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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 01-12-2011, 11:37 PM
MrSurly MrSurly is offline
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Thumbs up A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One?

Hi folks. Hoping to find a little info on what I believe to be a "real" Bekeart and looking for input.

I have a few SW handguns but not any collectibles. When I found this I ran to the web and the web brought me to this wonderful place! Lots of info!

This piece seems to be in excellent mechanical condition lacking only in the cosmetics. It looks like a gun that was handled a lot but fired very little. I picture a young boy twirling this thing endlessly instead of doing his homework or chores! The rifling is excellent, as are the timing and lock up. All numbers match with the serial #207998 appearing on the grip frame, the grips (in pencil) barrel flat, cylinder, and the backside of the star. In addition, the sideplate,frame and crane have #3267 on them.
The grip has 2117 stamped in the bottom.

My questions are: is it 1 of 3000? Does it appear legit? I don't know what qualifies as a real Bekeart...is this one?
(apologies for the pic quality) The bluing on the frame is flaked or worn, not sure the reason for that but there's no rust or pitting or damage. The bluing on the barrel is flawless. What would a quality reblue of the frame do to the value?

Anyone have an idea on value as-is?

If pics do not appear its because I'm still trying to figure the method for posting...please bear with me(!)
Thanks in advance!













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Old 01-12-2011, 11:59 PM
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Hi
here,s the information on the Bekeart models they were only 292 that were shipped to Phil Beleart. all the guns were shipped in 1911 and were in the serial number range of 130xxx. these are the only real Bekeart models.
the grip numbers do not mean that a gun is a bekeart model.
all the ones that were shipped after the 292. went to various places.
and they were call 22/32 heavy target models.
thats what your gun is and it was shipped in the late 1918 to 1920.
I hope this helps.
Jim Fisher
Here is a picture of a one of 292 first shippment to Bekeart.
and the real box.
the Grip number is #274 Serial Number of gun Is 138539 and it shipped to Phil Bekeart.








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Old 01-13-2011, 12:00 AM
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Welcome to the Forum, if I am the first to say that.

It has one of the first 3000 sets of stocks made, but with the SN I believe they are too early for the gun. The .22/32 model SNs started in the 138000 range, so the last of the numbered stocks should have been on a gun no later than the early 140000 range. If you look carefully on the inside panels with angled light you may see a SN in pencil, which would be from the gun that had the stocks originally.

It is, in any case, a Bekeart type or model, but not one of the earliest 292 guns actually shipped to his shop in 1911. Rebluing would cut its value by 50% or more, so personally I would leave it alone. Hope this is helpful.
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:26 AM
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As said above, your .22/32 Heavy Frame Target is not a "true" Bekeart, in that it was not shipped to Phil Bekeart in San Francisco in 1911. It was one of 490 guns shipped to M.W.Robinson, NYC., in Jan. 1914. Over the years someone has added grips from the 3000 numbered pairs. I would not advise a refinish, as the gun's value will be decresed somewhat, plus the cost of quality refinish can exceed the refinished gun's value. Current value is not high, as these guns are not that scarce. I would estimate it at $600-$750 range, depending on location. Ed.

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Old 01-13-2011, 05:05 AM
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I don't mean to rain on your parade, but the reason the barrel is so nice is because it's been replaced. The barrel and ejector knob are clearly post war. Check Jim's gun above and notice the large ejector knob and notch under the barrel to accomodate it compared to yours. Does your barrel have patent dates on the top surface? The picture is not clear enough for me to see. Post war barrels do not.

Because it's serial numbered to your gun usually indicates it was replaced at the factory. However I don't think so because:

1. it should have a small diamond stamped by the number,
2. it should have a star stamped behind the grip frame number and,
3. it should have a 3 or 4 digit date stamped on the left side of the grip frame.

But it is an early gun as evidenced by the non-recessed chambers, it's in great condition, and a fine piece to shoot and or just enjoy. I would definitely not have refinised; it will never look as good as it does now unless you spend more than it's worth; about $450 to $500 IMHO.
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Old 01-13-2011, 09:55 AM
MrSurly MrSurly is offline
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Facts don't rain on my parade, I've got thick skin and I came here for the straight skinny. Real information doesn't bother me in the least and I didn't arrive here with delusions about the piece being one that Bekeart personally handled.

What does bug me a bit is skimming.
Maybe my pictures didn't show for you guys? I dont know, but please re-read my original post? Please look at the first picture again?
from the text:"serial #207998 appearing on the grip frame, the grips (in pencil) barrel flat, cylinder,"
The picture (at least on my monitor) clearly shows the penciled serial number and the 2117 stamped in the bottom.

It would seem that the position some of you are taking is either
1. you didn't notice the text or the picture, OR
2. you are saying the grips are a fraud.
Please clarify.

3. I wanted to know the meaning of "true Bekeart"; the answer is 'only those that were shipped to Bekeart'.
Thats exactly what I wanted to know, it doesn't trouble my parade at all, guys.

4. the follow-on question is what is the significance of the 2708 guns that were specially numbered? Hardly seems likely that the value of a numbered series is nil, but I don't know.

5. The confusion (if thats what it is) over the grips and the gun being #2117 of 3000 appears to mainly be rooted in an idea that all serial numbers are serial and the extension that the first 3000 set had to be manufactured in a contiguous run starting at 138xxx therefore ending at 141xxx.
I have some question as whether that is known fact, or merely assumption. My recollection is that somewhere I read that the numbering of these was shared with the 32s and they are not all-in-a-set because of this.

6. is it established fact that all 3000 shipped in 1911?

Please dont take my questions as taking offense, fellas, I'm only looking for facts; ! just need for them to all mesh with each other if possible.

7. I am curious about the barrel as well as it looks remarkably nice. Included in my first post is a pic that (might need to zoom it) shows the serial number, looking hand-stamped, AND a B and a B-in-a-diamond. does that clear anything up? I can't find a star or a rework date anywhere on the frame, thats why I have the 'naked' pics.

8. I noticed the difference in the two-step barrel but I don't know when the production change occurred.

Thanks!
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
6. is it established fact that all 3000 shipped in 1911?
I don't think it is and I disagree that the first 3000 grips / guns should be no later than SN 140XXX.

Quote:
It has one of the first 3000 sets of stocks made, but with the SN I believe they are too early for the gun. The .22/32 model SNs started in the 138000 range, so the last of the numbered stocks should have been on a gun no later than the early 140000 range.
Per the SCSW 3rd, the 22/32s were made in specific SN ranges which were a smaller PART of the SN range / production for the 32 heavy frame target revolvers. The first 292 are a lower SN (after the first 292, there was a distinct SN break before the second run), but my Bekeart is a 263XXX IIRC and it has the 1 of 3000 numbered grips. In other words, there were multiple runs, so it would depend on how many were made of each run and in what SN range each run was in before you can say "well the cutoff for the numbered grips is...XYZ" I will take off mine tonite to make sure they number to my gun.

Also, to clear up the confusion about what consitutes a true bekeart, it generally refers to the first 292 which were shipped to Bekeart BUT since he sold his so fast, its obvious that later 22/32s were shipped to Bekeart as well which IMO would also constitute "true" Bekeart status, just not first 22/32 shipment status.
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:55 AM
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hi
I will try and help you a little. yes the b in a diamond indicates rework to the gun.
the 3000 grips were not all shipped on guns in a continous
production.
most of the numbered grips I have seen on guns were used between 13xxxx and the high 16xxxx range.
I have another 22/32 that has grips numbered in the high 2xxx range and it is in the 168xxx range.
the penciled numbers on your grips are to dark and to large conpared to others I have seen. I think the grips are not orginal to the gun.
I hope this helps.
it is still a nice example of a 22/33 target.
but does not have a high collector Value.
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Old 01-13-2011, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
I will try and help you a little. yes the b in a diamond indicates rework to the gun.
the 3000 grips were not all shipped on guns in a continous
production.
most of the numbered grips I have seen on guns were used between 13xxxx and the high 16xxxx range.
Come to think of it, I think my gun is a 163XXX not 263XXX. This would explain why I'm 95% sure that they're original grips on mine despite the 263XXX SN that I posted. It was simply the wrong SN. I will check it out later.
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Old 01-13-2011, 11:26 AM
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hi
I looked up my other 22/32 it is serial number 164xxx and the grip number is 1869.
just more information.
jim
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Old 01-13-2011, 11:41 AM
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Don't want to hijack this thread but have always wondered about how my gun relates to the Bekeart story, if at all. The S/N is 1632XX and the stamp on the grip is 1181. Have no reason to believe it is anything but origonal. Any relavant status information regarding this guy would be most appreciated.

Thanks all
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Old 01-13-2011, 11:43 AM
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Besides the pencil being a little dark, I'm not sure I have ever seen the serial number in pencil on the left grip panel. Just to be sure i pulled the grips from three other revolver of the same vintage. All had their serial numbers on the right panel.

Of course with Smiths never say never always applies and none of these revolvers were .22 or the same models as the OPs.
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:22 PM
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hi
The S/N is 1632XX and the stamp on the grip is 1181. Have no reason to believe it is anything but origonal. Any relavant status information regarding this guy would be most appreciated.

Your gun is in the right range to be in the second shippment of these guns. but only a factory letter will tell were it shipped.
The first shippment to bekeart were 292 guns. the only guns that I have seen that letter in the first shippment are in the 13XXXX range. But like I said
only a factory letter will tell you.
jim
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:12 PM
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Default Bekaert?

I've owned #164122 with 1858 stamped on the grip bottom for over 40 years. It is a very early gun 1912-1913 but not one of the first 273? or so shipped to San Francisco. Your grips may or may not be correct,as stated this number did not follow production serial #'s for this model only. Later models have silver medallions and later still none at all. Some more research is in order. Perhaps you could do some trading for the correct grips and make someone very happy with your grips. Early, numbered on bottom grips, are extremely hard to find and can bring $250 and up easily if nice. I haven't seen any ratty ones to turn down as well. Great shooter with low speed ammo only. Hope this helps.

All the Best,
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSurly View Post
8. I noticed the difference in the two-step barrel but I don't know when the production change occurred.
Thanks!
8. Post WW II.
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:54 PM
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Default What Serial Number range for the THIRD thousand??

I have collected information about Frame Serial Number and matching Grip Numbers whenever possible.

Have not learned the serial number range for the THIRD thousand produced.

FIRST thousand 138xxx - 139xxx
SECOND thousand 163xxx - 164xxx

Can anybody supply a serial number between 164xxx and 207xxx ??

Bekeart

22/32 Heavy Frame Target

Start Production 1911 138226 -139257
Jinks p 151 / 1031 pieces?



22/32 Serial Number / Grip Number that I have learned of

138245 / 47
138368 / 111
138437 / 567
138539 / 274
138569 / 683
138583 / ?? Shipped July 20, 1911 - Hartley & Company
138934 / 518
139079 / ?? Shipped September 11, 1911 - Folsom & Company
139254 / 989 Shipped September 15, 1911 - Termusch Fishing and Tackle Company
163198 / ?? Shipped May 1912
163234 / ?? Shipped May 1912
1632xx / 1181
163353 / ?? Shipped May 1912
163373 / 1222 Shipped May 1912
1633xx / 1133
1635xx / 1298
1636XX / 1693
163605 / ?? Shipped in May 1912, but did NOT go to Bekeart.
163662 / 1615 Shipped to Bekeart on June 3, 1912
163698 / ?? did go to Bekeart in June 1912.
163803 / 1546
163908 / 1686
164112 / 2046
164122 / 1858
164xxx / 1869


?? 207998 / 2117 ??

207926 - 208416 shipped to M.W.Robinson in 1914.
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:05 PM
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It seems many are of the opinion that my grips are not original to this gun but I'm not certain there's a concensus on just why they must be wrong. Has anyone established the highest serial # for the '3000' guns?

Here is a pic of both grips.

and this is a link to a high res crop.

Look 'em over and tell me... if it just can't be original, please explain?

I'm here for the facts, I ain't scared of 'em.

Thanks
Ricky
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:22 PM
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You have a very nice revolver even with a replaced barrel. Something to keep in mind is that a penciled number on the inside of the grip is not proof of anything. Anyone with a pencil can put it there.
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:23 PM
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Full S/N, to place in listing, 163209, grip 1181.
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekeart View Post
FIRST thousand 138xxx - 139xxx
SECOND thousand 163xxx - 164xxx

Can anybody supply a serial number between 164xxx and 207xxx ??

Bekeart

?? 207998 / 2117 ??

207926 - 208416 shipped to M.W.Robinson in 1914.
Thanks for posting this! I THINK your info implies that the grips COULD be original(?)

Looking through the list you posted is bizzare! the serial and grip numbers aren't even in any real order! Well, I guess they are roughly in order. I'm guessing that the guns were on the line and complete but for grips when someone delivered a box of grips that were already numbered matched pairs...then they were just grabbed from the box randomly for installation as normally done, and the frame number written on the grip as it met the frame. Grips are not usually numbered so I would think this would be common practice. So, a box of say, 200 matched pairs might go on the first 200 guns, but the third gun might have grip number 110 or whatever.
Thanks, waiting for more!
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:52 PM
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Sorry for the misinformation on the SN range for the numbered stocks, always learning new information.
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:58 PM
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MrSurly,

as pointed out above, I too have never seen a Left Panel Grip with the serial # penciled on it. It is always just the right grip in my experience. That yours is on the left panel too tells me that it was put there by someone other than the factory after the fact.
Now will I say 100% positive on this? NO, but I would not pay a premium for it as It is a Question mark on the originality of the grips that you will always have to defend.

JMO

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Old 01-13-2011, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSurly View Post
Thanks for posting this! I THINK your info implies that the grips COULD be original(?)

Looking through the list you posted is bizzare! the serial and grip numbers aren't even in any real order! Well, I guess they are roughly in order. I'm guessing that the guns were on the line and complete but for grips when someone delivered a box of grips that were already numbered matched pairs...then they were just grabbed from the box randomly for installation as normally done, and the frame number written on the grip as it met the frame. Grips are not usually numbered so I would think this would be common practice. So, a box of say, 200 matched pairs might go on the first 200 guns, but the third gun might have grip number 110 or whatever.
Thanks, waiting for more!
You have just described the collectors nemesis about S&W assembly/shipping of products perfectly and are no longer a virgin. We've all had our bubble burst when we 1st realized as Roy Jinks always says: S&W was in business to make a good product and a profit, not to make it easy for we collectors. However, your comment; "Grips are not usually numbered" may be generalized for all brands but not true for S&W which religiously numbered the right grip (not both however) on pre-war guns.
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:10 PM
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Bekeart,
Here's another "Lettered" Early Bekeart for your Data Base. Serial Number 138911 w/707 Numbered Grips. Shipped August 1,1911 to E.K.Tryon Co. Philadelphia,Pa.

Masterpiece
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
"Grips are not usually numbered" may be generalized for all brands but not true for S&W which religiously numbered the right grip (not both however) on pre-war guns.
Point taken, my meaning was that in normal practice, grips didn't come from the 'wood shop' pre-serialized and the penciled number was done in the gunshop.

Warning: My supposition only>>>

The difference here being that the wood shop actually numbered these with the stamp before delivery to the gunshop. HOWEVER,
the gunshop people paid no heed to the numbers on the wood as they selected a pair to install.

Tell if that makes sense?

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Old 01-13-2011, 09:04 PM
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I note with some curiosity that the stamped stock number is on the left grip half...and the reported usual location of the penciled number is on the right half. Maybe they decided to put it on the left BECAUSE of the stamped number!

Yeah, I know, just being silly with that.

Seriously, folks...
In one post I'm told that the penciled number PROVES nothing.
Yet other posts say the number (on a low-number gun) proves it's original.
In another, I'm told it PROVES a fake.

Y'all confused as I?
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSurly View Post
I note with some curiosity that the stamped stock number is on the left grip half...and the reported usual location of the penciled number is on the right half. Maybe they decided to put it on the left BECAUSE of the stamped number!

Yeah, I know, just being silly with that.

Seriously, folks...
In one post I'm told that the penciled number PROVES nothing.
Yet other posts say the number (on a low-number gun) proves it's original.
In another, I'm told it PROVES a fake.

Y'all confused as I?
Not at all. This is not a science and there are not always absolute answers. Your gun has been evaluated with fairly high certainty. It may not be what you wanted to hear but it will not get any better unless more facts come to light; it is what it is.

You've received the best plausible facts and experienced opinions from some of the most knowledgeable S&W collectors who have spent years collecting data, studying and sharing information and time free of charge. But they are not clairvoyant and they do not have to agree. That is the world of collecting. What you do with it is up to you.

You can re-read and try to clarify to yourself what you've been sincerely offered in good faith. You can also seek more data in the SCSW, the 3rd edition being the most complete but no source will have a definitive answer and certainly not equal to this forum's cumulative knowledge.
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Old 01-14-2011, 01:32 AM
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I brought out my bekeart and my SN is 1632XX afterall and my grip number is 1255. I took off my grips to check for the right grip SN and the numbers apparently have been smudged by oil or some cleaning solvent which dripped into the grips. I could make out 16- then nothing. I say they're original!
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goring's S&W View Post
I brought out my bekeart and my SN is 1632XX afterall and my grip number is 1255. I took off my grips to check for the right grip SN and the numbers apparently have been smudged by oil or some cleaning solvent which dripped into the grips. I could make out 16- then nothing. I say they're original!
Yeah! but what about the LEFT grip!!

Just kidding!
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:25 AM
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My take on what's been covered so far:

First, let me say THANKS! to all who have responded, a big thank you! My quest for info continues.
My true goal here is merely facts. I'm not in denial nor am I harboring crazy ideas about special collector Holy Grail. EVERY bit of input is helpful in this search. I am only looking to gain whatever reasonable certainty as can be attained when dealing with hundred-year mysteries.

My follow-up WILL be to get the 'letter' from Mr. Jinks that I've been reading about. Obviously, I don't know if he has the info on this gun, but I'm hopin'! From the replies here and things I've read elsewhere I've come to a couple of conclusions, I'll see if I can convey them here and you guys will straighten me out.
I am aware that this IS NOT a "True Bekeart".

The concern at hand (for me) is whether this gun is in fact one of the 3000 numbered first-issue Bekearts as implied by the grip stamp.
Please understand that I know that this determination is of no real import to the rest of the world but it matters to me; not as an advocate for it, but because...
as Ernest Robinson so aptly put it: "Mistuh?....I gots ta know."
Among the collector-types here, surely you guys understand my need to figure these little details!

There seems to be a 'common knowledge' about these guns that is based on reasonable certainty of the ship dates and serial number ranges for the first run of a thousand and then for the second run of a thousand. The implication would be that there's a thousand piece run not accounted for, wouldn't it?
In almost every case, this knowledge (1st run, 2nd run) is the exclusive basis of the determination that this gun cant be real, because the serial is too high to fit into the known serial ranges.
Am I correct so far?

Well, if each run was approximately 1000 pieces.. #2117 could not belong in those runs, right?
Wouldn't 2117 HAVE to be in the Third run?
As "Bekeart" pointed out, does anyone know the dates or serials for the third run?

I can sense the eyes rolling and the "Oh fer Chrisakes!" reactions out there...
I'm not looking for some special dispensation to make a wrong gun 'real'. I'm actually just looking for the history to make some sort of sense.
If there were only two runs of 1000 each 'known'....then there HAD to be a third run, right? (if there were 3000 total)


Summary
I hope Mr. Jinks can lift the veil and maybe explain the timing of the 3rd run, if there was one!
I am willing to accept that the gun is wrong once I'm shown something concrete. In my opinion, we're not quite concrete at this point.
Reasons cited for rejection:
1.The left grip is numbered.
Unusual, no doubt, but exclusionary? if the serial question did not exist? I just can't buy that...convince me.
2.Serial doesn't fit in the range for the 1st 1000.
This one's numbered over 2000, this fits.
3.Serial doesn't fit in the range for the 2nd 1000.
This one's numbered over 2000, this fits.

Still diggin'!

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Old 01-14-2011, 12:14 PM
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The truest "Bekeart" is one that letters as shipped to the man himself.
In their 2nd edition of the SCSW Supica and Nahas state that although it is arguable
"There are at least four levels of "Bekeartness".

1, First Bekeart shipment.
2, First Bekeart pattern production run.
3, Bekeart grip numbered revolvers.
4,"Bekeart shipped 22/32 HE's from later production.

They go into it a bit further in SCSW 2nd ed. page 85 and also say that Roy Jinks wrote an article on the matter that was "published in the journal of the SCWA,reprinted beginning at page 158 of book 1 of the 25th anniversary reprint" .
Does anyone have a copy off this article ?

On a side note,
I inherited 138437 grip number 567 that I have been told is one of a few that although is in the serial range of first shipment did not go to Mr Bekeart .
Using the above scale it is a level 2 First Bekeart pattern production run 22/32 HE.

While the only thing that will solve the riddle is a factory letter yours appears to be at least a level 3 if not a level 4.
If your gun does end up lettering as shipped to Mr Bekeart from later production...IMHO your gun would have a higher level of true "Bekeartness" than mine.

Very interesting firearm ....Good luck !

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Old 01-14-2011, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Summary
I hope Mr. Jinks can lift the veil and maybe explain the timing of the 3rd run, if there was one!
I am willing to accept that the gun is wrong once I'm shown something concrete. In my opinion, we're not quite concrete at this point.
Reasons cited for rejection:
1.The left grip is numbered.
Unusual, no doubt, but exclusionary? if the serial question did not exist? I just can't buy that...convince me.
2.Serial doesn't fit in the range for the 1st 1000.
This one's numbered over 2000, this fits.
3.Serial doesn't fit in the range for the 2nd 1000.
This one's numbered over 2000, this fits.

Still diggin'!
Since the barrel is definitely not original, one wonders how much other work to the gun has been performed. Since the barrel was replaced, IMO, its not out of the question for the gun to be reblued, replaced grips, action work etc. I'm not saying yours has all of this work done, but on the other hand there is a distinct possibility that someone got a gun with a barrel bulge for a song and a dance that didn't have grips and then some ambitious fellow tried to bring it back as a shooter or to make money. Of course, it wouldn't be profitable to do today but who knows what happened in the guns life. I think the left grip is written on with some kind of fraud in mind because if one was trying to bring the gun back to a shooting state (barrel is replaced) there would be no need to write the number on the left or right grip. Furthermore, I never saw a left grip SN as others have said. S&Ws quality control at that time was strict enough to where most of the guns from that time still work great today after many thousands of rounds. They paid attention to every detail of each gun. Just look at the craftsmanship of anything before WWII from S&W, truly amazing guns.

I think your gun, overall, was someone's "resurrection" project and that overall, they did a good job. I don't think its some kind of left grip inexplicable anomaly because surely others would have surfaced by now. Who ever would have made the error would have done it more than once if they got away with this one leaving the factory as is. Just my 2 cents.

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Old 01-14-2011, 03:40 PM
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Default S&W 22/32

I have on that is original and serial numbered
139006 with grips stamped on the bottom 692?
was this on of the first so called runs of this Model
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:28 PM
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HI
I can tell you that in the factory shipping records the grip number is not listed. there was a thread a few years ago on the grip serial number thing and I think at that time roy said that there is not a connection between the grip number and the serial number.
so a factory letter will tell you three things.
1. when the gun was shipped.
2. where it was shipped.
3. how it was configured. blue, barrel length, grips.

if you send for a letter send copys of all the pictures with it
and then roy will tell you what the B inside a diamond means,
and that it has the new style ejector rod on it.
if it was a factory rework it should have had a date on it.
maybe the factory missed putting a date on it.
just my 2 cents worth.
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:54 PM
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Default Yes it is one of the first production run in 1911.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daybreak10 View Post
I have on that is original and serial numbered
139006 with grips stamped on the bottom 692?
was this on of the first so called runs of this Model
Yes it is from the 1911 production.

Production 1911 138226 -139257
Jinks p 151 / 1031 pieces?

Bekeart
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:18 AM
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A question for Bekeart: (OK, two) reading your earlier posts, you reference a large shipment to "Robinson" and listed serial numbers that would include my 207998. Two questions:

1. Do you believe that the Robinson order was filled with the "third thousand' or Third run of Bekeart production?

2. Do you believe, based on serial number alone, that it is POSSIBLE that my gun was a legitimate part of the third run?


BMG60,
Jim, thanks for your input. I am fully aware as I stated in post #30 that the barrel has been replaced. I am also aware that the B-in-a-diamond means (guess what) that the barrel has been replaced.
I am fairly sure that the fact that the barrel has been replaced doesn't, by itself, mean that the gun must not be original in any other aspect. I will look it over even more closely to search again for any date or stars etc. I am readying the letter at this time! I am hoping Mr. Jinks can shed some light on it all. I know that he can't provide any info on the grip numbers, but I am really hopeful that he can determine by production records if it is one of the first 3000 22/32s built.

Goring's S&W:
A resurrection? Somewhat harsh, eh? You've gone to a lot of trouble creating a scenario whereby a new barrel begets a sordid affair of missing parts, unscrupulous owners, number-forgers and a junkyard-magnet's parts assemblage! All this to discredit an old gun that could possibly yet prove to be legit; save for the now-well-documented barrel swap. Your effort to dispose of this gun reads like you are somewhat threatened by it. I truly don't get that.
My understanding (please provide the correction) is this: The fact remains that the serial number groups that are known, are supposedly for the first TWO thousand and the whereabouts and the disposition the last (lost???) thousand is still open. It is possible that this piece might actually be a significant clue about that run. Or it might just be a junkyard dog.

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Old 01-15-2011, 03:14 AM
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More data points, i.e., serial numbers and shipping dates will only come with time and patience. And as was said, get a letter. That's the only place left to dig and then maybe you can contribute a data point as well.
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:46 AM
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Default Get in touch with Mr. Jinks about 207998

Get in touch with Mr. Jinks about 207998

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSurly View Post
A question for Bekeart: (OK, two) reading your earlier posts, you reference a large shipment to "Robinson" and listed serial numbers that would include my 207998. Two questions:

1. Do you believe that the Robinson order was filled with the "third thousand' or Third run of Bekeart production?

2. Do you believe, based on serial number alone, that it is POSSIBLE that my gun was a legitimate part of the third run?
Two Questions - One Answer: I don't know.


My note about the serial numbers for the M.W. Robins order:
Quote:
207926 - 208416 shipped to M.W.Robinson in 1914.
got me to thinking. Why would this order be in sequential serial number order when the order to Phil Bekeart was NOT in sequential serial number order.

Looked further in the collected notes and found this clarification.

Quote:
Roy Jinks, S&W factory historian, as asked members of the SWCA to let him know if anyone finds a .22/32 Heavy Frame Bekeart Model with a serial number between 207926 and 208416. These were part of a large order shipped to M.W.Robinson in 1914. He would like the details on any guns found within those serial numbers range, as apparently there are some interesting facts associated with the order.

Get in touch with Mr. Jinks about 207998


Bekeart

Last edited by Bekeart; 01-15-2011 at 10:51 AM. Reason: Typos and changing title
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:59 PM
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Default S&W 22/32

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekeart View Post
Yes it is from the 1911 production.

Production 1911 138226 -139257
Jinks p 151 / 1031 pieces?

Bekeart
Thank You for the reply and info, actually I have no interest in
this Piece and would like to trade it for another S&W that is could
Target shot with
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daybreak10 View Post
Thank You for the reply and info, actually I have no interest in
this Piece and would like to trade it for another S&W that is could
Target shot with
PM sent. I would like more info on your gun. Thanks
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:18 PM
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Default Also a New Guy with a 22/32 Question

I purchased a gun for my son to learn shooting a pistol. I purchased a S&W. I didn't know anyhting about it and was going to reblue it. The dealer stopped me. I have not been able to find out anything about what I had until I saw this post. My gun has 22 Long Rifle CTG on the barrel and then Smith and Wesson Springfield Mass (with a bunch of patent numbers on the top of the barrel). There is no serial number on the bottom of the wood grips. The Cylinder and the metal plate behind the trigger guard (running down the handleis 163127 with a star after it. Can anyone tell me what I have and what it's worth? SHoulkd I not be shooting this gun for fun and put it away? Thanks for any insight!!!
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Old 09-30-2011, 03:53 PM
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Bringing this thread back up since I love talking about the .22/32 HFT's.

McSurly, did you ever letter the gun??? Not to belabor the point, but from reading all of the posts in the thread, your .22/32 HFT has had the barrel replaced, the extractor rod replaced, and the "stocks" are questionable as to being original to the gun.

Normally, S&W only numbered the right stock panel and after 100 years or so, most of these pencil markings are very faint to say the least. Your stocks are very boldly marked and the serial number appears on both stock panels. Very possibly a prior owner wrote over the faint number on the right panel so it would be legible and then decided to mark the left so they would marry to this gun. Also possible that someone knew that stocks were typically pencil marked and decided to validate these stocks to this gun. At this point who knows.

Collector value of your gun is diminished due to the barrel and extractor rod swap, so the stock discussion is merely academic at this point.

So to refresh, there is no corelation between serial numbers and the 3000 numbered stock numbers. Even Roy Jinks can not tell you what the number of the stocks were when you request a letter. (Not to be confused with the penciled serial number inside the right panel). Conversely, he can tell you which registration number goes with what serial number and vice versa on the Registered Magnums.(S&W trivia) Those records are available, no so for the Bekearts.

S&W did not ship in serial number sequence. Bekeart received his first 292 guns in seven shipments between June 7 and August 31, 1911. The first shipment started with 138,227, 229, 230 232, 233. So within the first 5 guns shipped, 228 and 231 did not go to Bekeart and will letter to somewhere else.

The gun became a catalogued model in 1915 at around serial number 160,000. (S&W trivia)

Not really sure what happened to serial numbers between 139,248 (last known Bekeart) and 160,000 (cataloged guns). I have never seen a .22/32 with a serial number in the 140,000 or 150,000 range. I own 3, one in the 160's, one in the 270's and one in the 384's.

Anybody have one in the 140's or 150's???
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Old 09-30-2011, 05:04 PM
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Just to add a little detail on 1 of these neat guns: SN163198 wears extended target stocks numbered 1168 on the bottom and have the faint but visible same serial number 163198 on the right grip panel. Shipped 1912.
This is a very informative thread! Thanks to all participants.
L Slaten
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Old 10-02-2011, 02:45 PM
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Default Two points overlooked!

Hey MrSurly
The serial number of a gun were on the grips because the grips were fitted to that gun while the gun was in the white, then removed while the gun was sent to the blueing dept. This insured the proper grips were installed on the gun at final assembly! As stated before the number on the bottom of the grips has no correlation to the serial number.
IMHO, production runs of 1000 guns is a bit over estimated! During the time period we are talking about there was no CNC machinery and production methods had many machines and people involved in the production of one gun! I think this alone would cause the "blocks of serial numbers" to be mixed much more easily. Also these 22/32 Targets were serial numbered in the 32 HE series and I am sure there were many more HEs made than 22/32 Targets in 1000 serial numbers!
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Old 10-02-2011, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmg60 View Post
Hi
here,s the information on the Bekeart models they were only 292 that were shipped to Phil Beleart. all the guns were shipped in 1911 and were in the serial number range of 130xxx. these are the only real Bekeart models.
the grip numbers do not mean that a gun is a bekeart model.
all the ones that were shipped after the 292. went to various places.
and they were call 22/32 heavy target models.
thats what your gun is and it was shipped in the late 1918 to 1920.
I hope this helps.
Jim Fisher
Here is a picture of a one of 292 first shippment to Bekeart.
and the real box.
the Grip number is #274 Serial Number of gun Is 138539 and it shipped to Phil Bekeart.







Jim,
Is that the gun and box that sold in Old Town Stations Auction of Gary and Martha Sheets Smith & Wesson collection. I sold Gary an original Bekeart and Martha bought a box in Tulsa. She called me the night she bought it. Shortly after that I sold the gun to Gary.
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Old 11-08-2013, 10:12 PM
jametcalfe83 jametcalfe83 is offline
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A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One?  
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Originally Posted by Bekeart View Post
22/32 Serial Number / Grip Number that I have learned of

138245 / 47
138368 / 111
138437 / 567
138539 / 274
138569 / 683
138583 / ?? Shipped July 20, 1911 - Hartley & Company
138934 / 518
139079 / ?? Shipped September 11, 1911 - Folsom & Company
139254 / 989 Shipped September 15, 1911 - Termusch Fishing and Tackle Company
163198 / ?? Shipped May 1912
163234 / ?? Shipped May 1912
1632xx / 1181
163353 / ?? Shipped May 1912
163373 / 1222 Shipped May 1912
1633xx / 1133
1635xx / 1298
1636XX / 1693
163605 / ?? Shipped in May 1912, but did NOT go to Bekeart.
163662 / 1615 Shipped to Bekeart on June 3, 1912
163698 / ?? did go to Bekeart in June 1912.
163803 / 1546
163908 / 1686
164112 / 2046
164122 / 1858
164xxx / 1869


?? 207998 / 2117 ??

207926 - 208416 shipped to M.W.Robinson in 1914.
Hello there,
I am new to the forum and believe that I have a Bekaert original. The SN is 138795 / Grip Number 395
Am thinking it would be worth it to get the factory letter, thoughts? Thanks for any info!
-Jacob
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  #47  
Old 11-09-2013, 01:14 AM
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jsfricks jsfricks is offline
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Jacob,
Read post #2 from Jim-
here,s the information on the Bekeart models they were only 292 that were shipped to Phil Beleart. all the guns were shipped in 1911 and were in the serial number range of 130xxx. these are the only real Bekeart models.
the grip numbers do not mean that a gun is a bekeart model.
all the ones that were shipped after the 292. went to various places.
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  #48  
Old 11-09-2013, 05:16 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One?  
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Unfortunately, many under informed sellers tend to lump all 22/32 HFTs with the very early issue true 'Bekeart’ Model, but they do not all share the same rarity/collectability and each of the four recognized Bekeart classes vary substantially in value even in like condition.

The four classification of "True" Bekeart Models in order of their collectability and value are summarized below from the SCS&W, 3rd edition:

On April 25, 1911 an order for the 1st production run of 1,050 Bekeart models began in the serial range of # 138226 thru # 139275, completed on July 10, 1911. Only 1,044 revolvers were actually completed/shipped and their grips were #’d 1 - 1044.

The 1st classification of "True" Bekeart Models are the 294 (lately revised from 292 by Roy Jinks) of that original production run within the above range that were actually shipped to Bekeart.

The 2nd class of Bekearts are the remainder of the guns in that production run and serial range that went to other dealers.

The 3rd class of Bekearts is the remainder with grip numbers from #1 to #3000 after which grip #s were discontinued, but there is no official factory 'list' of serial numbers for this class, albeit there are accumulated partial lists from lettered guns; the grip number and with grip serial number matching the gun, being sufficient to identify them along with a factory letter.

The 4th and last class, also least valuable or desirable, is any 22/32 Heavy Frame Target from later pre-war production runs that 'letter' as being shipped to Bekeart Sporting goods in S.F. Again there is no official serial number list for this class.

Notes:

Roy Jinks states that the stock number indicates the sequence that the gun was assembled. Or in other words, gun #138227 w/stock #289 was the 289th gun assembled. But it's known by the serial number 138227, although the second serial # numerically in the 1st production run, it wasn’t shipped until the 4th Bekeart shipment. So it is evident as with most S&W guns, there was no rhyme or reason related to the serial # as to when guns were shipped by S&W.

Bekeart serial numbers were in the .32 Hand Ejector serial number series, so there are huge gaps in the Bekeart serial #s. For example, the next production run started at 160,000. Obviously the guns in between were .32 HEs.

When Smith added this model to regular production c.1915 it was given the model name of 22/32 Heavy Frame Target, because relative to the tiny M frame Ladysmith, the only other Smith .22 at the time, it was a heavier frame.
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Last edited by Hondo44; 11-14-2013 at 09:26 PM.
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  #49  
Old 11-09-2013, 03:17 PM
opoefc opoefc is offline
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A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One?  
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Group, FYI, Ser. # 138226 ( first 22/32 assembled, formerly in my collection) did not go to Phil Bekeart, but to a NY distributor, as I recall. It was in poor condition with incorrect grips, when I owned it many years ago. Also, 207977 was shipped Jan. 14, 1914, to M.W.Robinson, as part of a shipment of 490 revolvers, shipped in several batches. All the 490 guns had a number on the bottom of the grips. Ed.

Last edited by opoefc; 11-09-2013 at 03:34 PM.
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  #50  
Old 11-14-2013, 03:28 PM
opoefc opoefc is offline
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A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One? A New Guy and a Bekeart. A Real One?  
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Add this to the survey: Ser. # 138694 has stocks with number 555. Ed.
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