WWI Era "No-Logo" Revolvers

bmcgilvray · #1 03-01-2011, 05:36 PM

Apparently Smith & Wesson revolvers went without the characteristic entwined S&W logo for a relatively short period of time around World War I. Reading cuzinbruce's thread (Old M&P followed me home - DOB anyone?) where he shows the Forum his nice, newly acquired 4-inch round butt Military & Police has made me curious about this.

His revolver's serial number is 274XXX and has the logo roll marked onto the side plate. I have No. 296XXX in the same configuration as his revolver but without any logo.

I also have a Model 1903 .32 Hand Ejector, serial number 277XXX, which doesn't feature the logo. I used to have a Model 1903 with a slightly lower serial number that had the logo on its side plate.

Later, the smaller rendition of the logo migrated to the left side of the frame sometime after World War I where it stayed for a decade or so.

Does anyone have any notion of the time period for which logos were deleted or of serial number ranges where logos will not be found on the various frame sizes?

Was there a pattern? May logos be found on either side or not at all on Smith & Wesson revolvers of this area, and with no correlation to serial number sequence? Or does there appear to be a distinct serial number range that features differences in logo location or deletion?

Who has examples of World War I era Smith & Wesson revolvers without logos that they could show? Who has the one with the lowest serial number not featuring the logo and who has the one with the highest serial number without the logo?

j38 · #2 03-02-2011, 12:58 AM

Bryan,

Interesting question - which has come up occasionally. Either, I forgot the answer - or never did read it in the first place. You do have a couple of beauties there - even if they are missing their logos, ... and I would dearly love to run across a round butt revolver like that .38 special of yours!

Best Regards,

Jerry

handejector · #3 03-02-2011, 10:37 AM

I believe the years for "No-Logo" guns is 1917-1920/21.

We see large logos on the Brit contract 455's thru late 1916. We see logos on the large batch of 455 TL's built in late 1916 to clean up parts and sold commercially.
Production started on the 1917 in March,17, and they have no logos. S&W was constantly hounded for more production by the Gov't. Eventually, using the possibility of Bolshevik inspired labor problems, the Gov't seized the factory in Aug, 18. The machine for rolling logos had long been inactive by then, and POSSIBLY converted to some other use or pushed into a corner and buried. S&W does not get control again till Jan, 1919. We see little and slow production thru most of 1919. It gets better in 1920. Guns shipped in 1919 and 1920 usually lack logos. Some guns shipped in 1921 MAY lack them.

bmcgilvray · #4 03-02-2011, 11:26 AM

Hi Jerry;

You need a round butt K-Frame gun. I have large hands with long fingers and I still really like the way these guns handle. Great for double action shooting. Now that little .32 is just too small for me to shoot well.

Hey, thanks Lee! So "no-logo" continued for several years beyond World War I. It is reasonable to assume that the deletion of the logo had something to do with WWI production efforts.

One also assumes that the entire production was devoted to the government contract M1917 with the possible exception of finishing up commercial guns of all models that were already "in the pipe."

"Eventually, using the possibility of Bolshevik inspired labor problems, the Gov't seized the factory in Aug, 18."

This always seemed a bit sordid all the way around to me. I love reading history but don't know of another instance where the government seized a factory in quite such a manner. The "Red tide" was running high elsewhere in the world during that period and its effects were felt here in the U. S.. I didn't consider that it could have been behind Smith & Wesson's production difficulties which apparently were shameful. Even so, it would appear the government overstepped its bounds to seize control of a company like that. Maybe this incident is an early example of bending the law, like Clinton wanted to do, so that the Wilson administration could accomplish its aims.

twaits · #5 03-02-2011, 02:33 PM

I LOVE the second gun with the hard rubber grips. That is so nice!
I definitely need to find one of these early hand ejectors.

DCWilson · #6 02-25-2012, 11:55 PM

I have an early .38 Regulation Police (S/N 194, April 1917) with a large logo on the sideplate:

An equally early .32 RP (S/N 259152, May 1917) has no logo on either side of the frame.

This reprocessed .22/32 HFT (S/N 364316, October 1921) has both the small logo on the left side and the single-line address mark on the right-- but this gun was modified at the factory in 1946 and may have been re-marked when it was rebuilt as a Kit Gun and refinished.

A .38 M&P from March of 1922 (S/N 400078) has the small logo on the left and no address line on the right. I won't bother with pics because we are pretty far away from WWI by this time.

bananaman · #7 02-26-2012, 07:16 PM

My 1905, 4th was shipped in June of 1919.#2996xx. Of course, no logo, but it doesn't have an idenity crisis over it! Still shoot her! Bob

ces1 · #8 08-29-2016, 02:52 AM

I have a 1903HE 32SWL serial number 277898 without the logos.

gordonrick · #9 08-29-2016, 08:49 PM

I didn't letter either gun, but here are mine from 1919-ish.

.32 HE 3rd model, SN 299689 - 3 1/4" barrel, Nickel. Hard rubber stocks. No logo

.38 SPL M&P, SN 313625 - 4" barrel, Nickel. Recessed gold medallion stocks. No Logo

mrcvs · #10 07-10-2021, 02:22 PM

And here’s a .22LR Third Model Single Shot pistol that appears all original but no logo is present:

Smith & Wesson Perfected Target Pistol .22 lr |

Firearms & Military Artifacts

Firearms

Pistols

| Online Auctions | Proxibid

delcrossv · #11 07-10-2021, 10:31 PM

1918 M&P 291301

Two very early RP Targets w/o logos. 1917, 1919 ship dates
266260 for the 1917 one (.32 HE series)

hkcavalier · #12 07-11-2021, 01:52 AM

I have an M&P, 275520, shipped August 1917, with logo on the sideplate.

ol777gunnerz · #13 07-11-2021, 08:52 AM

Here is my no logo 22/32 which shipped in 1919, lettered shipped with the Reg. Police grips, they were out of the target grips, the bobbed hammer & knurled trigger were done by A O Niedner who was one of the premier gunsmiths of that era. It also has a factory stamp from being returned to the factory in 1922. This was in the Michael Petrov collection for over 20 yrs. until his untimely death, Michael authored 2 notable gunsmith books & was an A O Niedner collector.

Mbrgr1 · #14 07-11-2021, 12:14 PM

Not often one gets to use the same gun in adjoining threads!

My no logo 1919 shipped in June.

bill-in-texas · #15 07-11-2021, 01:35 PM

My example from this era shipped to Edward K. Tryon Hardware in Philadelphia in April, 1919… No logo; no “Made in USA.”

-Bill

mrcvs · #16 07-11-2021, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill-in-texas

My example from this era shipped to Edward K. Tryon Hardware in Philadelphia in April, 1919… No logo; no “Made in USA”.

“Made in USA” wasn’t applied to Smith & Wesson revolvers until 1923.

mrcvs · #17 03-26-2022, 07:11 PM

We shall have to wait and see once this March 1919 shipped Single Shot Perfected Third Model revolver I purchased earlier today has the logo on the left side or not. Stay tuned.

erikpolcrack · #18 03-26-2022, 07:41 PM

I have a square-butt blued 5-inch 38 Special SN 305281 with no S&W logo.

Absalom · #19 03-26-2022, 08:11 PM

When this thread was started over ten years ago, the data situation was still quite a bit spottier than it is now.

There is no disagreement that logo stamping stopped in mid-1917 and resumed in early 1920.

Of course, stamping is concurrent with production, not shipping, so individual specimen showing a logo or no logo shipped outside those parameters are always possible.

raljr1 · #20 03-27-2022, 07:27 AM

My nickel M&P from November 1919 has no logo

My Regulation Police Target from January 1920 has no logo, but my RP target from August of 1921 does.

mrcvs · #21 04-16-2022, 08:43 PM

And, as expected, this Single Shot Perfected Third Model pistol, having shipped 13 March 1919, has no S & W logo on either side.

glowe · #22 04-17-2022, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

When this thread was started over ten years ago, the data situation was still quite a bit spottier than it is now.

There is no disagreement that logo stamping stopped in mid-1917 and resumed in early 1920.

This is the answer as far as my collection is concerned, but there will always be those who disagree. I can surround the issue pretty well because I concentrate on early HEs, but with ship dates, not manufacturing dates. My research does support the theory that private gun sales were very high as the war approached. After all, North America was watching WWI from the sidelines since 1914 and officially joined the effort in 1917.

My ship dates show logos in place until June 1917 and back in April 1920. It all depends on how long the guns sat in inventory before being sold. I have nothing between these examples with logos.

32 W.C.F. Target shipped March 1917 (logo)
22/32 HFT shipped May 1917 (logo)
S&Ws between June 1917 to March 1920 (no logos)
32 W.C.F. M&P shipped March 1920 (no logo)
32 RP shipped April 1920 below (logo).

DWalt · #23 04-17-2022, 03:45 PM

I don't have much detailed information about logo vs. no logo guns in my database, but the highest SN on my list of an M&P without a logo is 336927. Undated, but it probably shipped in April or May 1920 based just on that SN. The SN of the earliest post-WWI M&P I list as having a logo is 360812, also undated. So somewhere between must be the logo re-start, possibly in the 34xxxx-35xxxx SN range. Perhaps someone else can narrow the gap.

DWalt · #24 04-17-2022, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

“Made in USA” wasn’t applied to Smith & Wesson revolvers until 1923.

Actually a little earlier than that, more like early to mid-1922 at a SN around 406xxx (for an M&P).