Is there such a thing as a S&W 1917 commercial in .45 Long Colt ?
If so what can you tell me about them?
I may have found one, or not.
MY 11 year old boy and I are going to check it out again.
They are asking $500.00 or so for it.
any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

I don't know of any 1917s that were manufactured in .45 Colt, but I suppose one could have been converted. Speculation only: don't put any weight on my ignorance and guesses.

A possibility to consider is that this is a .455 HE, Second Model that was converted from .455 Mark II to .45 Colt after the war. I have one of these.

You should be able to tell them apart by the barrel length. A .455 would have a 6.5" barrel, a 1917 5.5". Also the .455 is likelier than not to have British proof marks all over it.

For those who don't know why I am proposing this, the 1917 and the .455/Second both have unshrouded ejector rods. At a glance they look similar; an unwary seller may have misidentified what he is offering.

__________________
David Wilson

Oh well !
It's gone.

Too bad it's gone. Shows that any N-Frame S&W at $500 is probably a good deal, original or not. (Assuming of course it is in good working order and doesn't have that "dragged behind a truck" look). If it was a factory .45 Colt S&W, ... well, you are probably better off not to know what a deal you just missed out on. Better to tell yourself it was a hack-gunsmith conversion that would actually have been dangerous to shoot.

Mr. DCWilson, if you are an example of ignorance on this forum, I (by comparison) should just leave right now and hope I could say something useful on the Cap Gun Forum.

__________________
They lack our altruism.

I had one. I simply bought a brand new clyinder in .455, a extra crane, and my gunsmith reamed the clyinder to .45 colt, fit it up with the extra crane and I had a true 45 acp/ 45 colt convertable. He also did other work on it like adding S&W target sights, made a colt trooper type ramp, beavertailed the hammer, I added S&W target grips. Like a fool I traded it for other fine guns back to the friend I got the original gun from. This was around 1970. When my smith got through with it, it looked like the factory had done it! I doubt the gun and entire job cost me $300s in those days!

Hi:
I had a Model 1917 that a previous owner had a .45colt cylinder installed and then had it nickeled plated. The cylinder might have been a .455 converted to .45 colt. Loaded .45 colt cases with a .452 bullet. shot fine.
Jimmy

There are one or two 1917s in 45 Colt that have been lettered as correct. I believe both of them sold for over $10,000. I once owned a Second Model Hand .455 Ejector that is chambered in 45 Colt and has a 3 3/4-inch barrel. It was made for Mr. Herreshoff, a friend of the Wesson family, in 1916. The gun lettered as being correct. Below is an old photo I took of the revolver.

The "very special" revolvers are out there, but seldom seen or heard of. Sometimes they are displayed at the NRA Annual meeting or the annual meeting of the S&WCA.

Bill

Okay now I'm sick .
I seen it on Thursday and thought about it. Last night I decided to get it. So today my boy and I went there and it was gone.
the gun store did confirm that it was in .45 long colt.
Would've , could've , should've.
I'm going to get a drink now.

I also have one of the "1917s in 0.45 Colt" that on inspection before I purchased it turned out to be a reamed and cut 0.455 Mk II. Alongside my 0.455 Mk II all dimensions matched except for the gap in the rear of the cylinder where it had been cut for either 0.45 ACP in moon clips or 0.45 Colt. I cheat and use 255 grain 0.45 colt bullets that my local bullet caster sizes to 0.454 for me in 0.45 AR cases. A real tack drive at 10 yds even though it is closing in on its 100th birthday. Dave_n

Chances are good that you did not miss that much.

Do you recall if the gun had the normal LARGE cyl gap at rear like a normal 1917 for moon clips? If so, the gun shipped in 45 ACP. The known guns shipped in 45 Colt had longer cylinders that show a normal, thinner gap.

I know two are known, and it sticks in my mind that 3 are.
One of the known guns also lettered as Nickel!

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Bill,
Do you recall how the front sight base was attached?
Was it actually forged on the barrel?

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Mr. Jarrett
I don't recall. I stopped buy on Thursday I think. I was working and the Co. I work for is really anti gun. So stopping off at a gun shop could be considered a bad thing by some management. So I was not in there long. I'm new to the S&W collecting thing so I don't always know what I'm looking at. But what I did notice was that it looked to me to be a 1917 in .45 long colt. I Love the .45 long colt and the for sale sign said. S&W 1917 .45 long colt. When I looked at it I think I seen that it said .45
long on the barrel . I asked if this was the same as .45 long colt and I was told that yes it was. It looked like a older gun. It looked like it had what I thought was coke bottle grips with the diamond . I'm guessing the finish was 85 95 % . There were no military markings on it so I asked if it was a commercial gun and they said yes. This looked to me and sounded to me like a commercial S&W 1917 in .45 long colt. The more I thought about it the more I liked it. When I got home I tried to look it up in my Standard Catalog Of Smith & Wesson and could not find it. So I thought well I'll go back and take a look and if it looks factor authentic I'd get it and then try and pin point what it is. Well I went back and it was gone.
My life story.
A day late and a $ short.

Don't beat yourself up too badly. Anyone in this game has done something similar. We all regrett the one that got away. Its part of how we learn about our hobby. It sharpens our target aquisition system. Notice how thick the SCSW has become, there is a lot to learn and this forum is one of the best tools available.

Lee...the ramp base was either forged with the barrel or attached in another manner. I know it was not pinned to the barrel. I looked at a larger printed photo I have and could not see any seam between the barrel and the ramp base.

Jim Fisher would be able to tell you.

Bill

Was it a rare factory original, maybe but doubtful. Gunshop owners don’t stay in business if they don’t know one gun from another. If it will make you feel any better I had one like that. It was the British .45 reamed out to take a .45 Colt. It looked exactly like a 1917 but would take the 45 Colt cartridge. I had always wanted an S&W in .45 Colt but the thing was so inaccurate I traded it off. You may not have been happy with it for $500. It would take a new barrel and perhaps a new cylinder plus the cost of a gunsmith to fit it out. You probably would have been money ahead to buy a new Model 22-4.

Hope this helps.

Bill

Or ten times worse...

__________________
They lack our altruism.

I figure if I was always successful in getting every gun I ever wanted there would no longer be a challenge in it. I still get to keep looking for one. So I got that going for me.

It's been a wile but I found another one.
Only this one is a .455 converted to .45 Long Colt.
It doesn't have any U.S. markings on it but it does have a lanyard ring.
They want $550.00 for it.

.455 in 45 colt sold this winter at auction in Knightston Indiana for a cool thousand. Someone around this forum probably knows where it went. The owner told me it was a special order, claimed to be the second owner. It was pretty sweet.

Hi Lee / Bill
We will have to take a good look at the 455 Target at the annual meeting. I can not see any gap under the front sight boss.
it was made in the tool room in 1916 at the request of Joe Wesson for his friend Hereshoff. So your guess is as good as mine. When you are the President of the company you can get anything made you want.
In my display at the annual meeting this year there will be 4 more original 45 colt revolvers that letter as 45 colts.
Jim Fisher

Jim
Is the nickel .455/45 colt that sold in indiana going to be displayed? If so what kind of grips will it get. I seem to recall it was rather poorly adorned.
Thanks, Pete

As far as I understand it, there would not have been any Model of 1917 S&W Revolvers factory Chambered for .45 Colt.


Though there were some very few 2nd Model Hand Ejectors which were factory Chambered in .45 Colt, just as there were some chambered in .44 WCF - .44-40.

There was a very nice one in fact, a 2nd Model HE in .44-40 a few months back on Gunbroker, and, I was delighted just to see one even if only in images. It actually sold pretty reasonable, all things considered.

Unless attending an S&W Collector's Show, few to any of us will ever see either.

The 2nd Model Hand Ejectors which were originally chambered in the .455 Eley for use by Commonwealth Countries in the 1914 - 1918 War, those are what one encounters now chambering .45 Colt, for their having been modifed to do so. And, sometimes, often really, their Barrels have been re-Stamped to say "45" instead of .455...usually by obliterating the last '5', but any sort of over-stamping is possible.

The possibility of encountering an original factory 2nd Model HE in .45 Colt would have to be truely astronomical in any context other than that of an S&W Collector's Show.

If there were a Commercial 1917 .45 Colt Ctg. it might look like this 1917 commercial revolver chambered in .45 Colt Ctg.

__________________
Bill Bates

HI
All the 45 Colt chambered revolvers that I have seen and that I own were as follows.
1. Triple lock 45 colt Blue 6 1/2 shipped 1910 23 made. I own this one
2. 455 2nd model 6 1/2 blue fixed sight one of 15 made in 1916. I own
this one
3. 455 2nd model 3 3/4 inch Target made in 1916 one made I own
this one
4. I have not seen any 2nd models in 45 colt.
5. I have not seen any 3rd models in 45 colt.
6. Heavy duty 38/44 chambered in 45 colt 12 made in 1937-38 for
sherriffs dept in Calf. I own one in 5 inch blue 98% all original
7. There was one Commerical 1917 in 45 Colt Nickel finish owned by
a Texas ranger.
8. There was one Pre 22 45 colt made in 1953 with a extra 45 acp
It letters that way with the original box 98 % I own this one.
9. There was one run of 200 made in the Pre Model 26 in 45 colt I own
one of these.
10. there were some 455 2nd models made for Canada in 45 Colt we
don't know how many but a couple of members of the fourm have
one of these.
I hope this helps a little
Jim Fisher

Because the second model could be ordered in 45, we probably don't know how many were made.

Sasha Siemel stated repeatedly in his jungle books that he and many others in Brazil favored S&W .44 revolvers. But he didn't identify the models, or the exact .44 cartridge. He owned a Winchester .44-40 carbine and was friendly with Dan Wesson. Might his gun have been in .44-40? The ammo was probably more available in Brazil then, as the Winchester M-92 was so popular there. Rossi still makes a good copy of it.
I doubt that .44 Spcl. was as available.

But how many .44-40 S&W's do we KNOW about today? The same may apply to .45 Colt chamberings. But I think that most wanting a .45 Colt bought a New Service. S&W listed the .45 on order, but probably discouraged such orders. And the New Service handled recoil better than an S&W, prior to the Magna grips.

Thanks for taking the time to do that Jim I don't see the knightston gun on that list.

Re: The .455 Mark II HE.

At the very end of production of the .455 Mark II (Between April and June 1917) the Factory manufactured and shipped 703 Special Commercial Production Second Models in .45 Colt caliber. Unfortunately, the manufacturing records do not record the serial numbers of those guns. Revolver #7474x shipped on May 4, 1917 and is one of those guns. It is a 6.5", .45 Colt and there is no indication of any caliber marked on the gun.

I believe that Jim Fisher also has one of these. There are approximately 700 more out there so don't be too quick to assume that a .45 Colt 2nd Model that you find is a converted .455. Check it closely for any indications of modification by either the Factory or a private gunsmith and if you don't see any such indications, check with Roy! The odds of it being an original Factory .45 Colt would be roughly 1%.

Bob

P.S. This gun shipped to a US Mining Company.

The one I saw this winter had no caliber marking.

hi
the no calber markings is one way to tell but there is another thing to look for but you have to have a mic with you. If you measure a original 455 front sight height and measure a 45 colt front sight there is a few thousand difference in the height. I would have to go measure mine to tell you how much but there is a difference. I think its like 15 or 20 thousands.
Jim Fisher

If S&W did indeed ship some .45 Colt-chambered guns that had no caliber marking, why? Did they hate that much to put Colt on their barrels? Could have just marked them as .45 LC. It seems as if there'd be liability issues with not marking the caliber, even then.

And they sent out about 700 of these?!

How did they mark .44 WCF guns?

Hey Beagleye, I was at that auction. Thats where i bought my 66-3 in 3". There we're 95 handguns in the auction and 2/3rds
of them we're Smiths. I did'nt have alot to spend as it was
right before Christmas. I still have the auction listing with all guns in the sale with serial numbers and prices realized.
The sale was held in the "Hoosier Gym" where they made the movie Hoosiers. I also played my 6th grade basketball in that gym and went to grade school right there. This was of course way before they filmed parts of the movie there.


chuck

__________________
They hold no Quarter

SPEECHLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

__________________
Go big or stay home

Without a written record, I think we are left to our own devices when we speculate why or why not the Factory did something.

Regarding the 2nd Model .45 Colt I can only tell you what Roy said in his letter:

"Between April and June 1917 Smith & Wesson manufactured 700 units of this model that are listed in the manufacturing records as .45 Colt caliber. Unfortunately, the manufacture records do not record serial numbers. The shipping records for this model list in this same time period the sale of 703 units, but the shipping records do not list the caliber. I am positive that the sale of these 703 units are the .45 Colt listed in the manufacturing records. The extra 3 units could have been manufactured from revolvers that had already been assembled."

The date of Roy's letter quoted above is November 2010 so the information supersedes any printed records that I know of.

This is an interesting gun and I hope to get around to writing an article about it for the SWCA Journal.

Bob

Bob-

Thanks. So, no known reason produces speculation? I guess that's a good summary.

I was hoping that there was some record. Thanks for the post above about some .45 Colt guns going to a US mining company.

So I picked it up.
S/N 59040
It has crossed flags on the frame and cylinder.
on the right side of the frame forward of the trigger guard is stamped 4MD with 13 under the 4MD .
Under the S&W logo is stamped in tiny numbers is 2280 .
And on the barrel it says Smith & Wesson .455. .
Any information on this would be very much appreciated.
Sorry no pictures.

About time, Gary! With that info, it's clear that you have a .455 made for the Commonwealth about 1915-17, and some served with RAF and reserve units until after WW II.

If you see a "C" stamp with an arrowhead (Broad Arrow Crown property mark) inside, it indicates the gun went to Canada. Without that mark, it probably went to the UK.

Just get it checked by a gunsmith and be sure that the caliber wasn't altered for sale here.

I got it from a reputable gunsmith who said it had been made to shoot .45 Long Colt and that it should shoot the standard .45 LC just fine.
Now if it will shoot .45 LC will it shoot .45 ACP in moon clips?

Most likely not. Think of the different headspace dimensions.

And those cylinders weren't heat treated and are thin at the bolt cuts.Don't exceed standard .45 Colt factory pressures, if that, if you handload. I'd limit velocities to 800 FPS or less, but a 250 grain Keith bullet at that speed is deadly at average gunfight ranges. It packs more punch than GI .45acp bullets.

Gary,

The "Reputable Gunsmith" wasn't completely accurate in his statement. Your gun was "MADE to shoot the .455 Eley. It was MODIFIED to shoot the .45 Colt". Just be sure that the modification was properly made.

Bob

That's exactly what the gunsmith said.
He said who ever modified it to shoot .45 Long Colt did a good job and that it should shoot standard .45 Long Colt just fine.
I worded it make instead of modified . I reread it I seen that I didn't make my point well.
Sorry.

I removed the grips and found another stamp.
Left side, upper right corner under the 1950's diamond grips is stamped an arrow pointing up with crown under that, and the number 44 under that with an E under that, with what looks like II under that.
Any idea what that stamp means?

That was a great auction and a cool gym. Does the auction listing give the serial number for the Nickle N frame. I seem to recall the description was pretty vague but it would be interesting to compare the number to the others mentioned here. I was there for that gun, left empty handed, it went to an internet buyer. In hind sight I wish I had gone after the 2 38-44s that both went for under 6. Not as rare but just as awesome.

Also if possible post a link to that gun.

Thanks, Pete

We've all done it! Over the years I've just convinced myself, it wasn't meant to be and I didn't get that one, because something better is coming. And, you know what? It usually does! Happy Hunting, they're still out there!!

So yesterday I pick up a box of Cowboy Action Shooting .45 Long Colt .
And today we shot it. I got about a 3 inch group at 25 feet. I think the gun can shoot better then I can. With the 200 Grain lead Rounded Flat Point Cowboy Action rounds it was an absolute joy to shoot.
We just love this gun.

Here is what I believe to be a factory conversion of a 1917 Commercial from 45 ACP to 45 Colt Target. Based on the longer cylinder and reduced headspace I am convinced the cylinder was replaced and is numbered to the frame. The barrel was also replaced and numbered to the frame with a diamond (replacement) symbol added.

The star on the butt and the 7.49 stamp on the left side of the grip frame suggests this conversion was made around the time the factory was exploring the introduction of a target 45. More speculation on my part is the conversion of the rib-less 1917 barrel to target . . . with its awkward high front sight . . . didn’t pass muster and the result was the completely redesigned Model of 1950.

I’d love to know who commissioned this conversion. My guess is a serious competitive target shooter . . . but that’s only speculation. If enough of us support the efforts of the Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation in their endeavor to digitize the factory records (including work orders) . . . one day we’ll know.

I’ve included a few pictures but many more detailed ones are available on request.









Russ

Wow Russ, that's a beauty for sure. Thanks.


Cat

__________________
Think for yourself.

Wow...thanks bettis1 for this clearifcation.


So...there is Hope afterall, that someday...I might find one!



If I have it straight then or do I? - there were some New Century aka 'Triple Locks' in .45 Colt, and, in .44-40.

There were some .455 Series Serial Numberings in the erstwhile 2nd Model Hand Ejector Line, which were in .45 Colt...but none in .44-40.

There were no Model 1917 Revolvers, as such, chambered in .45 Colt or .44-40, since all were in .45 ACP.

There were some so-called Model 1917 Commercial Revolvers, chambered in .45 Colt, ( which makes zero sense to me, since to be a M1917 it would have to have had the larger Head Space for the Moon Clipped .45 ACP, soi what then makes one of these a Model 1917? Would it be the Serial Numbering range?) but are there any known in .44-40?

There were some 2nd Model Hand Ejectors proper, which were in .44-40...and, some which were in .45 Colt.


Am I leaving anything out?

Do I have it right? Am I close? Or..?

Thanks!

hi
you are close there have been no 45 colts seen or lettered in the
2nd model numbered series 17xxx to 36xxx.
There were 12 or 13 45 colts made in the heavy duty series. in 1937 and 1938 for a sherriff dept in cal. the factory charged $ 1.00 extra to make them as a special order.
Jim Fisher

And there may be special orders for some guns we just don't lnow about. Nothing is absolute in S&W's.


BTW, if you read the late Elmer Keith's, "
Sixguns", you'll find an account by a Canadian who used his Triple Lock .455 to kill three Germans in a shell hole one night.
Many of those guns saw use in battle.

Scary Gary,

There is a very safe, inexpensive and simple way to be able to shoot 45 ACP with moon clips only and 45 Auto Rim AND 45 Colt in your re-chambered 455. Your gunsmith can make the modification in about 10 minutes.

The problem is the lack of headspace for moon clips or AR rim thickness.

The solution is to have the rear face of the cylinder turned in a lathe to increase the headspace about .050" if I recall. Your gunsmith will know. Your 45 Colts will headspace on the case mouth (if chamber lengths are correct for 45 Colt) instead of the case rim. They will stick out sufficiently (the same amount that ACPs stick out for the clips) for reliable ignition. You can cold blue the rear face of the cylinder.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819