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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 07-21-2020, 12:04 PM
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Default Old M&P w/ Checkered Trigger & Front/Backstraps (Update: Letter Arrived!)

It's been a while since I bought anything, but this one had to come home with me.

I am hopeful it will letter fun. Given the obvious factory checkering work I expect it was at least a custom order.

There are no service department markings on the gun however.

Mostly original honest condition, but someone put some sort of weird black rubber/gum stuff on the front sight to black it up good. Not sure if it will come off easily or not.

In any case, you are the only guys on the planet who can understand why such a plain gun can be so exciting to a fellow like me.









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Old 07-21-2020, 12:19 PM
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That's a neat one! Looking forward to letter info.
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:43 PM
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Hello Sixgun ! I really really like that one, bet its factory, not that it really matters because you have another that spoke to you.
Wouldn't be surprised if something different is under that black gunk.
More photos please !
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:53 PM
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Caleb,

I would almost bet that is a cop gun. I'm glad that you were able to take it home.

Please keep us updated when Roy comes through.
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:53 PM
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You had me at checkered grip straps... then I looked at the grips themselves. WOW, just wow! What a beautiful set of grips there. I can't believe their condition when compared to the gun itself. Do they number to the gun?

Froggie
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:54 PM
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That was a nice find. I would have to bought it if I had came across it too. The checkering is so nicely done it is either a special request done at the factory or a true professional did it. Will be interesting to see what the letter says about it. Thanks for sharing it with us.
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Old 07-21-2020, 01:26 PM
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I'd be astonished if the factory didn't do the the front/back strap. I am pretty sure someone on this forum even has a gun that letters with it, I can't for the life of me find the post though.

I have another gun with the checkering job done to it, documented to have been done by the service department: Half Target M&P, Update: Another Police Gun!

Done later, but also by hand, and a bit coarser. Still, that excellent hand checker job is absolutely something that S&W would do for you.

If anyone is curious, the S/N is 179920, which I think puts it at about that 1911-1912 timeframe, or thereabouts.

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Hello Sixgun ! I really really like that one, bet its factory, not that it really matters because you have another that spoke to you.
Wouldn't be surprised if something different is under that black gunk.
More photos please !
I removed the black gunk with my finger nail, nothing special under there sadly, just a regular half moon front sight.

I need to give you a ring here soon, and Tim, things have been pretty crazy lately with Covid.


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Originally Posted by SAFireman View Post
Caleb,

I would almost bet that is a cop gun. I'm glad that you were able to take it home.

Please keep us updated when Roy comes through.
Like that other half target I linked, I expect you are exactly right. You never really know, and it may not be something can be established with documents, but if any gun has a chance to do so it would be this one.

I will certainly update this post when I get my letter.

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You had me at checkered grip straps... then I looked at the grips themselves. WOW, just wow! What a beautiful set of grips there. I can't believe their condition when compared to the gun itself. Do they number to the gun?

Froggie
They absolutely do number to the gun. The pencil is still entirely present. I don't think the grips have been off the gun much if ever.

I should also note that when I took them off to checker I verified that there are no service department markings.

The grips themselves I think do have appropriate wear to the gun, they are a little worn down, not much. The thing is that the walnut they were using in this era was just gorgeous. I absolutely love so many of the grips that were using exceptional walnut right before WW1 and again right before WW2, when the walnut that got kind of used up with the wars.
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Old 07-21-2020, 01:47 PM
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Very nice. The 8" Target I recently bought has the same checkering on the trigger. It was a few years earlier than yours. I have been told that that style of checkering was done at the factory at special request, but have not found documentation of that fact.
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Old 07-21-2020, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet View Post
The thing is that the walnut they were using in this era was just gorgeous. I absolutely love so many of the grips that were using exceptional walnut right before WW1
It is Circassian walnut. I have a few early stocks (from before the Great War) that are made of it. It is nicer than the American walnut they used later. The pair you have here are particularly striking. I will post below pictures of a round butt pair I have on a .32-20 target.

Quote:
and again right before WW2, when the walnut that got kind of used up with the wars.
This may be correct, but I don't think I have seen any from that era that are Circassian walnut. I only own one gun (a .38-44) from the 1930s and a few from the 1920s. Those all have American (I think Black) walnut.


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Old 07-21-2020, 03:44 PM
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I’m not very knowledgeable on early 1905/1902 models but I noticed your barrel address is on the right hand side, like a 4” Triple Lock. Is that also a special feature or was that normal?
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Old 07-21-2020, 04:17 PM
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Hope this helps. I am pretty sure this MP Target letters with a checked trigger. It's a 1909 vintage. The backstrap is not checked.

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Old 07-21-2020, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier45 View Post
I’m not very knowledgeable on early 1905/1902 models but I noticed your barrel address is on the right hand side, like a 4” Triple Lock. Is that also a special feature or was that normal?
Normal on many early K frames. I believe it moved up top before the Great War. I don't recall the exact point at which this happened. Perhaps someone else here does. I have a few from before 1910, and I believe all of them have the patent information on the side. I would have to dig them out of the safe to check. If I recall correctly, it may have had something to do with barrel length.

Next time I'm in the safe, I will try to remember to check.
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Old 07-21-2020, 04:49 PM
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Super find! I really like the checking. The trigger and hammer still have great, vibrant case colors considering the loss of finish on the top of the backstrap.
Larry
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Old 07-21-2020, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP@AK View Post
Normal on many early K frames. I believe it moved up top before the Great War. I don't recall the exact point at which this happened. Perhaps someone else here does. I have a few from before 1910, and I believe all of them have the patent information on the side....
December 1913; still on the side of the barrel.


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Old 07-21-2020, 05:56 PM
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The circa 1932 S&W catalog pages list the stocks for the K-22 Outdoorsman and .38-44 Outdoorsman as being checkered Circassian walnut, while other models are simply listed as checkered walnut.
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Old 07-21-2020, 06:06 PM
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There is no way I could have passed that one up if I had seen it, a perfect example of "If this gun could talk".
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Old 07-21-2020, 06:17 PM
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Gorgeous!

I have no doubt in my mind the "checking" is all factory, especially the checkered factory trigger I've seen, the trigger "checking" always looks like yours.
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Old 07-21-2020, 06:36 PM
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I also vote for "factory" work. I'd have bought that one in an instant. With the checkering, the grips and the lettering on the barrel side it's a no brainer. I always wanted one with at least the trigger done like that. The backstrap is a bonus.

Roger
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Old 07-21-2020, 06:46 PM
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That gun is a shot right in the ten-ring of your collection. I love it.

Thanks for sharing,
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Old 07-22-2020, 09:01 AM
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I have a 1902 Target with lettered checked trigger and straps.

Regards,
Bruce
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Old 07-22-2020, 09:45 AM
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I have a 1902 Target with lettered checked trigger and straps.

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Bruce
Oh yeah, thats sure it. Sounds like the front strap is checkered. Does it have the little border around the strain screw too?
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Old 07-23-2020, 10:33 PM
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Nice find Caleb!!!
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Old 07-23-2020, 10:46 PM
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I like your taste in six-guns, sir! That one is a treasure.

Jerry
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Old 07-24-2020, 10:41 AM
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The patent date roll markings were moved to the right side of the barrel, for 4" guns only, at the inception of the 1902 1st change in 1903, at serial number 33804 of the .38 series, and serial number 9812 of the 32-20 series. This happened because of the change to the barrel and frame nose, making both larger to strengthen both pieces. The barrel was given a shoulder, and because of that, there was not enough room for the 4" roll marking die, between the new shoulder and the rear face of the front sight base.

This lasted at least until 1916, and possibly a year or two later. The highest .38 serial number I have seen, with the side roll marking, is 264130 of the .38 series.

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Old 05-06-2021, 08:39 PM
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The letter arrived. Interesting one:



I'm not certain why there was no invoice included (I'm assuming the invoices aren't available for guns this old with the SWHF?).

Given where the gun came from for me my best guess on Carl Engel is:



From Butte, bit south east of where the gun now resides in my possession.

Looking at this old Colt auction: Special Order Colt 1st Gen SAA Revolver with Montana Holster Rig | Rock Island Auction

With the same checkered back/front strap... I don't think there can be much doubt that this is the guy.

Looks like he ordered a few SAAs over the years:

Colt First Generation Single Action Army Revolver | Rock Island Auction

And there's another auction that I almost linked and realize it's live!

In any case, there are some excerpts here regarding Carl which may be interesting:

Quote:
Carl Engel (1871-1956) owned a successful sporting goods store in the lively mining town Butte, Montana that sponsored lots of local shooting events with the Butte Rod and Gun Club. He was also a member of the Scottish Rite Masons, later a deputy sheriff circa 1925-1931 during Prohibition, became an insurance agent after 1931 and resided in Reno, Nevada circa 1952 until his death in 1956.
Quote:
As explained in a research memo written by Waddy Colvert, Carl Engel (1871-1956) operated a sporting goods store in Butte, Montana, was a deputy sheriff circa 1925-1931, became an insurance agent after 1931 and resided in Reno, Nevada circa 1952 until his death in 1956. Copies of city directories related to Engel are included.
I suspect there may be a few more of his special order guns floating around this neck of the woods!
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Old 05-06-2021, 09:00 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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The SWHF indicated they don't have documents earlier than 1920 and must include invoices.
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Old 05-06-2021, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
The SWHF indicated they don't have documents earlier than 1920 and must include invoices.
I thought that was the case, I had just grown so accustomed to the luxury of an invoice with my letters

In any case, still a great letter. Although I am a little surprised it didn't confirm the Trigger + Front/Backstrap. Guessing that may not have been on the books, given there was also no address for Carl.
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Old 05-07-2021, 01:05 AM
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I wouldn't worry too much, my TL was done the same way and Roy thought it was done by the Service Department- although there's no records that far back.

See: Older Triplelock (Sock drawer gun?) Now with Letter
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Old 05-07-2021, 10:13 AM
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My money is on factory.
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