Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Smith & Wesson Revolvers > S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961
o

Notices

S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-02-2011, 07:58 PM
greystonedog's Avatar
greystonedog greystonedog is offline
Member
K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Default K38 vs K22 production numbers

In 5 screws , how many were K38's vs K22's ???
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-02-2011, 08:59 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
SWCA Member
K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 5,499
Likes: 913
Liked 6,390 Times in 1,310 Posts
Default

That information is not known, nor is it easy to find out from the
shipping records. But - I'd guess probably 10 times as many K-38's
as K-22's . Perhaps a safer way to say it would be to say about
10 times as many .38 caliber K-frames as .22 caliber K-frames. This
way, the large number of .38 M&P's get counted, as I think they
should. We tend to think of K-38's as the target version, and .38 M&P's
as the fixed-sighted version. They are exactly the same gun, except
for the sights.

Another reason for my guess is that there was a very large LEO
market for the .38 caliber guns, but virtually none for the .22 caliber.
By and large, the .22's are for sports folks and small-caliber target
shooting; .38's fill a much larger non-M&P role.

Mike Priwer
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-02-2011, 09:17 PM
greystonedog's Avatar
greystonedog greystonedog is offline
Member
K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Seems like a glut of K22's (pre 17's primarily) for sale vs a lot fewer pre 14's yet the 22's are priced higher. Is the pre 14 relatively undervalued today?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-02-2011, 10:33 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
SWCA Member
K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 5,499
Likes: 913
Liked 6,390 Times in 1,310 Posts
Default

Could be several reasons for the apparent pricing discrepancy. If I've
guessed correctly, there ought to be far fewer .22's than .38's, and
that would have .22 prices higher. It could be condition; K-22's
generally don't ride around in the back of pickup trucks, but get
taken care of ; .38's get/got used for lots of different applications,
and maybe got rougher care. I know that lots of K-38's were service
weapons for LEO's .

As to pre-14's specifically being less than, say, pre-17's or pre-18's,
my guess is that pre-17's are harder to find in really good condition.
Personally, with the exception of collector interest in higher condition
guns, I don't think there ought to be much price variation in K-38's
until you get past 14-2's. From 14-3 forward, there were a lot made.

One thing I would not do is to try to arbitgrage what looks to be a
mis-priced K-38 variant ! If the prices really are low, you'd have to
assume that there are not a lot of interested buyers.

Mike Priwer
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-02-2011, 10:35 PM
Black_Talon's Avatar
Black_Talon Black_Talon is offline
Member
K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers  
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SoCal - SGV
Posts: 470
Likes: 280
Liked 130 Times in 49 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greystonedog View Post
Seems like a glut of K22's (pre 17's primarily) for sale vs a lot fewer pre 14's yet the 22's are priced higher.
I've noticed this same thing and wondered about it myself.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-03-2011, 10:32 AM
RdrBill's Avatar
RdrBill RdrBill is offline
US Veteran
K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 531
Likes: 2,233
Liked 4,538 Times in 804 Posts
Default

Sir.
I opened up my gun safe and counted them. The ratio is:
K22's 24
K38's 4.
Not very scientific, and only a random sample.
Bill@Yuma
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-03-2011, 12:35 PM
larryofcc larryofcc is offline
SWCA Member
K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers  
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Cedar City,Utah
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 5
Liked 2,976 Times in 824 Posts
Default

Glut of K-22's is correct. They are everywhere, cheap to very expensive. A quick look on the Internet gun sites shows us the fact that there are many, many, K-22's, and the pre M14's are seriously lacking. Especially the 1947 to 1949 or so standard bbl. type. The most obvious thing about the early pre 14 is the fact that as soon as the box was opened, the grips were taken off and thrown away. I have yet to see one with its original grips for sale, and believe me, I have been looking. I have two very nice K-22's and also a very nice pre M14, but I just cannot find the earlier standard bbl. revolver with matching grips. I am a purist collector. I don't mind a little wear, but I do like 100% matching specimens. BTW, at the rather large Reno gun show last August, almost all the tables had a K22 of various vintages, but there was only one M14 at the show, and it was a clunker. Big Larry
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-03-2011, 02:03 PM
Speedo2 Speedo2 is offline
Member
K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Western Phraudsylvania
Posts: 1,670
Likes: 836
Liked 1,237 Times in 449 Posts
Talking It's all Burg's fault!

Seems like pretty basic economics to me; as the going prices trended north of $500 per unit, more of them started coming out of the wood work. The supply and demand curves were also influenced by the recent surge in centerfire ammo prices (....well, ammo in general); 22LR's have become a lot more popular and K22's are pretty much the Cadillac of 22 handguns.

Now regarding the supply and demand curves, we here at the S&W Forum are at least partially responsible for the upward trend as well. An increasing awareness of how good those things are, because of our incessent chattering about them, has infected the otherwise unaware masses better than television advertising ever could. And I'll go so far as lay the blame squarely where it belongs: with Mr.Dick Burg! I think that his ramblings about the superiority of early post-war K22's are having dire consequences.

Either that, or Burg is currently flooding the market with his secret stash after having thoroughly brainwashed us all into this addiction. I dunno, he's pretty clever; some would even call him a smart feller (..or something like that). -S2

Last edited by Speedo2; 03-03-2011 at 02:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-05-2011, 10:13 AM
fyimo's Avatar
fyimo fyimo is offline
Member
K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 18,773
Likes: 6,048
Liked 5,762 Times in 1,992 Posts
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by greystonedog View Post
Seems like a glut of K22's (pre 17's primarily) for sale vs a lot fewer pre 14's yet the 22's are priced higher. Is the pre 14 relatively undervalued today?
K22's and model 17's are a very hot item in todays market because they are fun to shoot and the ammo is cheap and their prices have gone up roughly $200 in the past 18 months. People like the 6 inch barrel because it's usually a range or small game hunting revolver.

The K38 and model 14 are wonderful revolvers and to me they are under priced when compared to other S&W revolvers. I think this is caused by two things and one is that people want a 357 magnum instead of a 38 special only revolver and second most K38 have 6 inch barrels and most people wanting a 38 special revolver today want one with a 4 inch barrel.

Just my 2 cents worth and by the way I own 1 K22 and 1 K38 and they weigh and balance exactly the same.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-05-2011, 11:10 AM
dmar dmar is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,544
Likes: 3,089
Liked 2,923 Times in 1,066 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Larry View Post
Glut of K-22's is correct. They are everywhere, cheap to very expensive. A quick look on the Internet gun sites shows us the fact that there are many, many, K-22's, and the pre M14's are seriously lacking. Especially the 1947 to 1949 or so standard bbl. type. The most obvious thing about the early pre 14 is the fact that as soon as the box was opened, the grips were taken off and thrown away. I have yet to see one with its original grips for sale, and believe me, I have been looking. I have two very nice K-22's and also a very nice pre M14, but I just cannot find the earlier standard bbl. revolver with matching grips. I am a purist collector. I don't mind a little wear, but I do like 100% matching specimens. BTW, at the rather large Reno gun show last August, almost all the tables had a K22 of various vintages, but there was only one M14 at the show, and it was a clunker. Big Larry
I agree, finding early, original condition K38s is not easy. They are very rare to find in nice condition, with original grips. Here's a picture of the only one I have come across, of course, I had to buy it... It's a 1949 vintage, and in beautiful condition, no flaws, except for a slight turn line.

It's a very accurate revolver, right up there with my Colt Officers Model. I really do not understand why they are undervalued, the quality, and accuracy is top notch. I agree with the posts above, they are often beat up, mis-matched, or just not many out there much to get the kind of following that drives demand. This being said, I'm sure there's plenty of them out there, LNIB, in people's safes, it's just finding one... I've got a few nice K-17s, and had to have a matching K38!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg K38 Target Masterpiece (Pre Model 14).jpg (5.8 KB, 33 views)
__________________
NRA Life Member

Last edited by dmar; 03-05-2011 at 11:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-05-2011, 01:54 PM
DCWilson's Avatar
DCWilson DCWilson is offline
SWCA Member
K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers K38  vs  K22  production numbers  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,993
Likes: 4,998
Liked 7,681 Times in 2,618 Posts
Default

I'm going to look at this question more narrowly than Mike did and exclude the fixed-sight M&Ps. I agree that if you include them, the .38s have a big proportional advantage even if you exclude prewar and wartime production. But I don't think that was what the OP was asking. I think he was going after the proportions of the postwar adjustable-sight five-screw K-frames, and most of the responses seem to observe those boundaries.

Let's look at postwar K-series production by year on a round number basis. The highest serial number on a five-screw Masterpiece is around K240000, so we'll stop there. Understand that because of S&W shipping practices, guns with lower serial numbers may ship later than the year in which a higher closing serial number is reported. And these numbers may be off if the factory produced blocks of serial numbers out of sequence. (I have no idea whether they did or not, but I am presuming that such activity was possible.)

At the end of each year from 1947-1955, serial numbers had advanced to (roughly) the levels indicated:

1947: K11000
1948: K55000
1949: K80000
1950: K115000
1951: K130000
1952: K165000
1953: K200000
1954: K220000
1955: K240000 (stop)

Actual K-22 and K-38 production seems to have varied from year to year. In the late 1940s, .22s appear to outnumber .38s significantly, which only makes sense: the company had not produced any .22 since 1940, and there was pent-up demand that could be profitably addressed. There were lots of .38s around because of wartime production and continuing M&P production, and adjustable sight .38s as market segment would not have been a high-priority item. The company needed to train a larger segment of the public to want a .38 with higher quality sights. I believe that by early 1950, total postwar production of K-22 Masterpieces outnumbered K-38 Masterpieces by more than 50,000.

In the 1950s, K-38 production increased and in some years probably overtook K-22 production; but there is at least a crude balance between the two in the serial numbers I can see.

Because the K-22s had such a huge production advantage by late 1949, I suspect that by the end of the five-screw era there had still been more K-22s produced than K-38s. I'm just going to pull a number out of the blue and say the proportion between them is 55-45. If I'm wrong, I think I am being kind to the .38s; the real proportion may be closer 60-40 in favor of the .22s.

I'm trying to start an argument here.
__________________
David Wilson
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
22lr, 357 magnum, colt, k-22, k22, k38, m14, masterpiece, model 14, model 17, postwar, pre-17, prewar

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
686-4+ production numbers? AlHunt S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 0 02-15-2017 06:07 PM
Production numbers? lrrifleman S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 1 08-12-2016 07:35 PM
Production Numbers? csjones Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 2 01-16-2013 02:30 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:33 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)