Newly acquired .38 M&P Special

bigmacque · #1 03-11-2011, 09:25 PM

I don't know which forum this belongs in, as the reason for coming to this forum is to find out what gun I've got. It looks like a Model 10, but the box it came to me in is very old and the brochure contains some very old pictures. Not sure how old though, so here I am.

The number on the butt of the gun is 911XXX, the number on the crane, when I pop open the cylinder, is 51XXX. There are no alpha prefix's on the gun.

As soon as I figure out how to attach a pic I'll do that.

Thanks in advance for any and all information. This is my third S&W; the first handgun I bought is a Model 66 that I dearly love, and I rely heavily on my Sigma 9.

Art Doc · #2 03-11-2011, 09:42 PM

Is it a 6 shot cylinder? What caliber is stamped on the barrel?

If it's a K frame 38 it could be a Military & Police from the early part of the WW II. Could be a 38 Special made for domestic use (likely a 4" barrel) or a 38 S&W made for great Britain (usually a 5" barrel).

bigmacque · #3 03-12-2011, 02:13 PM

It's a K frame 6-shot, stamped with .38 on the barrel.

JP@AK · #4 03-13-2011, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigmacque

stamped with .38 on the barrel.

Yes, but .38 what? Does it say, 38 S&W Ctg? Or 38 S&W Special Ctg?

bigmacque · #5 03-14-2011, 09:35 PM

It's .38 S&W Special Ctg.

JP@AK · #6 03-15-2011, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigmacque

The number on the butt of the gun is 911XXX . . . There are no alpha prefix's on the gun.

Odd. Seems to me there should be an S in front of this number. You said it looks like a Model 10, by which I assume you meant it has a fixed rear sight. the 911xxx number seems to make it a post-war gun, but it would have had the internal changes made during the war and, I think, should have an S prefix.
I guess we'll have to wait until you can post some pictures.
Regards,
JP

bigmacque · #7 03-16-2011, 03:50 AM

Here's an attempt at a pic:

Masterpiece · #8 03-16-2011, 06:38 AM

bigmacque,
Your Revolver is what is referred to as a .38 M&P Model of 1905 4th Change. Also if I am seeing it right it looks to have a Lanyard Ring which possibly could put this into the Pre-Victory category as well. It looks to be in Exc. Condition!! Yearwise is really hard to lock down,but judging by the Grips I would say it's a Late Production Revolver in the Very Early 40's. Only a Research Letter from Roy will verify exactly when. If you remove the Grips there should be a Serial Number stamped into the backside of the Right Grip Panel that matches the Serial No. on the Butt. Posting some more photos will help to correctly identify it. It would also be nice to see some photos including the Box as well. As far as the Forum it's in it should be in the 1896-1961 Forum,but Lee or another moderator will probably move it when they see it. Great find by the way!!

pace40 · #9 03-16-2011, 07:39 AM

With that serial number, very possibly a USDSC contract gun. One of the Victory guys may know for sure. Certainly worth a letter in that condition. Nice find.

bigmacque · #10 03-16-2011, 08:29 AM

I did remove the grips and found the same serial number on the right hand stock as the one found on the bottom of the butt. I'll take more pictures -- the more I hear from you guys the more excited I get -- but while a picture may be worth a thousand words, no picture can describe the condition this gun is in. It doesn't look like it ever went back to the range after the first box of ammo went through it.

Pardon my ignorance, what is USDSC? I don't think you meant United States Dance Show, which is the best thing Google came up with.

pace40 · #11 03-16-2011, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigmacque

Pardon my ignorance, what is USDSC? I don't think you meant United States Dance Show, which is the best thing Google came up with.

United States Defense Supply Corporation. This group contracted directly with S&W and Colt during WWII to provide civilian needed 38s. Usually going to plants involved in the war effort for security or stateside law enforcement agencies. I shot a note to ordinanceguy to stop in on this thread. He is one in the know.

Masterpiece · #12 03-16-2011, 09:55 AM

I checked my Springfield Research Data,but couldn't find too many revolvers in this Serial Number Range or their Shipping Destinations. I'm sure if ordnanceguy replies to the thread he'll surely have some answers for you. Could you post a photo of the Shipping Box it came in? This may help us as well in narrowing down the period it was shipped.

bigmacque · #13 03-16-2011, 10:03 AM

I'll take some more pictures and a picture of the box tonight and get those posted.

I really appreciate all the comments. I was told you guys were friendly over here, now I know it. Thanks for the help.

Engine49guy · #14 03-16-2011, 12:15 PM

Congrats on your new S&W.

I recently stumbled into a 5" model with a serial 844,400,
Mine is just a little older but similar without an S serial or Victory prefix with lanyard loop.

The members here provided me with alot of interesting information.

Here is a link to the post .
No V Victory

Cheers

ordnanceguy · #15 03-16-2011, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigmacque

Thanks in advance for any and all information.

Hello Big

That is a very nice example. As Pace40 suggested it may well be one of the pre-Victory guns shipped under DSC authorization. Only a factory letter can tell you that to an absolute certainty, but with the complete serial number I could probably make an educated guess for you based on the information in the Victory Model Database.

Send me a PM or post here with the complete serial number and I will be able to the estimate the ship date and whether it is likely a DSC gun. (Frankly, it is in such nice shape that it looks like it has been sitting in a vault somewhere for the past 70 years.)

JP@AK · #16 03-16-2011, 08:34 PM

bigmacque
VERY nice .38 HE! Thanks for sharing the pic. You have done well in acquiring this revolver.
JP

bigmacque · #17 03-17-2011, 05:38 AM

A few more attempts at pics:

Masterpiece · #18 03-17-2011, 06:38 AM

Well the Box & Paperwork are definitely Period Correct even though I see the Box does have some condition problems!! Does the Box have a Serial No. written on the bottom in Grease Pencil? If it matches as well you've got a "Killer" Revolver on your hands!! I couldn't tell from the Original Photo just how nice of condition this was in. Now I can see it doesn't even look to have a Turn Line on the Cylinder. Also judging by the S&W Logo Stamping it sure hasn't been refinished!! It's hard to believe it survived so long in this Pristine Condition!! You definitely have to get this "Lettered" to find out where it went!! If it turns out to be a Police or Military Destination it will surely be a big boost to it's value. Not saying it isn't valuable as a Super Nice Condition 4th Change 1905 M&P. Alot of collectors of these have searched a long time to find this fine of an example. Keep us posted if you decide to get it "Lettered"!! It will be very interesting to see where it went.

Masterpiece · #19 03-17-2011, 08:02 AM

bigmacque,
I keep forgeting to ask,but I know everyone here is dying to know!! Where,When & How did you stumble across your Revolver?? Please don't tell us it's another one of those "Florida Pawn Shop" acquisitions we've heard so much about!! If so,I think everyone should go to Florida and clean out all the Pawn Shops & Second-Hand Shops so these Revolvers all get into collectors hands!! You didn't "Steal" it did you?? Ha!Ha!

bigmacque · #20 03-17-2011, 08:37 AM

Recently hired a new employee, and in discussions around the office she realized I enjoy my shooting irons very much. She broached the subject: her mom had a gun or two in her closet, left over from her dad's passing away six years ago, that mom just did not want laying around the house, especially since my new charge's 10 year old son tends to be at grandma's a lot. So she asked me if I wanted them.

Well, duh.

She gave this and a H&R Arms Sportsman's Model 999, from the serial number on that it was made in 1969. The condition of the H&R says it was used a bit more than this one.

She has no details at all of her father's acquisition of this gun, just that she wanted to get rid of it. She was willing to give them to me, but after seeing this I couldn't just take it, so we've made a deal.

It didn't occur to me to look on the bottom of the box, but there it is: the full matching serial number. How do you guys know all these details?

Masterpiece · #21 03-17-2011, 10:17 AM

bigmacque,
Well I guess I'll answer your last question first!! Years & years of collecting S&W's teaches you to look for every detail!!

Secondly,I'm glad to hear it wasn't another Florida Pawn Shop Story!! I've been through a few of these over the years and came up empty!! Maybe everyone who retires to Florida now takes their gun collections with them. That way when they need a few bucks they just take a few to the local pawn shop to cash them in!!

Lastly,I wish someone I knew looked in their closet one day and said "I guess I'll see if anyone at the office could use these"!! Well at least you're the one she thought of!! Good for you!! Now since you got such a great deal,by the sounds of things,you can afford to get Roy to "Letter" it & find the rest of the goodies for in the Box!!

P.S.,
Don't forget to send a PM to Charlie Flick (ordnance guy) with the Full Serial Number of your Revolver so he can check his Victory Database & maybe he'll come up with some more information for you. He lives in Florida as well and maybe if you two aren't too far apart & he has any questions you could meet to show it to him. Just a thought!!

bigmacque · #22 03-17-2011, 12:49 PM

Just out of curiousity, any idea how long it takes for Roy Jinks to work his magic?

He does have a cool job though!

Given what I've learned so far, I seriously doubt this one will ever leave my collection ... at least as long as I'm able to maintain it.

Thanks again for all the info received.

ordnanceguy · #23 03-17-2011, 01:45 PM

Big:

Thanks for your PM providing me with the complete serial number on your nice revolver. That makes it easier. With that information I consulted the Victory Model Database, which my pal LWCmdr45 and I maintain, and found that the four inch .38 Special guns in your serial range were being shipped in the January-February, 1942 time frame.

My expectation is that your revolver will likely letter as having been shipped to the Defense Supplies Corporation at Washington, DC. Most of the guns in this range letter in that fashion. Later on the DSC guns are recorded in the factory records as shipping directly to the ultimate users. Those were typically civilian law enforcement agencies, defense plants, public utilities and other facilities that had an arguable need for scarce sidearms.

I hope that when you get your factory letter you will let us know what it says. That kind of information allows us to continually refine the Database to broaden the body of knowledge on these interesting guns.

Masterpiece · #24 03-17-2011, 05:06 PM

bigmacque,
See,I told you Charlie would help you out!! As far as a Letter I think I've been hearing it takes approx. a month,but that's not etched in stone!! I haven't requested one in quite a while so I can't say for sure. When you're ready type in "Factory Letter Request" in Search & about half way down the first page there is a Thread concerning Factory Letters & it will direct you to a link to print out a Request Form to send to Roy. I always found it simpler that way. Make sure you give him all the info Barrel Length,Caliber,Serial No.,Etc. The more info you send the better I've always found. Maybe someone here might even chime in and give you the direct link without doing the search. Good Luck & glad we've been of some help!!

bigmacque · #25 03-17-2011, 09:50 PM

Charlie, thanks so much. I will definitely keep you all posted as soon as I know.

Thanksagain.

bigmacque · #26 03-18-2011, 07:05 AM

Just an additional note: when I sent my form, I added my model 66 just for kicks. I'm hoping that's not really anything special -- because the Model 66 truly was a Florida pawn shop find!

Masterpiece · #27 03-18-2011, 07:14 AM

Hi bigmacque,
I knew you had a "Florida Pawn Shop" Revolver around there somewhere!! Ha!Ha! I think every collector in Florida has at least one!! Can't wait to hear the results of your Pre-Victory Letter!!

Masterpiece

bigmacque · #28 04-14-2011, 07:48 AM

Got my letter! And it's some really good news .... I'm going to do a little research and see if I can get acquainted with LtCol Cooke!

bigmacque · #29 04-14-2011, 07:50 AM

And the Model 66 that I asked about? It's okay, nothing special, but it is a very nice gun. The letter does note that the grips and the thumb button are different than what was shipped .... but it is a P&R model. So it's def worth the $250 I paid for it.

twaits · #30 04-14-2011, 08:52 AM

You should now do some research on D.I. Cooke. Was this by chance the gentleman that had passed away and left the two revolvers?

Masterpiece · #31 04-14-2011, 09:44 AM

bigmacque,

"Very" Interesting Letter!! Well,it looks as though you have something to work with as far as it's provenance & hopefully you'll be able to obtain some more interesting background with some research!! Keep us posted with anything else you may turn up in regards to Lt.Col. Cooke's Background.

Take Care & Good Luck!!

ordnanceguy · #32 04-14-2011, 10:41 AM

Big:

Congrats on getting such an interesting letter, and thanks for posting it as it helps us to refine the Victory Model Database. The estimate I gave you earlier of shipment in the January-February, 1942 time frame turned out to be pretty accurate, a reflection of how accurate the Database has become.

The good Colonel Cooke, whoever he was, must have been somebody with some juice, or his organization had some juice. Getting 18 revolvers authorized for shipment just 44 days after the Pearl Harbor attack means he must have had some type of very good reason to be getting these arms.

The address stated in the letter is rather odd: 514 PPC Building, Vermont Ave, Washington, DC. You will need to find out where the PPC Building was located on Vermont and then maybe you can learn who or what organization was located there in early 1942. Keep in mind that the shipping ledgers were hand-written so sometimes Roy has to struggle to interpret the handwriting. I say that only as a caution to encourage you to not be strictly bound by the way the address was stated in the letter. For example, it might turn out to have been "PPC Building, 514 Vermont Ave", or maybe it was the "PPG Building", etc.

Anyway, have fun tracking this guy down and keep us posted on what you come up with. Ain't history neat??

bigmacque · #33 04-14-2011, 10:50 AM

I do love history, Charlie, and I'm going to have fun with this. My cousin is the Chief Scientist at the National Archives and my son is a credentialed researcher at the Library of Congress, so I think I'll have some fun detailing this find.

The PPC building is the Public Policy Council Building, and it was located on Vermont Ave in 1942, so that's consistent. You'll definitely hear more from me as I dig out details.

Unfortunately, no, LtCol Cooke was not the deceased from whom I received this. So getting to how my employee's step-father got it will be the journey.

Thanks!

DCWilson · #34 04-14-2011, 11:05 AM

I consider that a jackpot letter, well worth the $50 you spent for it. The average letter can tell you a receiving agency, distributor, or hardware store, but it's rare to get a letter that identifies an individual recipient. Good on you!

There is an SSDI record for D.I. Cooke, 1896-1991, last residence Santa Barbara, CA. But of course the one you want could be indexed under his full given name, not just his initials.

It is possible to do conservation work on tattered boxes. The peeling red surface can be reattached with thin water-based glues and an artists brush. Busted corners can be reattached with fabric tape or archival paper on the inside corners; don't use pre-gummed patches. Get some good archival glue powder and mix your own. It helps to be able to slide your patch around and fit it carefully to its corner before pressing it into position.

That box, by the way is called a display box or patent box. S&W actually had a patent on that design. It was designed to stand open on a dealer's shelf so potential buyers could see the gun in its box.

Charlie, I think the address is "Room 514 PPC Building." Part is obscured by the modesty patch for the gun's full serial number