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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 03-18-2011, 03:17 PM
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Default Pre-War Outdoorsman Short Action Pics Inside Edition

First off, I don’t want this to turn in to some kind of debate over
defacing vintage collectables, etc…When these type of experiments
were going on these were not collectable firearms. So, let us not go there.

I pulled the side plate for a few more pictures…As you can see, the original
hammer pivot stud was removed from the inside…BTW the threaded portion
below the thumb release remains intact and visiable from the outside of the frame.



I did not make it by the tool shop today to use the micro-scope nor the cordax
to measure the distance the hammer pivot pin was re-located, but looks to be about .060 on the X as well as the Y axis.



Also, note the insertion of the thrust bearing into the body of the hammer (extends out each side of hammer) to center
up it’s travel along the “raceway” within the frame. * Look closely at the side plate and you can see the ever so slight mark of contact. Pretty short arc of throw as well.





I learn somethin’ new everyday or remember something I had forgotten…
Jest wonder who dun it?

Su Amigo,
Dave
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Old 03-18-2011, 03:34 PM
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Wink Fascinating

Dave....Thanks for the photos of the work done to convert the gun to short throw. It fascinates me that the artisan/gunsmiths who did this made it all work. I guess it was cheaper or easier at that time to do all the handwork to convert than buy a new gun.

Today, anyone who even suggested such a project would have SP up their *** so fast telling them how stupid the idea was, it would never happen. Some of us just do things because we can!
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Old 03-18-2011, 03:35 PM
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Dave, I believe your short action work may have been done by J.D. Buchanan. I have seen a few that where done by King, and if I remember correctly their version was a little different. I think Buchanan use to advertise short action conversions in American Rifleman in the 1940's.

I hope this helps,

Tim.
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Old 03-18-2011, 03:41 PM
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Dave, thanks for the pics. Those are some of the most informative images I have run across in months.

I need to go tear open both a long action and short action revolver now to make my own dimension comparisons. I thought the short action moved the hammer stud up and forward 1/16", not up and back. I certain see now why the back of the lower hammer body had to be reconfigured, given the new pivot point. But this looks like it would make for a longer throw as I think of the hammer movement, not a shorter one. Clearly I need to think about this.
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Old 03-18-2011, 03:49 PM
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Very interesting revolver and exceptionally clean workmanship.
Great photos and explanation, Thanks!
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Old 03-18-2011, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S&WIowegan View Post
Dave....Thanks for the photos of the work done to convert the gun to short throw. It fascinates me that the artisan/gunsmiths who did this made it all work. I guess it was cheaper or easier at that time to do all the handwork to convert than buy a new gun.

Today, anyone who even suggested such a project would have SP up their *** so fast telling them how stupid the idea was, it would never happen. Some of us just do things because we can!
(Your not suggesting that this is outside SP's venue, are you now?)


One must remember, this "work" may have been before the birth of the factory short action as we know it today (post-war era).

So, very well could have been a little R & D in someone else's shop...Or not.

Su Amigo,
Dave
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Old 03-18-2011, 04:01 PM
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Dave, very interesting photos and explaination. Did you see this thread by one of our forum members who did the conversion himself? Twin Frankenstein K-frame .38 Snubbies
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Old 03-18-2011, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWilson View Post
Dave, thanks for the pics. Those are some of the most informative images I have run across in months.

I need to go tear open both a long action and short action revolver now to make my own dimension comparisons. I thought the short action moved the hammer stud up and forward 1/16", not up and back. I certain see now why the back of the lower hammer body had to be reconfigured, given the new pivot point. But this looks like it would make for a longer throw as I think of the hammer movement, not a shorter one. Clearly I need to think about this.

Well David,

I'm at a loss here as well...Might be magic

double click on pic for the vid


Ol' McGivern could've broke a land speed record with this'n
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Dave
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keith44spl View Post
Well David,

I'm at a loss here as well...Might be magic

double click on pic for the vid


Ol' McGivern could've broke a land speed record with this'n
Su Amigo,
Dave
Seeing is believing! Thanks for additional evidence.

I'll figure this out eventually. Clearly I just have wrong ideas in my head about the geometry of the situation.
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timb1 View Post
Dave, I believe your short action work may have been done by J.D. Buchanan. I have seen a few that where done by King, and if I remember correctly their version was a little different. I think Buchanan use to advertise short action conversions in American Rifleman in the 1940's.

I hope this helps,

Tim.


Tim,

Thanks for the lead....

Dave
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:26 PM
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The identifying evidence, which I had seen before, is the "notch"
on the rear of the hammer. Its not really a notch, but rather the
boundary of the re-contouring of the lower curved part of the back
of the hammer.

Relocating the hammer stud in this fashion causes two different
things to happen. One is that as the hammer now has a rearward
movement as it is cocked; ie, as it rotates it is also moving rearward.
The second is that, because of this rearward motion, it releases
earlier; ie, the double-action sear falls off the trigger sooner, and this
is what really gives it the shorter throw.

I would presume this was done before the factory developed the
short-throw action. King Gunsight was the one who pioneered the
larger adjustable sights, and the wider hammer spur - he called it
double-cockeyed. He, and/or perhaps others, developed the idea of
the shorter throw.

Even target stocks were not developed by the factory. Many of the
well-known shooters of the 1910's and 1920's were augmenting the
small relatively-narrow stocks with additional material. Ed McGivern
figured out that Kearserge was making a grip that fit his hand
properly, and thus developed the McGivern model Kearserge stock.

The LAPD were the real modern innovators of target stocks. Its
debateable who was first - it appears to have been Walter Stark, one
of the LAPF armorers. His deciples (sic?) like Farrant, Hogue, and
many others at LAPD really pushed the developement of target stocks.

We are all admirers of the factory, but a lot of the really innovative
ideas came from elsewhere.

Mike Priwer
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:56 PM
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Dave:

Thank you for the extra photos ! Great stuff and a real education for me!

Jerry
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:24 PM
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Mike, thanks for putting the movements into words. After thinking about Dave's video I suspected the sear had to have been releasing the hammer sooner than it would have in the unmodified condition, and your narrative nails that down for me.
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Old 03-19-2011, 12:34 AM
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Thanks all for a great post. I'm still wrestling with the geometry - I know I'm close! Mike, I especially appreciate the history behind the changes.

Best Regards,

Jerry
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Old 03-19-2011, 09:23 AM
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Well Boys,

Without getting’ into all that ol' geometry of compound angles and all them tangent theorems and such doin's used
along the the way to re-position the pivot point of the hammer's radial arc of travel.


Let just use Mike’s simplified answer and say when moving the center point upward and outward
on the x & y we give the DA a head start and hence a shorter lock time.

As my ol’ trig professor like to tell us boys, “Ya gotta keep that angler dangler perpendicular to the triangular…”

All I can say is, she shur nuff works, each and every time and that puts a Copenhagen smile on this ol’ cowboy’s face.

Su Amigo,
Dave
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Old 03-19-2011, 09:33 AM
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I never could understand the geomoetry of the actions like that with that type of work, all I know is that it appears that it is slicker than snot on a brass door knob. Like I said, perfect for taking out in the woods for game.
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Old 03-19-2011, 12:53 PM
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David, and others

The curved rear portion of the backside of the hammers is actually
the partial circumference of a circle, whose center is the hammer
stud. When the hammer is retracted, its rear surface flows smoothly
past the frame, and maintains a constant distance ( very small ) from
the frame edge.

With the hammer stud position moved, the "true" rotating circumference
of the rear of the hammer changes, and so it needs to be reground,
so that it can clear the frame edge. This was one of the changes to
that hammer, and that notch is the end of the re-contouring.

I referred to this as the hammer moving slightly rearward. Clearly
its rotating about its relocated stud, but that old semi-circular
grind on its backside will now impact the frame, as the hammer is
pulled backward, thus making it appear to be moving rearward.

Regards, Mike Priwer
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Old 03-19-2011, 01:05 PM
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Thanks Mike,

It looks like she was set up on a cutter grinder to preform that little task on the hammer clearance right there...
Cause she's sure nuff dead nuts all the way thru that little conundrum of an arc

I guess the sixty four dollar question is not so much how, but who dun it...

Su Amigo,
Dave
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Old 03-19-2011, 03:53 PM
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Dave

Indeed, that is the $64 question. Someone suggested Buchanan - I
guessed King.

Regards, Mike Priwer
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Old 03-19-2011, 07:34 PM
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Group:
I think King had a drop in short throw hammer kit.
I have a S&W King Super Target that had a short throw hammer before I bought it, someone switched it out it is now a long throw.
At one time this gun was owned by Ray B. and then it had a short throw hammer.
DBWesson
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Old 03-19-2011, 08:32 PM
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Larry

You are right. From the King catalog, Page 4 :

King Short Actions
The King system of Short Actions is now available for both
Smith & Wesson and Colt revolvers. Short actions including
adjusting trigger pull without changing position of hammer stud
Smith & Wesson $10
Colt $8.50

And again on page 12:

King Remodeling Department
We are also prepared to change all types of S&W revolvers to
short actions without changing the position of the hammer.

So -unless King had an earlier process ( than 1939 ) for short
actions, someone else did the work.

Regards, Mike Priwer
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Old 03-19-2011, 10:29 PM
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It is amazing the type of gun smithing involved in that type of conversion.
Thanks for the tread, it is very informative and offers another avenue for collectors.
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:09 PM
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There are a couple of other ideas that occur to me, vis-a-vis this
particular short-throw modification.

One is that the King catalog makes a point about their implementation
not requiring the hammer stud to be relocated. As a gun-smithing
shop, King was well-known for performing all sorts of modifications
to revolvers. It was 24/7 with them. So - here we have a modification
that does not require modification to that stud. This makes me think
that there were either other modifiers that did relocate the stud, or
perhaps King had an earlier modification that required relocation.

Two - anyone who owns a K-22 2nd model - from about 1940 - is
invited to look at the hammer. What you will see, on the rear semi-
circular curvature, is that same "notch" . The factory implementation
of a short-throw hammer did involve a relocation in the position of
the hammer stud. And, rather than redesign the hammer, they
used existing hammers and reground the rear contour.

Maybe the factory was copying the earlier implementations, while King
had come up with a different way to do it. I was also thinking , but
have no way to confirm this, that maybe Kings drop-in hammer also
required a different trigger. His advertising does not say this, but
clearly his modification would have changed something on the lower
end of the hammer, and that might have required a corresponding
change in the trigger.

Regards, Mike Priwer
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:54 PM
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Mike,

Very interesting thought...

As time permits, in the next day or two I'll
run this revolver by the shop and have a closer look inside.

Also, maybe a 'moving picture' of the double action cycle w/the side plate off
and the hammer/trigger position at full cock in the SA mode as well...

A closer inspection of the trigger may well be in order, as it has been re-caseharden as wellas the hammer.

What I find unique is the reliability of ignition with this short arc of DA throw.

I've personally fired this revolver a bunch a times, nary a hiccup.

Anyway, whoever did the engineering on this little deal sur' nuf' knew their oats.


Su Amigo,
Dave
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Old 03-21-2011, 02:55 PM
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[QUOTE=keith44spl;135879791]
Anyway, whoever did the engineering on this little deal sur' nuf' knew their oats. (quote)

No CAD system at work here.In looking at the disassembled pieces, it appdears that they relocated the hole for the hammer pin on both the frame and sideplate. Gotta have those two spot on. Also there is no hammer stud as on the original design, but a shaft that goes from frame to sideplate. Think that may be the reason for the "thrust bushing" in the hammer to keep it centered for maybe there was more play after the conversion and this was the solution.Or maybe this was their version of chafing bushings. Wonder what the "scrap hammer" box looked like before they got this right.? Of course, looking at the quality, probably got it right pretty quick. Nice gun whoever did it and was cutting edge in its day. Don'y ya wish you coul've sat on the stool next to the smith and watch him at work and fine tune this puppy and then test it.
Not easy not to covet.




Enjoy that fine piece of hardware and smile every time you pull the trigger on a true work of the gunsmithys art.

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Old 03-22-2011, 06:20 PM
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Mike:
You are right on.
I think King did the work before they had a drop in kit.
The kit must have included a trigger.
DBW
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:51 AM
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Interesting thread. I did a similar thing to repair a broken hammerstud on a Brazillian 45. The stud had snapped off flush so I eyeballed a center punch mark, chose a drill that just fit the hammer pivot hole and drilled in about .10. Then I cut the shank off the drill bit to use as a pin and dressed it for length until the sideplate would just seat. No change in geometry, no improvements, but got the gun back in action.
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Old 07-03-2011, 07:41 PM
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Steve, good to see a post from you again.

That's a really interesting conversion. The overlapping exposed hammer studs under the cylinder release make me want to reach for my stronger eyeglasses.

Thanks for the additional images of early short-action conversions.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:29 PM
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Good to see you back, Steve.

Ed
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Old 03-28-2015, 06:47 PM
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Resurrecting a great old thread here, it triggered something in the back of my head about a gun that I bought from a fellow member here because I liked the modified hammer. I realized something after watching this, the hammer hadn't just been modified, so had the action.

Here's the innards:



Should get a huge image if you click on it.

Here's a video of the action, compared to my other long action it's very different:


Given the short action work, do these initials mean anything to anyone?

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Old 04-12-2015, 10:54 AM
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The effort that folks went to back then amazes me when you consider the machining involved. Just think of what that conversion would costs to day if you went to like Cylinder and Slide to do it. Not cheap!
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Old 04-12-2015, 12:34 PM
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Almost two years ago, when this thread was already over two years old, I lucked into a very interesting revolver. It's a five-inch McGivern Outdoorsman with a short-throw conversion. I can't prove that it is the work of J.D. Buchanan, but the gun was shipped to Los Angeles and Buchanan was an LA gunsmith.

You can see the repositioned hammer stud exactly where it is in Dave's gun in the original post.




The hammer sits higher, so you have to ease the rounded rear surface to keep it from colliding with the frame.




It was also necessary to carve a tunnel for the hammer nose so it wouldn't collide with the frame when it fell.




But just to add a further attention-grabbing element to a specimen that was interesting enough already, look what's inscribed on the inner surface of the sideplate:



I don't for a moment believe this was a King conversion job because the King short action improvement seems to have been achieved with a drop-in hammer replacement. I suspect this is a gun that King bought for the business in order to have it around to show potential customers how much more complicated the Buchanan solution was than what they could achieve with a simple part swap. I'm still looking for evidence that would bolster that interpretation. So far, this is the only gun I have ever seen with King's name carved on an inner surface. If anybody knows of another, I would sure like to hear about it.

Here's the whole gun, which is as pretty in its totality as it is interesting in its components.

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Old 04-13-2015, 02:36 PM
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Great gun David! Did you know about the King inscription before you bought it or was it a pleasant surprise?
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Old 04-13-2015, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet View Post
Resurrecting a great old thread here, it triggered something in the back of my head about a gun that I bought from a fellow member here because I liked the modified hammer. I realized something after watching this, the hammer hadn't just been modified, so had the action.

Here's the innards:



Should get a huge image if you click on it.

Here's a video of the action, compared to my other long action it's very different:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP4N...ature=youtu.be

Given the short action work, do these initials mean anything to anyone?


Caleb,

I just watched your video. It appears in SA, the action is still "long" but in DA it appears "short" but almost too short. will it fire in DA? It seems like that would not be enough force.
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Old 04-13-2015, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boykinlp View Post
Great gun David! Did you know about the King inscription before you bought it or was it a pleasant surprise?
Thanks. I knew the gun was marked with King's company ID, but I wasn't sure how to think about it. I currently lean toward the interpretation I mentioned above, but it wouldn't cause me great pain to go in a different direction if contrary evidence turned up.

I'm in particular doubt about the 1941. That could be a year, of course, but it could also be some kind of job number.
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