OK, since Big Daz UK has garnered interest on the Pre-Victory 38 S&Ws let me throw this batch out there. I picked up 691450 from my LGS about 6 weeks ago. Googling the U arrow stamp I came up with a post by LWCmdr45 that said..

"There are two basic categories of the S&W .38-200 British Service Revolver used by the South African forces: those that were ordered by South Africa directly from S&W (in fact, the first such order received by S&W) and those that were distributed through the Lend-Lease program.

The first category will all be pre-Victory Models with bright blue finish and checkered stocks, all with 4" barrels. The approximate SN ranges are 685xxx to 719xxx"

Two weeks later back to the same shop and there is 687614. you know I had to get it to go with the one I already had.
Two weeks later back to the same shop and there is 689351.
Second one made me say humm, third one freaked me out a little. Asked the owner where he had got the british service revolvers and he said different folks. OK freaky.
Here are some pics of the revolvers. Note: all 3 have wrong grips, all 3 have had the lanyard ring cut, 614 and 351 were apparently redirected to British use as 614 has BNP on the cylinder 351 has BNP on cylinder and frame along with the what I have seen refered to as the commercial proof and has been nickeled , 450 has the marking along the backstrap of the grip that seem to be S.A. correct markings.

Picture 018.jpg

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Sorry the pics aren't better but I was using my video camera
Larry

Excellent guns, i'll be following this thread with interest.

Big Daz, I thought you might like these .

Larry,

Very nice! I can't believe you lucked into THREE So. Africa Victory models!

If I remember correctly, South Africa placed 3 different orders for Victory revolvers. The first order was in February of 1940, well before the US involvement in WWII.

The 2nd order was placed in September of 1940 and the 3rd order was placed in June of 1941.

I'm aware of at least four shipments from this 1st order:

May 3, 1940 for 1200 guns
May 22, 1940 for 1400 guns
June 4, 1940 for (___?) guns
July 8, 1940 for (___?) guns

Here's s/n 686,338, shipped May 3, 1940, one of 1,200 guns. Even though it's original destination was South Africa, there's a strong possibility the shipment was diverted to England. The gun has British proofs marks and no Union of So. Africa stampings.




And also, s/n 707,445, shipped in September of 1940:

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Thats a really nice 'rig' you have there I really like the armoured crew holster you have, the writing on the cartridges looks german why is that?

Linda, does 707445 have a small triangle stamp below the hammer spring screw?
Larry

Thanks for the kind words!

As far as the cartridges go... no, actually they're from South Africa and is written in "Afrikaans".

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Larry, no triangle stamps..

Does yours?? Post some pics if you can.

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Ahh I see, were most South Afrikans decended from the Boers that were german in descent is that why the language is similiar.
And finally are you a girl, coz thats a really cool and rare thing to have over here, girls with guns.
Sorry for the bad grammer and going on but its 1am here and i'm just a little tired lol.
Forgot to say you are obviously a very good photographer that top photo of yours would look great on a book cover.

There are a bunch of nice revolvers on this thread. What are the odds of finding three in the same shop over a short period of time?

The Boers were Dutch, not German. However the two languages are similar. Years ago in my home area, Dutch was called Low German.

Don't want to hijack the thread, hope it continues.

Linda, Yes the S.A. (450) has an inverted triangle just above the bottom of the grip frame below the trigger spring screw. Tried to load picture but it would not load.
Larry

I have 803237 wich is South African marked and lettered as shipped to South Africa. It is a 5" barrel.

From what I have gathered reading other threads yours must have been from the third order South Africa placed. Seems all of the orders were for 4" but Smith filled the order with 5" guns.
Question, does yours have a number halfway down the grip backstrap or an inverted triangle on the front grip frame below the trigger spring screw? If you look at my pic of the S.A. U arrow and prop number there is a 32 below those and a triangle on the front. Haven't found out what those are denoting yet. Hopefully someone knows.
Larry

Afrikaans, once called Cape Dutch, evolved from Dutch and other input languages. The Dutch settled at what is now Cape Town (Kaap Stad) in 1652. Gov. Simon van der Stel grew the first wine grapes on his famous estate Constantia in 1655.

After the withdrawal of the Edict of Nantes in 1688, French Protestants, called Hugenots, fled France, often for Dutch-ruled South Africa. They added to the Boer gene pool. The well known actress Charlize Theron has a French last name. (I presume all here know that she is from South Africa originally. She made a very determined effort to learn English with a US accent for the sake of her film career.) Marais is another common South African name of French origin. ("Ma-RAY-uh")

Germans later also came to the Boer/ Afrikaaner populace. ("Boer" literally means. "farmer", although they aren't all farmers, of course.) But predominantly, the root language was Dutch, and the language also resembles modern Flemish.

About 60% of white South Africans are Afrikaans-speaking, the rest mainly British-derived. But I knew one South African consul who was from Italian stock.

Britain began settling South Africa in earnest about 1820. As the British took over, they passed laws that the Boers found oppressive, causing their Great Trek over the Drakensberg (Dragon's Tooth) mountain range in 1838.

They founded two nations there, across the Vaal River. These were the Transvaal Republic and the Orange Free State. It was these countries that went to war with the British from 1899-1902 in what was called the second Boer War. (The first was in about 1881; I'd have to check the date. It was a smaller conflict.)

I worked once briefly in the South African booth at the Texas State Fair assisting a local girl there who had had almost no briefing before her bosses took off for dinner. I had read a good deal about the country and written an article for the Dallas Morning News food section on South African wine. (They also have a well regarded industry in brandy, and in sherry. Their sherry is said to be the best ouside Spain, but I've never had any.)

I did this for two reasons: one, I wanted to get the phone number of the cute SMU student who was working the booth, and secondly, I was bitter about the liberal left US media demonizing South Africa to advance their planned political agenda there. Most American newsmen knew zip about that nation, other than that they didn't like apartheid. ("Apart-hood.")

Anyway, the guys from the Consulate came back, thanked me profusely for the help once they found that I actually knew their history rather well, and presented me with some Castle (brand) Lager and a subscription to a beautiful publication called, South African Panorama. I read that for years, enjoying it greatly. The subcription lasted longer than my relationship with the girl, who turned out to be pretty, but none too cerebral. Her interest in most things that intrigued me was quite limited, and I don't think we dated more than maybe three months. I hope she married someone who liked to discuss football. She did give me considerable insight into sorority activities, which was both interesting and a bit scary!

BTW, if you'll look late in the summer, you may be able to find South African oranges in your grocer. You can tell them by the little stickers on the oranges that read "Outspan" brand. This refers to the Boers "outspanning" their trek oxen in the days when they went north to found their new republics. Their wagons resembled those used by our own pioneers.

You may have heard of a couple of the early Boer leaders. One was Oom ("Uncle") Paul Kruger. His face is on the gold coin named for him: Krugerrand. Another was Field Marshal (also Prime Minister) Jan Smuts, who helped greatly to keep South Africa on the Allied side in WW II, although the sympathies of many of his fellow Arikaaners were with Germany, at least until Hitler ordered a square mile in Rotterdam bombed flat to avenge one of his favorite paratroop generals having been wounded by a Dutch sniper.

I've probably begun to bore most of you, but do read up on the Republic of South Africa and how it came to be where it now is. It is a fascinating journey through history.

If your library or used book store has novels by Laurens van der Post or Stuart Cloete (pronounced as "Clooty") read a few. Cloete wrote some about the Great Trek that were quite good; also at least one about the Boer War.

We now return you to your regular programming. But this stuff should interest those who collect small arms with South African provenance. BTW, one South African is a member here, and he has posted some good info on those .38-200 revolvers. (Hello, Peter, if you see this.)

Tot siens,
(bye for now)

T-Star

DRB, very nice looking... Did your letter say how many guns were in this shipment?

Thanks!

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

No other markings.

Thanks for the insight and history. TACC1

Just wanted to say thanks for going to the trouble of typing all that it was of great interest to me, and your wrist must be hurting now.
Some great new (to me ) info on this thread, will shut up now and watch and learn.

DAZ-

I'm glad to have helped. I think people should know that stuff.

BTW, when Churchill thought of organizing special raiding units to harry the Germans in 1940, he called them Commandos. That was after the very mobile units of Boers whom he had fought at the beginning of the century.

After the big battles like Spion Kop, Elandslaagte and such and the British relief of Ladysmith and Mafeking, the Boers dissolved from regular citizen armies and formed smaller raiding groups.The commando was (may still be) the basic citizen soldier unit liable to be called on to form up for quick military duty. They were supposed to maintain their own weapons and a certain amount of campaign food.

I think they were originally to protect their communities from the Zulu.

They made the Mauser rifle famous! (The M-95 7mm model)

How things change eh, the village of Spion Kop (UK) is just down the road from me, and if you ask the youth of today around here what a commando is they'll reply a lass with no underwear on.

Yeah, I heard that on the TV news about Pippa Middleton at the recent Royal wedding. Prince Harry was said to have investigated the matter, but it may just be a celebrity rumor.

Winston Churchill's exploits in South Africa are very interesting reading. However, Jan Smuts was not held in high regard in the area where I worked. South Africans are great people and I enjoyed my time there very much.

The letter says this " shipped from our factory on September 24th 1941, and delivered to British Purchasing commision, Capetown, South Africa."

No indication of the number in the shipment. I thought it very neat it lettered to South Africa. It will be 70 years old soon.

Though not a S&W, I do have one of the last Webley Mk VI's made from an SA shipment in the late 1930s. Dave_n

Dave-

What is the barrel length on this Webley? I ask because some were ordered from there that had four-inch barrels. This is said (on Gunboards) to have been because most holsters were for the MK IV and V guns with that length of barrel. Some had barrels that look to have been left over from MK V production, and others had the MK VI barrel, with the different front sight.

But I don't know if those orders were from police forces or the SA military, or both.

Can you post a photo of your gun? If it came with a holster, what sort?

Thanks,

T-Star

In Charles Pates book US handguns the secondary guns it says
that in the south african contracts the following were delivered
1st contract 8,800 4" 38/200
2nd contract 5,047 4" 38/200
3rd contract 7,500 5" 38/200

These .455 Webley Mk6's are in my top ten favourite guns I used to own a shooter (when we could own them working) and loved it, I would love to see your gun, I nearly bought one today but a minty Astra 600/43 beat it on price.

After an initial delivery of 500 this order was shipped in lots of 1000.

Peter

English old boy. Not British, and most certainly not Colonial!

However, I have been here for over 29 years and would not have my handgun collection if I still lived in Britain!

Your excellent potted history of SA is of course not quite up to date. There are now eleven official languages, of which nine are African languages, but in practice the language of business and government is very largely English.

Peter

Me again T-Star. The 200 4" barrel Mk VIs were for the South African Police and were marked S.A.P. on the RHS of the barrel lug. In the early 1960s they were transferred to the Prisons Department. Most had the SAP mark either neatly milled out or just over-stamped to obliterate it. Then G.D.P.S. (Bilingual Prisons Dept) was hand stamped/scratched on the back strap.

I say "most" because I have one that was definitely transferred to the prisons and still only has the SAP marking. Also another that has the SAP marking and also GDPS very neatly stamped on the RHS of the frame above the trigger.

Peter

Peter-

I read somewhere that there were/are two capitals, Cape Town and Pretoria. One for legislation, one for admin. Is that true?

I've met both Afrikaans and English speakers, but the Afrikaaners were all bilingual, to varying degrees. Of course, Laurens van der Post wrote in English, and was as fluent as any of us who speak it as our first language. Charlize Theron passes for American these days. In fact, I think she now has US citizenship. Pretty liberal views, though. She is an actress...even has an Academy Award for Best Actress.

How many guns can you own? I heard it was just ten, but is there a collectors' license that allows more, like in Brazil? But even ten is ten more than in the UK.

Are you familiar with the author Wilbur Smith? Is his citizenship British? He was born in what is now Zambia, but he and his wife have homes in London and near Cape Town, I believe. His recent books have avoided South African politics, probably prudently. Most post-apartheid books have been historical, but the new one, just out, is set in Somalia and the USA. (And at sea.) Just bought it, so can't say much that isn't on his site. www.wilbursmithbooks.com

I enjoy your posts here. Thanks so much for the info on those four-inch MK VI's. What do the SAP issue now? I've seen photos of the Beretta 92-derived gun made locally. I think it was called the Z-88.

T-Star

[QUOTE=Texas Star;136030218] I read somewhere that there were/are two capitals, Cape Town and Pretoria. One for legislation, one for admin. Is that true? [QUOTE]

Pretoria is the capital and is where all the Ministries are located. Cape Town is where Parliment is situated. Ministers and their staff move between the two. Bloemfontain (in the middle) is the seat of the Supreme Court.

[QUOTE] How many guns can you own? I heard it was just ten, but is there a collectors' license that allows more, like in Brazil? But even ten is ten more than in the UK.[QUOTE]

There have been several changes to the firearm legislation over the past 25 years or so. Under the current Firearms Control Act (control of legal guns, not illegal ones of course) the position is briefly as follows:

The man in the street may apply (not necessarily get) for up to 4 licences for occasional hunting or sports shooting, only one of which may be a handgun. Anyone may apply for a licence for a handgun or shotgun for self-defence, but then the 4 above is reduced to 3.

A dedicated hunter or sports shooter (active member of a police accredited association) may also apply for licences for dedicated hunting or sports shooting if he/she can sufficiently “motivate" (ie convince the police) the reason for wanting the firearm/s.

A collector who is a member of a police accredited collectors’ association may apply for licences for his collection. There is no limit on the number of licences, but all the firearms must fit in his collecting field or theme as approved by his association and be approved by that association. Regrettably the 4 gun limit on the man in the street has resulted in countless historic collectable firearms being surrendered for destruction.

[QUOTE]Are you familiar with the author Wilbur Smith?Yes, the Z88 has been the issue pistol for many years. However, the (State owned) manufacturer has now been closed down and the latest issues have been a current Beretta - not sure which model.

Cheers
Peter

Peter-

Thanks so much. Very informative!

T-Star

What a wonderfully informative, and enjoyable thread!!

I believe I have one of these on its way to me now. I'll be sure to share it on this thread when it arrives.

Came in today.....

sn# 685147

Lobo, Looks like yours was one of the ones that got rerouted. It looks like British proof marks on your cylinder. Does it an importers mark and has anyone tried to ream it out to 38 special?
Larry

Larry,

I checked it, and it has not been reamed to .38 special. It's still in its original .38 S&W chambering. Here's a link to a thread I started showing more details.

Pre-Victory model.....

When you say rerouted do you mean during the war or postwar as the BNP stamps were put on guns postwar prior to them being sold for export (so I have read)
Recently found out from my friend who originally bought my old pre victory for deactivation, that is came with 300 4" 38/200 victory's from PALESTINE what where they doing with them, had UK sold them to them