Roger's thread reminded me of this photo I took of a photo in a museum in West Texas. The quality of it is very bad and perhaps some one can find this shot elsewhere but it sure looks like Pancho Villa is shooting a TL.
Quien Sabe?.

Sure does look like it Tony....

Like you say it is a little blurry but that sure does look like a shrouded ejector rod housing don't it. Now THAT would make for some cool provenance.

Roger

My wife's grandfather was robbed at gunpoint by Villa during a train holdup. Too bad he passed in 1991 or we could ask him what pistol Villa used...

Doc I hope you got hear the story of that first hand.

I barely knew Frederico Fernandez. He was in his middle 80s and pretty senile by the time I started dating his granddaughter. He died at the age of 92.

He had a great story. Born in the Basque region of Spain he and a buddy wanted to come to America, California to be exact and grow grapes. Being dirt poor, they walked across Spain to the coast and sneaked on board a cargo ship. After three days at sea with no food or water they came out of hiding. The captain was pissed but fed them and then put them to work.

Imagine their surprise when the ship landed in Mexico instead of the U.S. They walked for days across Mexico headed for the west coast and on to California. They worked a few days used the money for train tickets. Out in the middle of nowhere a log barricade on the tracks stopped the train and Pancho Villa personally took Fred's pocket watch. It was all he had of value.

Fred made it to CA, and worked as a farmhand for years. He saved his money and bought 20 acres of grapes. He then married an Armenian girl named Victoria Kratlian. She and her family had fled the Turkish genocide. They had their first child in their 40s so they were old grandparents. They acquired more land and prospered to the point that when each of their grandchildren turned 21 he and his wife gave them $100,000 as a present. Yup, illegal immigrants making good.

I recall Victoria making homemade whiskey and drinking me under the kitchen table. She was the sweetest person who absolutely adored her first granddaughter (my wife) and we were heartbroken when she also died at 92.

I had always thought Villa carried an obscure automatic called a Charola. But although Mexican Revolutionaries carried them the only name that I could find was General J. Augustin Castro as having one.

When I was a boy my folks had some old friends and the old boy had been under black jack pershing and told me storys of tramping in mexico trying to catch poncho and never did. Another old friend at work many years ago told me his father was ponchos paymaster and accountant. Think he said originaly he was captured or kidnapped by poncho, was very well schooled so poncho used him as his paymaster etc! The guy I knew was "Sal Chavez" and was the oldest factory worker at lockheed palmdale when I retired in 2,000. He was in his mid 70s and refused to retire. Back in the early 60s when I first hired in there was another old mexican that told me he also was captured by villa and had to fight for him.

With all the Merwin & Hulberts that were sent below the border, it might also be a Merwin he's holding. Just a thought. Worked over picture to clear it up and is that an open top cylinder or not?
10/22.

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I pumped it all the way through 400% magnifcation, and still cant tell. Must be one or the other!

It's been said in many places he owned a Merwin, but also Colt SA and a Remington. Have not ever head he owned a Triple Lock.
10/22.

Villa's guns that recently (2007?) sold at auction were, I believe, a Remington 1873 and a Colt SAA. But with all the munitions shenanigans that were going on between Mexico, the U.S. and Germany, who knows? He certainly could have used a triple lock in some of his misadventures. Regardless, here's a link to an old (1971) article by Skeeter that describes Pancho's doings and some of the more illustrious others that were involved in that fandango:
Pancho Villa

After I read that, it occurs to me that things haven't changed all that much down on the boarder. -S2

Sir, the gun might not be his. "Hey, Pancho--check out my new gun! Wanna try it out?"

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

Ron, you may be right, but after much messing about with photo and looking at my Merwin, I've decided it is not a Merwin and does more closely resemble a S&W Triple Lock. At least it gave us more to talk about. Isn't that a rib above barrel? Front of frame is too blunt for a Merwin, which sweeps back much further and has a barrel release in bottom.
10/22.

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Pancho Villa owned many, many firearms during his career/life.

Growing up in Southern Colorado, not too far north of the New Mexico line, I knew several older Hispanic gentlemen who also looked like Poncho Villa. That picture may not be Poncho. Just sayin' Keep shootin'

I think I can read the serial number of the gun pictured It sure looks like #2510 which started life a a 6.5" barreled T-lock. But Pancho had a Kaboom and sent it in and had it repaired. Now it looks like this

thats my story and I am sticking with it

My Grandfather was in the Army back then and for a while was stationed in Brownsville, Texas as part of the effort to deal with Poncho Villa... He was on the Army's rifle and pistol shooting teams and won several awards for his accomplishments but old Poncho was too slippery for Grandpa... Later, Dave

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I didn't do it. Nobody saw me.

I think the gun in the photo is a 629 five inch. Must have been special order.

Ok, hit me.

Can anyone picture Villa's Colt SAA? I've seen photos in the past. It is nickled, maybe engraved, with ivory grips. 4.75-inch barrel.

I understand that it is authenticated.

I think it's a great pity that the Texas Rangers never got Villa in their sights. A certain Lt. Patton did gun down several of his minions with a Colt SAA much like Villa's.

Interesting photo & conjecture. The sombrero & clothing the shooter is wearing are of the Peon varirity. Not something Villa would have normally been attired in, as "image" was a very important factor to revolutionaries. However the rig is a "Pintado" beloved by vaqueros and Mexican dandys, and not usually seen on a Peon. The revolver could be a S&W, or a Spanish copy thereof. It's not a Merwin & Hulbert. I have a Colt Model 1861 .38 cartrige conversion, nickel, engraved, with Mexican Eagle carved Ivory stocks that belonged to Mr. Villa. His widow had a cottage industry for many years after Villa's assassination in 1923, of selling "Pancho's favorite gun" to unsuspecting tourists, and then resupplying her inventory with more guns from the local pawn shops. Ed.

I found the picture on Google. Interesting article too.

Villa rides again in frontier exhibit * Abilene Reporter-News

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I think Eagl 1 has nailed it and it sure does appear to be a TL.
Thank you Sir!

Great thread with interesting posts!

If anyone wants to read a fascinating account of the Punitive Expedition against Villa, I suggest "Chasing Villa" by COL Frank Thompkins. He led one of the columns that pursued Villa. It is a great look at the US Cavalry in the early twentieth century. Some of you that had family in the chase may really appreciate his Thompkins's book.

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Proud anachronism

Back when I was in my teens, there was an older man that worked at the local service station (yes, he pumped gas, checked oil, cleaned windshields, etc). I went into the station one day, wearing my Boy Scout sheath knife on my hip.

He told me that he was in the Army back in 1916 and that he learned to throw knives and bayonets, as the duty was mostly boring. There was a sheet of plywood in one of the bays and he proceeded to chunk my knife right where he said he would. This was about 50 years after his border service.

Sure wish I had asked more about his time in the Army.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I am pretty sure that is J Edgar's Registered Magnum......at least NOW we know what it looks like

I understand why you wished you had got more info. When I was young I knew an old man that was in the cavalry on the border after Pershing had to give up and he would tell stories of the Mexicans and the cavalry. I didn't write any of it down and now I really wished I had. The old mans guns amazed me. He only had 6 in. revolvers in either .38 spec. or .44 spec. and he had them hid everywhere around the house and barn. He carried everywhere and I never saw him use a holster. Larry

Hi my father is Sal Chavez and I'm happy to say that he is FINALLY retiring from Lockheed on Feb. 8, 2012 after 62 1/2 years and at 83 years old.

Impressive! Thanks for the post.

I think the gun is a Triple Lock. The frame just looks VERY S&W and .44 sized.

Check Villa's shoes, if this is him. Look pretty good for a peasant's..and he has a confident look about him, with a guy in a suit showing deference to him.

Well, the .44 Merwin Hulberts also came in the Top-Strap Frame style, following the earlier 'Open' Top...

But the underlug tended to be a little swoopy, compared to the more abrupt end of the S & W 'T-L'...

Now that I look again, unless Poncho Villa had especially large Hands, the Revolver in the image kind of looks a little small for a Triple-Lock.

Which would then invite the question, of "What else would be a little smaller, and, have an Under Lug?"


And the answer to which of courwse, would be, a .38 Cal. MH...


Wish we had a closer, clearer image!

What anita was reffering to was my post #8 on this thread. She googled her father and lockheed for info on his upcomeing retirement party storys and my mention of him showed up! We have shot back messages about him. Aint google and computers great?
Here is another poncho villa story. Of course I cant swear its true, all the same its the way that old man that was a friend of my folks told it to me when I was a boy in the late 40s. The old mans name was ray smith, from wisconsin, and I belive was a BIL to a aunt of dads and lived near us.
Ray was I belive in the infantry at the time villa raided columbus new mexico. Anyway he was under blackjack pershing and was in the outfit that chased villa in mexico. Of course they never caught up with poncho.
Ray claimed they had a indian scout who actualy did locate poncho in a cave sleeping. Of course poncho had his henchmen with him. The indian snuck up with all sleeping and claimed he stold ponchos rifle to prove he was there. Sounds unbeliveable, but I know ray belived the story!
Yeah, I know. David did the same thing to saul in the old testiment.
I also remember ray telling me about they marched so long and hard that in his words, "We would pull our boots and socks off, and the hyde would come off with em!"
I dont know if it was prior or after his army stint, but ray claimed he and a group of his buddys went on a almost year hunt and just haveing a adventure trip I belive in the Rockys and claimed they didnt see a road in the year! I remember ray showing several rifles, I belive they were a old springfield trapdoor and a krag.

A very good 76 year old friend of mine retired from the Connecticut Govenor's Horse Guard as a Major . He was very into the history of the unit and told me they were called up to chase Poncho also and the last time they were called up was for WW II .Most of his duty was parade's and Civic thing's.

It looks like Pancho is wearing a white suit-- something very much in keeping with Villa's "image"-- with the skirt of the jacket hiked up above the holster. Probably a TL though...

We had a man walk in the store a while back who wanted to sell us Poncho Villa's gun. The seller was not knowledgeable about guns and had purchased the gun as a speculative investment. I don't recall all the details but the gun was a revolver of some type but the fancy certificate of authenticity was for a rifle. Perhaps the seller had grabbed the certificate from the wrong pile in the process of skinning the man. No amount of explanation could convince the man the gun referenced in the certificate was not the one he brought in or that it was not Pancho's gun.

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John. SWCA #1586