Wondering if anyone else thought this was an intreresting Revolver? Or had researched it to any extent?

It app[ears to me to be a Cut-Down of a formerly normal 'Victory' Barrel Length.


Serial Number V510210

Would this Serial Number have been within a range of Lend Lease? and, hence, originally, a .38 S & W Chambering?


If so, and or, whether re-chambered to .38 Special or not, I have not been able to find out.


Image here -


Oswald's Revolver - Awesome Stories


Have any of you researched this Revolver?

Somewhere in a prior posting, or article on the gun, I recall it was a .38/200
caliber Lend Lease gun, converted to .38S&W Special & with a cut barrel. Oswald used it to shoot & kill Dallas PD Offier J.D.Tibbett Ed.

Ed's memory is again correct. The Warren Commission Report notes it has British proof stamps on the cylinder, originally chambered the .38 S&W cartridge, and was later rechambered to .38 Special.

__________________
David Wilson

Four .38 Special cases were reported to have been recovered at the scene. Photos show the bulge you would expect from a rechambered .38 S&W. Curious that he would take the time to reload at the crime scene.

The revolver is a cut down Victory. Like so many aspects of the Kennedy killing there are questions about the gun supposedly used to murder Officer Tippit. Some claim the bullets recovered were not the same manufacture as the casings, that sort of thing.

At least one author claimed that Oswald tried to shoot approaching cops in the theater but the gun malfunctioned due to the missing ejector rod lug. Others say he offered no resistance when arrested. Too many stories, not enough clear fact.

I assume the Victory is in storage with the FBI along with other items associated with the case.

This site has info including a photo of the revolver.

http://www.jdtippit.com/html/evidence_nov.htm

The .38 Special cases in the photo seem to show swelling about a third of the way out from the head. This would indicate the typical method of 'rechambering' of the V models - just run a drill thru to open the cylinder bores full length.

The revoilver was shipped to A. J. Hidell, an Oswald alias, on March 20, 1963 for $29.95. Oswald used a PO Box. The cartridges not matching factoid is constantly latched on to by conspiracy theorists as more proof of a conspiracy. Reality is they match a 200 to special conversion perfectly.
Don't remember what happened to the gun itself, maybe Elvis has it?

Bob

when inserting a live .38 special (.357 diameter bullet) into a .38 S&W (.361) cylinder, wouldn't the .38 special simply fall completely thru the cylinder and out the otherside of the cylinder? i am almost positive that it will!!! how was oswalds revolver rechambered??
also, if the original barrel was not rechambered for the smaller diameter bullet (.38 special) wouldn't the bullet literally bounce down the barrel? was oswalds revolver bored out and relined for the new smaller diameter rechambering?? what i am asking is how was it rechambered? thank you!

While your correct on the bullet dia. the 38 spl is a rimmed case made for revolvers so the rim is what holds the case in place.

In addition to the reported mismatch of the .38 bullets to fired cases, I also remember that it was not possible to do a definitive ballistic match of the fired bullets to the V-Model, probably due to the oversized bore vs. the bullet diameter. There are a great many ballistic inconsistencies and mysteries involving both the revolver and the Carcano rifle, and it's likely that, after 50 years, they will remain just that. And no one has figured out exactly what reason existed for Oswald to have shot Officer Tippitt. There's considerable speculation that if Oswald would have stood trial that there was inadequate hard evidence to support a conviction on either shooting charge.

I was in Dallas that day, but at the opposite end of the downtown area. As a very peripheral observer of the events, I have maintained an interest in what happened there.

ok i have a .38 S&W revolver (right now) with the cylinder open and empty. i also have live or loaded .38 special cartridges. i now drop or load a .38 special into the empty cylinder (where you load the shells).
it almost stays in place but, with a little jiggle or shake of the gun, and barrel pointed towards the floor, the bullets simply drop out of the front of the cylinder one by one. they do not stay in the cylinder.?? (it is chambered for .38 S&W revolver, and they .38 S&W shells or cartridges fit and work fine as the revolver was originally chamber for)

If a loaded 38 S&W Special cartridge falls completely through the chamber of a cylinder chambered for 38 S&W, you have a very dangerous situation. The case head of a .38 Special measures .435" to .440" in diameter. If I understand you correctly, your cylinder chambers are bored to .440" to allow the case head to fall through. I urge you to have the gun examined by a qualified gunsmith to assess it's safety.

Russ

Me thinks Tom Hoffa is pretty much full of it.

A .38 S&W has a rim diameter of .44 inches.

A .38 Special also has a rim diameter of .44 inches.

A .357 Magnum also has a rim diameter of .44 inches.

A .38 S&W will fall through any cylinder bored big enough for a .38 Special to fall through.......

Just as a point of interest, a .38 Special cartridge will not fall through a .44 Magnum cylinder (a .44 cylinder is typically throated .431 or so, the .38 rim is .440 as pointed out above.

ditto on what linde said

I have owned a couple of M-19's bored sloppily enough that I could put FIRED .38 S&W cases (From a .38-200) in the cylinder! Those guns gave hard extraction with .357 ammo.

I had Roy Jinks send me the bore diameter for .38-200 revolvers and they aren't that different from .38 Spcl. Some shooters shoot .38 Spcl. bullets loaded in .38 S&W cases and report good accuracy.

I read in a UK gun magazine that the RAF had problems with jacketed .38-200 bullets ocasionally sticking in S&W barrels during shoots at Bisley. Those bore diameters are probably tighter than for Webley and Enfield .38's and the powder charge was light. I wouldn't be surprised if some .38-200 S&W's were shipped with .38 Special bored barrels, too.

I, too, think Tom is pulling our legs. If not, I bet he has a very odd gun.

I posted on the subject several months back. The revolver is stored at the National Archives and Records Administration. You can search it up there. As I recall it was a Canadian .38-200, purchased in Quebec by Seaport Traders, who altered it to a"Commando Special". Chopped, reamed and sight reset; still wearing military grips and butt swivel. Shipped Railway Express to the aforementioned alias.

The gun is at NARA in College Park, MD along with the rifle used to shoot President Kennedy. A friend of mine who works there got to escort the rifle down to Quantico so the FBI could do some ballistics testing with it - the FBI agent doing the testing let my buddy shoot it. How cool is that!

"also, if the original barrel was not rechambered for the smaller diameter bullet (.38 special) wouldn't the bullet literally bounce down the barrel? was oswalds revolver bored out and relined for the new smaller diameter rechambering??"

There is not that much difference between the bore of a Smith & Wesson revolver chambered in .38 S&W and one chambered in .38 special. A lot of the time, a lead bullet will upset enough to give decent accuracy.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

As I recall only one of four recovered slugs showed engraving of any significance. Shooting .357 projectiles out of a .361 barrel of course. There is also some ballistics info at the NARA site.

For anyone interested Training4LifeLLC has an article on chopped K-200's entitled Bad Guns. FWIW.

Now that I muse on it a little, "$29.95" plus shipping, for a cut-down ex WWII Victory Revolver originally chamberd for .38-200, but modified to accept .38 Special, was no deal in 1963.

In 1963, any local Gun Store, with no shipping necessary, one could but a plenty nice enough, used, 2 Inch K-Frame/Military Model S&W or Colt Detective Special originally meant for .38 Special, for the same dough or less, I am sure.

Yes? No?

That's true for that time period. One could get nice used S&W M&Ps in a pawn shop, gun shop, or gun show for less than $50. I bought a Victory model (in .38 S&W Special, not rebored) about that time for, as I remember, $35. It had been a Police gun, marked as being the Ohio State University Police.

Southern Gun Distributors of Miami, Florida - cut, re-bored, nickeled plated, and added plastic stag grips to hundreds of S&W 38 S&W Victory Models in the 1950-1960 era. $24.95 for the 4/5" barrels and $29.95 for the 2" (cut) barrels.
Firing .38spl cartridges n the .38 S&W chamber usually "Swelled" the cases. The accuracy of the .357 bullet traveling down the .360 bore was somewhat eratic with some and acceptable in others.
Retail of a S&W Model 10 Blued was $65.00 in that era.
Most Pawn Shops in my area stocked the SGD Victorys at $30.00 - a saving of $35.00 below a new S&W.

My 13 year old boy just bought a descent U.S. Victory in .38 Special yesterday for $350.00 . I have to show him what they were going for when I was born.

Speaking of Kennedy Assassination related firearms, this is one of my all time favorite threads on this forum. Be sure to read it all and no fair jumping to the end...

"Jack Ruby's other gun"?

__________________
Dave

Wow!


What an interesting tale that is.


I would love to see some images of the S&W in question.

To answer your earlier questions, the conversion from .38 S & W (shorter and wider than the .38 Special) was to ream the chambers longer without altering their diameters. Therefore, the Special would chamber lengthwise but would be too small in circumference, hence the cases will bulge or split with the pressure of firing. The extractor did not need to be altered.

Your description of how your gun functions suggests either your ammunition or one or more of the cylinder chambers is out of spec. Also, if rounds fall through the front of the cylinder, the one lined up with the barrel should tie up the gun and not allow the gun to fire, so this is a mystery.

Either way, as linde mentioned, you should not shoot it again until it is checked. Replacement cylinders are available and should be easy to install. Hope this is helpful.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I have read that some of the more professional modifications of the V-Model in .38/200 involved boring out and sleeving each chamber. I don't think I have seen one done that way. Has anyone?

I suspect the testing mentioned above involved .38Spl Bullets being pressed thru the .38S&W throats, which they would likely pass thru. While not bore filling , there would probably be enough resistance from the lands to not drop thru.

Upon firing the base of a lead bullet would obdurate to an extent. Depending on the bullet size , design , alloy , and throat and grove dia of gun it may or may not engage enough for a degree of accuracy.

If one owned such a gun , and wished to shoot std dia .38 spl bullets/ loads , I would opine that hollow based wadcutters best bet.

As to the reverse I have seen people shoot .38S&W thru .38Spl guns , and consided that semi-common and unremarkable. In particular it was considered a more pleasant loading for recreational shooting in Chiefs Specials.

Just a matter of trying individual brands and lots of ammo in a particular gun. I have read that R-P .38S&W ammo usually is slightly smaller , and most likely to chamber in .38Spl guns. I have even read of polishing the chambers of .38Spl chambered Derringer to allow shooting .38S&W.

Handloaders so inclined could adapt in either direction by using larger dia bullets to match the throats of converted guns , or by various means size the .38S&W cases a few thousandths smaller. In today's time brass and loaded ctgs are commercially available for .38 Long and .38 Short for those so inclined.

Must confess that back in the day our shop 'converted' many "Victory" model revolvers to accept the longer .38 Spl. cases.
We used a special reamer which was a .38 S&W reamer in .38 Special length.
The importers of these revolvers paid their bills on time and paid us well for the work.

Yours is the first reference I have seen from someone who actually has firsthand knowledge about doing those .38/200 conversions, although I imagine they were done by many shops in many places. I had previously assumed that just a standard .38 Special chamber reamer was used for the chamber conversion.

If you have more information about the conversions, it would be welcome as it is historically significant, at least to S&W fans.

INTERESTING!!!

Here's a fun fact - offhand, I don't know where the gun is now that Ruby used to kill Oswald but for a long time it sat in a bank vault in Dallas. The safety deposit box it was in was the one used by Ruby's attorney. I'm not sure how he wound up with the gun. But the story was told to me because the attorney was a member of my Masonic Lodge in Dallas. At some point a few decades ago there was a lawsuit over possession - I forget how it turned out.

***GRJ***

Just for the record, and not to steal the thread, I thought that 13-year olds were not permitted to own guns/buy guns. I thought the minimum age for handguns was 21. Call me crazy.....

***GRJ***

I've posted these a couple of times in other threads, but sometimes a picture does help.

All of the bored-out victories I have personally seen looked similar to this, You can see where the new longer step is cut to accommodate the longer cartridge and the tell-tale fairy-ring left by the reamer:



When fired, the cases do bulge in the area in the original 38 S&W diameter (some much worse than this). At least in my gun, it appears that the bored part of the cylinder was nominally 38 SPL diameter. Here is a fired "normal" .38 S&W case on the right and .38 SPL case on the left for comparison:



Lead .357" bullets do OK, but don't expect too much. From a 2" belly gun, it's probably good enough.

Rick

The bulge in the rear part of the case only is why I have always assumed a .38 Special chamber cutter was used to rechamber the .38 S&W chambers - because the part of the case near the mouth is not expanded so much.

I have still never seen anything definitive regarding if the bore diameters in the .38/200s and the US .38 Special Victories are the same or not. All I can say is that .38 Special bullets have always worked OK for me in .38 S&W revolvers.

What else would give you the length you needed to chamber specials?
The bulge is what is left of the fatter .38 S&W chamber.

An earlier posting in this same thread suggested that a special chambering reamer the diameter of the .38 S&W case, but of .38 Special length, was used.

The bulge is not in the rear part of the case, but in all of the case forward of the web, which is thicker near the base. Both the fired cases and the photos of the reamed chambers show just what Tired Gunsmith described - a chamber reamed to .38 S&W diameter to .38 Special length. If a .38 special reamer were used, it would leave a step in the chamber, not just the shadow that is seen. As far as the .38 Special bullets being smaller in diameter, the original bullets for the ..38 short and long Colt were the same diameter as the case, about .379", and the bore was the same. Later loadings used an inside lubricated bullet of .357" diameter, with a hollow base, and that seems to have shot well enough for the military of the day. I believe that the difference between the .38 S&W and the .38 Special is only 0.004" inch, so they would probably shoot OK in the larger bore.

__________________
Tom
1560

I seem to recall that someone (this lawyer perhaps) paid Marina for the rights to own the gun. Later the US Government demanded it and paid, I believe $400. I think the lawyer was able to get more at a later date, but if the story is true the government screwed him, that gun would probably be worth several million $ today. I think the Colt Cobra Jack Ruby shot Oswald with was sold some time ago.

__________________
Luke 22:36

That gun, a modified 38/200 was my 1st ever gun show buy. I knew nothing about it but thought it was really cool and had to be worth a fortune. I showcased it the day I joined the forum or soon after and was chastised for buying something I knew nothing about and it wasn't even a gun one would want what with it's hack & ream job and general provenance. I was kind of insulted but..that day I bought my 1st copy of the SCSW from Amazon and vowed I would not be ignorant about a S&W purchase again. That catalog and this forum have taught me enormously. I will never get rid of it as it is a good reminder to know what you are buying.

__________________
John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

OK, never saw that.
Then it would blow out the whole case evenly!

I've had a pair of the hack & ream jobs, but I paid nearly nothing for them. I had my fun and moved on. And for someone who wants only a revolver that shoots for use as a truck or bedside gun, they are very good for such purposes. My problem is those I see at gun shows with $500 price tags on them with a phony story to go along with them, meant to attract the un-knowing suckers. I've heard lots of phony stories.

Yes, that is sad to see.

My favorite pawn shop has a couple of the nickled and bobbed 38/200's with the fake plastic MOP or Stag grips in the display case for close to $400. I think they keep them out as a kind of sucker litmus test. At least they don't throw out the BS stories to try and make the sale.

They occasionally have some decent older Smiths and Colts for reasonable, but not give-away, prices. I picked up a nice early post-war Terrier for a good price there a couple of years ago.

I think I just bought one of these at an auction recently. I was ignorant of the whole conversion thing and the gun was described as a Victory model cut to 2", nickled and in .38 spl. Indeed, it is a .38/200 to .38 S&W Special conversion with somewhat nice black laminate grips. Serial # 466XXX

At 10 yards it shot about 2" offhand so I am OK with it. The case bulges are interesting and clearly evidence the conversion.

Attached Images

S&W Victory right.jpg (73.3 KB, 98 views)

If the price is right, you've got yourself a K-frame snubby "shooter" (which is another gap in my collection). Unfortunately the price is usually nowhere close to realistic.

I paid $250, however, you are right, it is a good shooter and a fun range toy.

You didn't hurt yourself too badly at $250.