Want to Learn More About Hand Ejector Snubs (i-frames)

[SammyJoe]

Hello,
I am interested in acquiring a Smith 32 Hand Ejector Snub.
I have been fascinated by the i frames (32 snubs and i frame 38 spl snubs) since I saw one online about a year ago.

How common are these little 32S&W snubs?
How common are the i frame 38 SPLs?
What can they be had for price-wise?

Never had the shot at one so I presume they are fairly rare.

Any input is appreciated.
Thanks
-Sam

[Toyman]

The I frames can be found prices for the 32 used to be reasonable, 38 S&W was more. In todays market who knows all revolver prices have gone nuts.
If you look long enough and hard enough they are out there.
3 .32 hand ejectors

pre war 32 hand ejector

8 Terriers with 32 hand ejector in the middle.

[two-bit cowboy]

Hi Sam,

Here's a shot of I-frame .32 Hand Ejectors (round butts) and a few .32 Regulation Police (square butts) from the 1920s through the late 1950s.

The barrels range from 2", 3¼", 4¼" to 6". In the early '50s the fractional barrel lengths changed to 3" and 4".

Lots of choices and not really rare, but you don't see a large number offered for sale at any one time.

You said I-frame .38 Spl, but there is no such thing. The I-frame .38 is .38 S&W caliber, not .38 Special. Huge difference. The only small frame .38 Special is the J-frame with a longer cylinder.

I'm sure Hondo44 -- the I and J-frame guru -- will be along to share his wisdom and thoughts on the subject.

[Hondo44]

Bob is absolutely correct.

The .38 Spl was only offered in the J frames: the original "Baby" J (often mistaken for an I frame) and the Model of 1953 New J frame until the currently made J Magnum frame was introduced.

The only .38 Spl I frame you might find would be custom modified by having a J frame .38 Spl cyl shortened and installed in a .38 Terrier or .38 Regulation Police I frame for the ".38 S&W" cartridge, and suitable only for .38 Spl wadcutters.

The .32s were made in greater numbers and are usually easier to find. the ammo is likewise easier to find and they're more fun to shoot.

[Hondo44]

HISTORY:

The .32 Hand Ejector with round butt and its cartridge, the 32 S&W Long are both historical. The .32 HE is the first side swing out cylinder produced by S&W, built on the first I size frame, and introduced as the 1896 Model (1st Model) along with its new cartridge.

During the 32’s early period of production it's normal for all frame sizes, I, K & N to not have the TG screw. Including the 1st Model 32 hand Ejector, Model of 1896 and even the very earliest of N frames, the 1st Model 44 Spl also known as the triple lock.

It went thru several evolutionary changes until it became the 32 Hand Ejector 3rd model in 1917 when a sq butt version, with most common barrel length of 4 1/4", was introduced as the “.32 Regulation Police” beginning at ~ #258001 in the same serial range as the 32 HE. The 32 RP was not marked Regulation Police on the barrel like the 38 S&W RP was, reason unknown. In the late 19th century, it certainly was the official firearm of some police depts. But as the 20th century came and progressed, confidence as an adequate self defense cartridge waned.


Target models with adjustable rear sights were available with 6" barrels as well as very rare 4 1/4" barrels (including 196 with 4" barrels in 1957), and with 2 screw extended target stocks.

By 1920 the cyls received a heat treatment for additional strength as did all S&W revolvers.

The 3rd Model HEs and RPs had the 2nd type hammer safety block change ordered in 1925 to WW II.

Both were reintroduced after WW II in identical form except for the change to the much more fool proof post war sliding bar safety. They went thru more evolution in the 1950s, and in 1957 became the Model 30 w/round butt and the Model 31 for the Reg Police w/square butt, and finally in 1961 were upgraded to the slightly longer J size frame which added -1 to the model #s.

Eventually both versions were combined as just the Model 31 in 1976, until discontinued in 1991. Various iterations were later introduced using the 32 H&R Mag and/or the 327 Fed Mag, both of which will still shoot the 32 Long as well.

Any currently available 32 Long ammo in standard loadings is perfectly safe to shoot in your 32. You’ll be happy with its accuracy and light recoil.


Why isn’t the .32 Regulation Police Model barrel stamped Regulation Police like the .38/32 RP?

I have never found the answer to that. But based on so many other practices we observe by S&W, I can make an educated guess:

The .38 S&W I frame RP Hand Ejector was a brand new model when introduced in 1917. Since Smith did not offer a small concealable handgun of more lethal caliber like the .38 Special, this model was an attempt to fill that void. The RP name was important because in the common practice of S&W, it was an attempt to identify the intended market, like the 44 Military or the 38 M&P; a.k.a. marketing*.

This was not the case with the 32 model. In the late 19th century, it certainly was the official firearm of some police depts. But as the 20th century came and progressed, confidence as an adequate self defense cartridge waned.

Also the 32 had been around since 1896 and with the same barrels on their 1903 model as used in 1917 on the 32 RP model introduction. And the protocols for barrel stamping and the dies for barrel stamping of Cartridge and Patent/address were long established with many barrels in inventory.

Therefore I suspect S&W was not inclined to changing barrel stamping tools and protocol just for the 32 RP model when the new "star", the .38 S&W was the new offering. Also 1917 was already tumultuous times for S&W changing their production over to wartime contract building the 1917 Army model for WWI.

After WWII when 32 barrels were changed to new standard lengths with ribbed barrels, the precedent for not marking Regulation Police on the 32 RP models had long been set and once again a new "star", the .38 Chiefs Spl J frame was now cataloged for the police market.

*Follow the money: We recognize that at S&W it always came down to one priority; improving sales, and paramount to doing that, “marketing” played an important role.

32 Detailed Evolution

Many things seem puzzling with old guns. It takes a historically contemporary mind set and some historical knowledge to understand what seems very strange to us like an unlabeled cartridge on the 1st Model of 1896, in reality is quite normal especially for S&W back in the day. Because each gun was typically sized and chambered for only one cartridge, the caliber was expressed in the model name, and there was little need for a marking. Of course it will also shoot an earlier iteration of the 32 S&W Long which is the 32 S&W, retroactively labeled unofficially, the 32 short. The "Model 1896 32 Hand Ejector" came along at the tail end of that practice. The very next evolution of it, the Model 1903, was cartridge marked.

The .32 Hand Ejector and its cartridge, the 32 S&W Long are both historical milestones. The .32 HE is the first side swing out cylinder produced by S&W, built on the first I size frame, and introduced as the ".32 Hand Ejector Model 1896 (1st Model)" along with its new cartridge. Production of this model extended to serial #19,712.

Available barrel lengths were 3 ¼”, 4 ¼” and 6”. It went thru several evolutionary changes until it became the 32 HE 3rd model in 1917 when a sq butt version was introduced as the 32 Regulation Police beginning at ~ #258000 in the same serial range as the 32 HE. The more common barrel length for the RP is the 4 1/4".

Target models with adjustable sights were available with 6" barrels as well as very rare 4 1/4" barrels, and with 2 screw extended target stocks.

The 3rd Model had a hammer safety block added around 1919 used thru WW II. About ½ million were produced before WW II.

By 1920 the cyls received a heat treatment for additional strength as did all S&W revolvers.

Both were reintroduced after WW II in identical form except for the change to the much more fool proof post war sliding bar safety. The 2" barrel option was added at this time. They went thru more evolution in the 1950s, and in 1957 became the Model 30 w/round butt and the Model 31 w/square butt, and finally in 1961 were upgraded to the slightly longer J size frame with added -1 to the model #s.

Eventually both versions were combined as just the Model 31-1 in 1976, until discontinued in 1991. Various iterations were later introduced using the 32 H&R Mag and/or the 327 Fed Mag, both of which still use the 32 Long as well.

Any currently available 32 Long ammo in standard loadings is perfectly safe to shoot in your 32. You’ll be happy with its accuracy and light recoil.

[SammyJoe]

Toyman, Hondo & Two-Bit,
Thank you all for this great info. This is far more information given in just a few hours than I have been able to muster from countless hours online researching.

I thought there was an I frame 38spl but this proves there is not. This is precisely why I joined the forum, for those kind of enlightenments.

I think my next purchase will have to be an early I frame 32 snub. I have the model 30-1 snub but the I frame will be something far more sweet. Have been eyeballing those 32s ever since the release of The Irishman film. Such a cool little round and soo fun to shoot.

Thank you all for the info
-Sam

[Hondo44]

Here's a “nutshell” version of the “.38/32 Terrier” evolution which is applicable to all post war I frames with a few exceptions:

1. Pre War: Introduced in 1935 as a snubby barrel, rd grip version of the 38/32 Regulation Police. Flat mainspring and 6 screws.

2. Post War: Re-introduced in 1948 and known as the Post War Transitional Model.
A. Pre war post war: almost identical to pre war version including 6 screws, barrel and frame markings, and rd top Svc Grips, but with new sliding bar hammer block safety.
B. Pure post war; no patent dates on barrel, 4 line address on frame, some new post war parts, like Mini Magna grips.

3. Improved I frame: late 1951, 5 screws, coil mainspring replaced leaf spring, deletion of tension screw, the 6th screw, no overall size changes.
A. 1st version, rd sight
B. 2nd version ramp front sight with barrel rib, early 1952

4. Model of 1953 NEW I frame forging: 4 and 3 screws, longer, egg shaped trigger guard (deleted 5th screw), and 1/8” longer rd butt grip frame (same changes to the Model of 1953 J frame. Four screws until late 1955, when upper side plate screw (4th screw deleted). These are the Pre Model 32s. NOTE: screw numbering is different than K and N frame because of the order in which they were eliminated.

5. Designated Model 32 June of 1957, Model # stamping didn’t actually occur until 1958.

6. Designated the Model 32-1 Jan 1961, I frame eliminated, .38/32 built on J frame with extended cyl window/frame, and longer cyl.


The Post War I frames are the most convoluted and misunderstood of the S&W Hand Ejectors. Write ups in the SCSW eds. 1 thru 4 exhibit the confusion and lack of discoveries for these models. Although the 4th Ed. on page 144 is my clarification in detail, the I frame sections following it still have the old inaccuracies.

You can see my section in my commentaries here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/blog.php?u=134353
Although for some reason the commentary links are working sporadically much of the time.



.38/32 Terrier Improved I frames: EARLY version on left, LATE on right. The left gun shown is an Improved I frame, but an early version with round sight; NOT the later version with ramp sight and barrel rib shown on right, which is the ONLY Improved I frame that can be confused with a New I frame: both have the smaller, rounder trigger guard.
Photo by jcelect


See photos here:
38/32 terrier thread







S&W
Photo by SDH

[H Richard]

These are some I have accumulated over the years. This one is a transitional, I Frame size, but with coil mainspring. I believe called the 1st variation.


This one is an Improved I Frame.


This one is the 32 H E on the original J Frame.

[hardknocks]

Hi all
If you want a early I frame 2 inch barrel 32 long I believe that's harder to locate than a terrier 38.
Thers is one i seen for sale on gunboards forum (i do not know seller) they are not inexpensive from what i seen, but either is a early terrier.
My 32 i frame has the leaf mainspring and the trigger is impressive, this one is rarely seen in my online searches.
Good luck

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by H Richard

These are some I have accumulated over the years.

THIS ONE IS ACTUALLY AN IMPROVED I FRAME 1ST VARIATION (ROUND SIGHT):
This one is a transitional, I Frame size, but with coil mainspring. I believe called the 1st variation.


YES THIS ONE IS AN IMPROVED I FRAME, ALSO A 1ST VARIATION:
This one is an Improved I Frame.


THIS ONE IS ACTUALLY A MODEL OF 1953 NEW I FRAME (PRE MODEL 30). THE FIRST J FRAME IS THE MODEL 30-1 IN 1961:
This one is the 32 H E on the original J Frame.

[SammyJoe]

H Richard,
Those are three beautiful examples of the i frame through the years!
Thanks for sharing!
-Sam

[SammyJoe]

hardknocks,
That is what I was afraid of, they seem to be demanding a premium currently. I will have to keep my eye out for a deal!
Great looking guns you have, thanks for sharing!
-Sam

[SammyJoe]

Hondo,
The model of 1961 m.30-1 is what I have.
Love that gun, someone really took care of it before I got it and it is a fine little shooter.
-Sam

[sigp220.45]

Haha, I’m glad you mentioned The Irishman. I was also infected with the Terrier bug by the TV, but in my case it was 50 years ago during an episode of To Tell The Truth. The mystery guest was a police detective, and Bill Cullen asked all three what a Terrier was. Nobody knew (other than it was a dog), not even the real cop. Later Bill said his neighbor was a cop and he called his gun a Terrier.

This was enough to send little gun nut me to my dog eared Shooter’s Bible to look this fearsome beast up.

I finally found one mismarked as a Model 36 at a Tactical Timmy gunshop.

I love it. Its crazy how much smaller it feels in the hand than a J frame.

[WCCPHD]

Ladder 13 and were in a shop in NC on Wednesday and they had 14 I frame .32 revolvers. Some were early round trigger guard variants, some later types and a few three inch guns. I have never seen that many at one place at one time. (The shop also had 12 vintage Colt Detective Specials).

[SammyJoe]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

Haha, I’m glad you mentioned The Irishman. I was also infected with the Terrier bug by the TV, but in my case it was 50 years ago during an episode of To Tell The Truth. The mystery guest was a police detective, and Bill Cullen asked all three what a Terrier was. Nobody knew (other than it was a dog), not even the real cop. Later Bill said his neighbor was a cop and he called his gun a Terrier.

This was enough to send little gun nut me to my dog eared Shooter’s Bible to look this fearsome beast up.

I finally found one mismarked as a Model 36 at a Tactical Timmy gunshop.

I love it. Its crazy how much smaller it feels in the hand than a J frame.

Hello SigP220,
That is precisely what I find so cool about them. I am a huge fan of small revolvers, as you can probably tell.
Really want an i frame revolver.
-Sam

[SammyJoe]

Originally Posted by WCCPHD

Ladder 13 and were in a shop in NC on Wednesday and they had 14 I frame .32 revolvers. Some were early round trigger guard variants, some later types and a few three inch guns. I have never seen that many at one place at one time. (The shop also had 12 vintage Colt Detective Specials).

WCCPHD,
That is what I have just be told through a PM.
It is a few hours from me but I might just have to make it out there and give them a look. Would love to get a nice early model that was in decent shape.
Colt DSs are super cool, but from past personal experiences I probably couldn't afford a Colt. They are quite pricey.
Thanks for the heads up by the way!
-Sam