This is obviously an early N-frame in nickel. Timing is perfect. Bore is perfect. Action is smooth. Lock up is excellent. It is chambered in .44spc. It appears to have been drilled for a lanyard loop and filled in. Lanyard loop appears to have been factory. All numbers matching. S/N 1680X
Any information would be appreciated.

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"Vus ken men tin?" -Irving

Sir, that's a .44 Hand Ejector, Second Model. The stocks are aftermarket, but the nickel looks like it could be factory. If it is, that would probably affect the price.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

hi
the finish is not orginal the pins are polished flat and the edges are rounded.
my guess is it was a blued gun that was nickeled.
it a shooter grade gun with out a closer look I would say some where between 500 and 650.
jim

No, sir. The lettering is clear and sharp. No evidence of refinish. This is a factory nickel gun.

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"Vus ken men tin?" -Irving

My assessment is the same as Jim's: it looks like a refinished shooter. At first glance, I thought it was a chrome job. However, I will take your word that it looks better in person than in the photos. Regardless of how good it looks or the fact that the hammer, trigger, and ejector star are not plated, I would caution against assuming that it wears it's original finish. Of course, getting a letter would go a long way toward verifying either position.

As a shooter, it is a $500-$600 gun. Original finish? Add a couple hundred dollars, so $700-$800. I would not go higher. If the seller balks at getting a letter, I would try to "split the difference" at around $700. Nothing wrong with paying more if you want it badly. I am just not in the market for a 2nd Model that would require time, effort, and money for finding decent stocks. Speaking of: original stocks...which it does not have...make all the difference in terms of value. Add maybe 50%. So a nice, not exceptional, original condition 2nd Model is a $1,000-$1,200 gun tops.

The simple fact is that the 2nd Models are not nearly as hard to find or desirable as the 3rd Models. A similar 3rd Model could bring twice as much or more.

As I've said, I've certainly seen refinished guns. This isn't one of them.

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"Vus ken men tin?" -Irving

It seems that you may not want to hear that it is refinished, but here's another vote for refinish.

In your pic of the rear face of the cylinder, the rebound slide pin has been polished and looks almost totaly flat.

It should be well rounded, not like the one in the pic.

Like this one-

i dont care whether it is or not.
Bu I do know a refinish job when I see it. And the letters and numbers are way too sharp and clear all over the gun for that.

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"Vus ken men tin?" -Irving

Just trying to answer your question.
Does the lettering and numbers on this gun looked refinished?

Hard to tell from your pics.
When a gun is refinished the lettering looks faded, shallow, and with the cartouche sometimes pulled to one direction and distorted slightly.
That isn't the case with this gun, even the small lettering on top of the barrel giving patent dates.

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"Vus ken men tin?" -Irving

Does it look nice and clear like this one?

The only way to give a fair value for your gun, is to know if it is refinished or not. That's all we are trying to do.

Definitely a refinish.
It is possible to lightly polish a gun without leaving the usual horrible signs of a refinish.

It has a swivel hole, and originally shipped with one, because almost all early 44-2nd's were built on leftover 1917 frames. Look inside the yoke cut, and you will most likely see a Springfield eagle head Inspector's mark.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

there are certain people here on the forum that I would trust anything they say, Jim is one of them, the pictures you have posted are poor for trying to give an opinion. I have had some very nice guns that are refinished and the telltale signs I went right by before buying them. It has been a rough learning curve but one we all must go through. On the grip frame next to the grip pin there appears to be a small letter "B" if so that indicates that the gun was a blued gun when it left the factory.

Dan

I would like to add that the barrel may not be original. For a gun in the 16000 serial number range, the head of the ejector rod should be mushroom shaped. The barrel type were later on the Second Models, I believe.

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S&WCA 1729

I may be in error here but I also believe that over buffing is not as necessary when going from blue to nickel as it is when going from pitted anything to blue or nickel.

There are also shops out there that will recut all of the lettering and logos for a price.

No one here is trying to put down your gun, but you did ask for opinions.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Gee, Jim. I'd been told that with all your expertise, you could spot
a refinish. Judging by this new expert, your reputation is somewhat
tarnished. And the rebound-spring-retaining stud being flat - well,
I'm sure he'll offer some explanation for that. Maybe it was a new
design for the stud.

Mike Priwer

Are you are trying to sell yourself on the gun? If you like it that's all that matters.But I would listen to all points of view,and post a few more detailed photos.

Are there numbers stamped on the left side of the frame under the grip. It looks like 133 or something like a date.

I think it is a refinish also. If I were a potential buyer I'd definitely presume that this one is. $500 - $600 would be my guess at a value also.

Do you have something constructive to offer here?

I have something the rest of you don't have: the actual gun. I also have a Smith factory-trained gunsmith who has looked at it and is pretty sure it is not a refinish.

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"Vus ken men tin?" -Irving

Let's move on. That's constructive.
f.t.

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South Carolina-God's country

You asked, after all. And I like refinished guns. Many of them still look real good and shoot even better since they actually get shot. I have been thining about collecting them. I thought I saw some numbers stamped on the frame under the grips which could be a sign of some sort of work. The factory often stamped the month and year when they did work.

Here's a pic of 44 he 2nd that has been factory refinished. Same rebound slide pin buffed to flat as the frame and 3 digit number stamped on the frame.

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100_1691.jpg (115.4 KB, 371 views)

I got a pretty good look see at this gun, all numbers match, and when I saw the pic of the top of the barrel on page 2, I thought it was this gun. All lettering is sharp and has shadows.

I was frankly amazed at the smoothness of the action, the perfect timing, and lack of play between the bolt and cylinder. This gun has a very low round count

I would sell it as probably being original, with the possibility of a factory nickel job. Better pics, and a closer examination might help. It would seem hard to justify a former owner paying the expense of re stamping the gun given the circumstances surrounding it.

This may not be a gun for the difficult to please collector, but will likely not be priced as such. The time and expense of getting it lettered is not cost effective for most guns.

Turning it quickly and making a fair profit without sacrificing ethics is the way I would go.

Are you referring to the pic I posted above with the nickel gun?

This is also a very valid point. Is there a diamond or other mark with the barrel number?

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I suspect that most of the obviously refinished lettering that is seen is the result of Bubba and his polishing wheel. Quality restoration does not necessarily mean poor treatment of lettering. I have seen quite a few restored guns for which the lettering was perfect. If fact, everything was perfect. Unless you saw the rework marks or knew its history, you would swear it was original finish.

Not getting a factory letter that could make the difference of 50% in the price of a gun is a good example of Buck's Second Law:

Never ask a question if you really don't want to hear the answer.

In retrospect, that law probably should have been applied to this thread.

Judging a refinish is the sum total of all the tests you can apply to a gun. If it passes 10 of them and fails one - it still fails. This gun has at least two negative indicators.

• The rebound stud end has been polished flat. At least the left side of the gun has had metal removed.
• The gun has a rework number (date) stamped on the butt. It has been back to the factory for some kind of work.

I personally believe that the gun has had a factory re-nickel. The original finish won't be known without the factory letter.


Buck

gentlemen, i have a 2nd model h/e .44 spl. which is well worn. appears to be original nickle. it does have an "n" stamped on the grip frame left side. might be something to look into ? i have a very knowledgeable smith collector that says it correct. for what it's worth. thanks.

These are fun threads because almost everyone learns something. Not so sure I'd trust Lee or Jim...they only handle a couple of guns a year!

I've been lookin' at guns for my entire adult life (but probably not as long so far as the above two worthies!!! ) I get fooled all the time. David Carroll had a story a while back about having a gun he knew for a fact had been refinished. He handed it to Roy and had it pronounced original.

The points the earlier posters have brought out should be taken as a free education (unless its your gun they're talking about, then it might be expensive). One of the lessons has already been pointed out. Refinish jobs run the gamut from terrible to almost impossible to pick out. This one is an easy one to spot. Well done, but pretty obvious. I'd even venture a guess the guy paying the tab got his money's worth, and that not knowing how much he paid.

For those of you bent on faking, remember to replace the rebound slide pin!

I feel some sympathy for the OP here. He, like a lot of us, has put their faith in a trusted gunsmith. The problem here is he came to the big leagues with a question. The list of posters to this thread are pretty impressive and everyone has come to an identical conclusion. I don't want this jury voting against me!

Its also been pointed out the gun is an odd configuration. We have an unusual barrel (though not unheard of) for a 2nd model in the serial range. And we have a plugged lanyard hole. Looks like evidence of some gunsmithing work in the past.

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Dick Burg

Thanks.
Someone who actually knows something points out this is a "44 military" model. After WWI Smith had a bunch of N frames made for the Model 1917. These were remade in the 1920s or so in different calibers, including .44spc, as this one is.
I would find it odd that whoever polished the gun ground down the pin but left the cartouche intact. I am sure one of the "experts" here can explain this.
I am done with this thread.

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"Vus ken men tin?" -Irving

Great thread for those of us here to learn and cheap education too.

To try to put a positive spin on this thread I'd like to mention the jigged bone grips. They appear to be very nice and have probably been on the gun for some time. Grips of that style were frequently found on guns from the southwest and are quite collectible in and of themselves. (Given the choice of the gun or the grips, I'd walk away with the grips.)

Bob

I had a friend years ago that invented a wonderfully funny and ironic saying-
"Let me tell you a question....."

Next time you tell us a question, please just tell us what to answer, and we'll save lots of time.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

What you say about the model is almost correct. After 1950 this model became known as the Model 1950 .44 Military. When it was manufactured, ca. 1916, this designation did not exist. So much for your "Someone who actually knows something".

There are re-finished guns and there are re-finished guns, work done by a hack, and work done by someone who knows whet they are doing. This is re-finished, and most likely by Smith & Wesson in March 1931 at which time the barrel was replaced. The 331 on the grip frame is a date code applied at the factory when it was returned for work. As the Nickel is over the stamping, not stamped after plating, it is re-finished. The flat rebound slide pin is an indication of a factory re-finish, why they did this I really don't know, but I have seen others. The flat plug in the butt is another indication of factory work as this would have been either a lanyard loop or a domed plug. If a loop it would have been removed, if the domed plug these were polished flat as they are in a blind hole, tight, and cannot be removed once installed.

Other indications of a factory re-finish are the still color case-hardened and not plated hammer and trigger, as well as the blue extractor. That is how S&W does it, just like the original finish. Look on the barrel flat, bet there is a 5-point open star stamp, as well as the serial number appearing to be hand stamped.

Originally S&W guns are polished after all stamps and roll marks are applied. Don't you thing they are able to re-polish a gun without damaging the markings? The same people who did the polishing on new guns also did the re-finish polishing, with the same equipment. Why do you suppose it is impossible to re-polish without it being obvious?

If you didn't think there were people on this forum that knew what they were talking about then why did you go to the trouble to join, just to start an argument? Your original question was posed as "What can you tell me about my gun?" When you were told you want to argue, what is the sense in that. If your mind was already made up why did you ask any question at all?

Let me summarize what has been said by me and others. What you have is a Second Model .44 Hand Ejector. The frame is a left-over Model 1917 frame manufactured in ca. 1916 based on the serial number. Based on other markings, and the ejector rod head and ejector cut in the barrel, it was apparently, with at least a 98% certainty, re-finished and re-barreled in March 1931 by Smith & Wesson. Believe it or not, that is your prerogative, but it is true.

I have a couple of older friends that I shoot with, whom you remind me of.

When they ask me a question about a gun, my answer is always correct....... as long it is the one they wanted to hear.

funny but true

This is a somewhat interesting and very informative thread.

Rabbi;
I'm thinking you don't want the expert opinion of those qualified to give it.
Why then, did you ask?
No disrespect intended, but your mind is made up.

I have to disagree with a lot you say here.

"What you say about the model is almost correct. After 1950 this model became known as the Model 1950 .44 Military. When it was manufactured, ca. 1916, this designation did not exist."
Actually, S&W catalogged the 44's as the "44 Military" from day one, starting with the Triple Lock in the 07-08 catalog and continuing thru all or most catalogs.
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"The flat plug in the butt is another indication of factory work as this would have been either a lanyard loop or a domed plug. If a loop it would have been removed, if the domed plug these were polished flat as they are in a blind hole, tight, and cannot be removed once installed."
The only positively plugged swivel holes I am aware of is on post WW II 38 M&P (Victory) frames. It MAY have been done on one or two 1917's heavily modified- like with target sights.
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"Other indications of a factory re-finish are the still color case-hardened and not plated hammer and trigger, as well as the blue extractor."
I've seen a lot of after-market jobs that did not plate the parts that shouldn't be.
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"Originally S&W guns are polished after all stamps and roll marks are applied."
That is fairly safe to say for pre-war guns, but seldom true from the WW II production onward. Look at the raised logos on Transition guns and post-war 5 screw guns.
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"The frame is a left-over Model 1917 frame manufactured in ca. 1916 based on the serial number."
I agree that is a leftover 1917 frame, but no 1917 frames existed before 1917.
So, the gun is not from 1916. I have a 1916 44-2nd Model- one of the earliest made, and it is in the 14,600 range. There are Triple Locks with higher numbers. Not many 44-2nds got out before 1919-1920. The factory was buried by war production from Aug, 1914 Thru Sept, 1916 (455's). The Second Model was first produced in Jan, 1915, but the British 455's occupied most factory production till late 1916. Then, they began looking at 1917 production, and by late 1917, they were totally focused on 1917 production. The Gov't thought they were still too slow, and seized the factory in Sept, 1918. They did not return control till Jan, 1919, and it seems S&W was very slow in 1919 about getting back to civilian production.
The point of all this is to say that you won't see many N frames that were produced from later 1914 thru much of 1919 EXCEPT for 455's and 1917's.
I believe the OP's gun will have a ship date of 1920 or possibly 1919.
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After WW I, the factory built many 44-2nd's on leftover 1917 frames. If you think about it, there was nothing else to build. The 455 contracts were long since done, and the 1917 contracts were done. Before the war nothing but 44 Sp's had been built in any quantity. After the war, they added the 1917 to the catalog, but they were lousy sellers, probably because SURPLUS 1917's were available- CHEAP.
So, we have noted for years that most 44-2nd's from the 20's have a butt swivel, and often show an eagle head in the yoke cut. I have never seen a 44-2nd with what I thought was a factory plugged swivel hole- they had PLENTY of leftover swivels to plug them with!

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lots of answers, many wrong. I had this gun in my hand. If the barrel was replaced, why would it be stamped with the same serial no as the frame and cylinder?

I will say the pics leave a lot to be desired. I do not have a horse in this race, but will say that several knowledgeable folks, including myself, do not believe the (entire) gun was reworked. The stamping on the barrel behind the front sight is flawless and deep. The serial no on the barrel and cylinder is flawless and deep. Even the Smith logo on the frame is flawless and deep.

It IS possible the gun was restamped at the factory. If so, it was perfectly done. Contrary to local opinion, I was not around then.

The "Pontiffs" can pontificate all they want. How so many "positive" conclusions were made, considering the pixel count of these photos defies logic.

All in all, a very interesting, very shootable gun in perfect mechanical condition, which will doubtless be worth more than it will sell for.

Very informative thread. I regret that there were occasional eruptions of sarcasm or irritation on both sides of the question, because my sense is that everybody here wanted to get a correct answer. The problem to my eyes is that the gun showed something for everybody -- a mix of high-impact, low-impact and no-impact polishing before it was renickeled (or in the case of the barrel, probably nickeled for the first time) in 1931.

The only footnote I would add to the conversation is a possibility I did not see mentioned. I agree that the left side of the frame was polished down quite a bit, which is why the head of the rebound spring pin went flat. But I think the crisp logo on that side of the gun may be a restrike. If the gun was at the factory for work, and if the shallow original logo was completely polished off when deep pitting and scratching were addressed, how difficult would it have been for the gunsmith to take a logo punch off the shelf and replace what had been removed before the gun went into the plating tank?

And finally, thinking about this as a collector, I have to say there is a world of difference between a 1931 refinish and a more recent refinish. An old refinish is part of a gun's long and respected history. I have a 1911 TL that got a factory refinish in the mid-1920s. In light of its subsequent honorable treatment and careful maintenance, I don't think that return trip to the factory hurt its collector value nearly as much as a return in the '60s or '70s might have.

I have read other threads to which The Rabbi contributed. He's a bright guy with a lot of knowledge, and I learned some good stuff from a thread he was in on a different forum. I am not about to impute motives to him or let myself believe that I know what he really wanted to hear when he asked about this gun. He happened to luck into a revolver whose features could be variously interpreted, and they were. It's his call if he wants to sell it -- but whether he does or not, it remains an interesting revolver in its own right.

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David Wilson

The barrel would be stamped because the factory numbered replacement barrels and cyl's in the pre-war era.

The serial number indicates production around 1920.
The gun wears an ejector rod that was not put on 2nd Models till 1927 and the barrel has the proper cut for that rod.
So, we are looking at a very early 20's gun with a late 20's type rod and barrel. Doesn't that indicate something a bit odd?

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Here's why.... Once upon a time, when the factory replaced a barrel, they numbered the barrel to the frame. Sometimes, but not always, there was a diamond stamped on the barrel flat as well to signify a replaced part.

As has been mentioned, the 'knob' on the ejector rod isn't the correct style for a non-shrouded barrel of that vintage. That style of knob wasn't seen on 2nd Models until after the arrival of the Model of 1926; aka: 3rd Model .44.

Mark

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S&W Forum Member #721

The markings weren't restamped, in my opin. The logo was not applied with a punch struck with a hammer. It was applied with a roll die. So, remarking it would be a very tricky business.
The small, rounded end of the rebound stud is easily flattened some in buffing. New guns were buffed without that stud in place. Obviously, they did not always remove it to refinish a gun. Just because the end of that pin is a little flattened we don't have to assume the logo would be ground off- the pin is a small surface that was the highest point on that side. It was easily flattened when the buffer hit it.

As DC said, if the barrel is a new replacement, it had never been buffed before, so I would expect the markings to be clear.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

In support of the renumbering of replacement barrels, I will report that I recently acquired a .22/32 revolver that was originally shipped in 1921 with a six-inch barrel, which was the only length available. It now has both a four inch barrel and a recessed cylinder, neither of which was available at the time of original shipping. Barrel and cylinder are both numbered with the frame number of the gun, and the frame is stamped with a star and 11.46 factory rework date.

The conclusion? An original .22/32 HFT target was factory modified to the specs of a prewar Kit Gun, and the new parts were numbered to the existing and unmodified frame. I know the barrel is not simply a shortened original barrel because (1) roll markings are centered, and (2) the ejector rod knob cutout is for the 1930s-profile knob, not the earlier one.

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David Wilson

(3) ....not to mention the FORGED front sight base on the newer, SHORTER barrel.....

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Here are pics of the proper ejector rod with the proper two step barrel cut and the round headed pins.

Note also that early trigger studs were round headed. The factory polished them flat BEFORE they started polishing rebound studs. The round headed trigger stud could sometimes mark the cyl.

edited to fix a stupid mistake

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Yes, that too.

On the left-side logo question for the OP's revolver: I stand corrected on the hammer-and-stamp remarking, but would it have been difficult to put the frame in the proper cradle and rollmark it again?

I wouldn't think this is something anybody at the factory would try unless an earlier logo had been completely removed.

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David Wilson

Lee,
you are saying hammer stud here, but you are actually talking about the trigger stud aren't you, since you mentioned it hitting the cylinder? I just want to get all this great info/facts straight while learning here.

Excellent response.......conpletely saves this thread IMHO.
Well done DCWilson, hat's off to you Sir.

"N-frame but what is it? What's it worth?
This is obviously an early N-frame in nickel. Timing is perfect. Bore is perfect. Action is smooth. Lock up is excellent. It is chambered in .44spc. It appears to have been drilled for a lanyard loop and filled in. Lanyard loop appears to have been factory. All numbers matching. S/N 1680X
Any information would be appreciated. "


David,

I believe that it is admirable for you take stand for the OP with your well spoken and thoughtful words, in a thread that may appear to have the "pile on" mentality, but- as noted by a direct copy of the original post above, he did ask What's it worth and, stated that any information would be appreciated.

I believe that, that is all anyone is trying to do here, not only for the OP, but also for anyone who is following along, so that all may gain knowlege from this thread.

It is almost impossible to give an opinion on value for the gun without first clearing up its status as original or re-finished.

some excellent information in this thread

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO