45 Colt rims and modern solid head Schofield rims is less at a measured difference of .010" +/- . The solid head 45 Colt having evolved to a larger rim.

Yes, the ".45 Caliber Ball Cartridge, Model of 1909," was the other cartridge specifically designed with a larger rim similar to the Schofield for more reliable extraction in DA revolvers.
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  #66  
Old 04-03-2014, 08:45 PM
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Just to put some numbers on .45 rim diameters, I checked information in Hackley, Woodin, and Scranton’s book on U. S. military cartridges. They provide no dimensional information on the early inside-primed .45 Colt and .45 Schofield cartridges. The first reloadable Boxer-primed copper cased .45 Schofield round (the M1882) had a 0.524” nominal diameter rim. Due to manufacturing tolerances, there was apparently some difficulty experienced in rim interference in the Colt SAA revolver. Therefore, in 1887 the rim diameter was ordered to be reduced to 0.513” nominal (0.510”-0.516” tolerance). And there it stayed. The final rim diameter of the M1909 cartridge was 0.536” nominal. The current .45 Colt has a rim diameter of 0.512”

Last edited by DWalt; 04-03-2014 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 04-03-2014, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
Just to put some numbers on .45 rim diameters, I checked information in Hackley, Woodin, and Scranton’s book on U. S. military cartridges. They provide no dimensional information on the early inside-primed .45 Colt and .45 Schofield cartridges. The first reloadable Boxer-primed copper cased .45 Schofield round (the M1882) had a 0.524” nominal diameter rim. Due to manufacturing tolerances, there was apparently some difficulty experienced in rim interference in the Colt SAA revolver. Therefore, in 1887 the rim diameter was ordered to be reduced to 0.513” nominal (0.510”-0.516” tolerance). And there it stayed. The final rim diameter of the M1909 cartridge was 0.536” nominal. The current .45 Colt has a rim diameter of 0.512”
DWalt, I appreciate all of your research.

Respectfully though, you're mixing time periods. Also I learned a long time ago the books are fine as far as they go. But they often don't match the actual product result, as in this case.

Schofield actual average dimensions from several samples using a Starret mic and checking with a vernier caliper:

.5215" - external primed copper case arsenal head stamped 1887 (2 different boxes), reduced, yes, but still .016" wider than 45 Colt of the same era and later.
.518" - brass case balloon heads commercial UMC & REM-UMC
.518" - Current solid head cases

45 Colt actual averages:

.504" - internal primed copper case
.504" - copper external primed
.504" - brass balloon heads, several brands checked
.510" to 5.012" late balloon heads and current solid head brass depending on brand, several brands

45 Colt short REM-UMC:

.5065" - brass balloon heads (the only style made to my knowledge)

Therefore my point remains that the Schofield has a larger rim (and thinner rim) than the Colt cartridges and the wide rimmed 1909 45 Colt was not the 1st nor the only extra wide 45 cartridge as dimensionally shown above and in my 1st post on this.

As you may sense, I've had this discussion before. But we can agree to disagree if you prefer, and I apologize to OP, Scary Gary, for further hijacking his thread if this is not of his interest.
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  #68  
Old 04-03-2014, 10:58 PM
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Over 5 inches?
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  #69  
Old 01-26-2017, 03:01 PM
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I have been reading the different threads and I think I have one of those 700 revolvers that were sent to canada a from the S&W factory my 152xx sn#s match up on the frame cylinder and barrel the crane has a different # 9571 and that matches to a # on the frame where the crane rest on the frame and I have a C with a arrow head on the left side of the frame With canadian proofs on the back of the cylinder in between each chamer covering up the sn# I dont know how to send a picture and I am having problems with the computer I have already sent a thread describing this revolver earlier would love to have a more definite conclusion if possible thank you
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Old 01-26-2017, 04:44 PM
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gary tree,

Welcome to the forum.

What cartridge is your revolver chambered for and what's the barrel length?

I don't think you have a 1917. You likely have a 455 Mk II hand Ejector - 2nd Model.

The # in the yoke that you see is an assembly #. It's third location is the inside of the side plate.

See below for the locations of the matching serial # including the yoke:

Serial # locations: To confirm all parts are original, check for your 6 matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956.
NOTE: Observing serial #s for accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!

1. Gun butt - or forestrap on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt

2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star - backside

5. Cylinder - rear face

6. Right stock only - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material. (except most target grips because individual fitting not required.)
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