There is one more mark on the .38 S&W I pictured, in the earlier
thread. In addition to the proof mark "P" on the butt, there is a "0"
on the flat under the barrel, on the far left end of the flat. Here is a
picture of it :



For some reason, I'm thinking that this is some kind of service
department marking, perhaps something like a replaced barrel ?
Does anyone know what this "0" means ? On the grip frame, there is
a "B" ( not a fitters mark ) indicating a blue gun, but next to the "B" is
a "0" , as in "B 0" . Its the same "0" that is under the barrel.

Thanks for any comments, Mike Priwer

Gads! If Mike doesn't know this, how is anyone else expected to? Roy, maybe . . .
Mike - I didn't think there was anything about Smiths you didn't already know.
Wish I could help you with this one, but I don't know either.
JP

JP

I suspect Ed Cornett knows, and perhaps others. I'll ask Roy, of course.
I know it has a meaning, and I'm thinking that I knew this, at one
time.

If I'm right about what I think it is, then I guess I know everything,
after all. If I'm wrong, then I guess I don't !

Regards, Mike Priwer

Hello Again, Mike:

I don't know what those "O" or "BO" markings signify. Indeed, I don't think anyone knows. They appear on these guns in the 700,000 range. Author/Researcher/SWCA Member Charlie Pate in his famous US Handguns Book mentioned the mark at page 134 and stated "The "BO" under the right grip has not yet been explained." I think that is still the case.

My purely speculative guess, and it is only a guess, would be that BO stands for "British Order" since the only guns that I have seen with that mark are those that were purchased by the British Purchasing Commission.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

I'm no expert on anything but I do know that wartime production guns can carry a myriad of inspector's stamps and production markings. Maybe somebody can specifically ID such markings but in most cases they don't mean much.

Although I confess it would be neat to have a gun inspected during WWII by Elmer Keith.

Roy suggests that the "0" might be the mark for a replacement or
reworked barrel at the time of original manufacture. This is what
I had thought that it was, and I think Roy mentioned that some time
ago. Its consistent with my expectation; if something did not work
out properly at the time of hard fitting, and they needed another
barrel, they would have had some mark, to indicate that another barrel
was replacing one already serial numbered to the gun. It seems
plausible , to me, that they would have marked the frame, in some
manner or other, to reflect this.

Charlie Flick (Ordnanceguy) had the following comment, about this idea:

" That sounds like a solid explanation for the barrel flat "O". First time I had heard that but it makes sense. Perhaps the gun had another barrel length on it and it was replaced so that the BPC order could be quickly filled. The Brits were in desperate shape in February, 1940. "

Before I had received this, I was looking at the pictures of this gun.
I sent Charlie the following comments:

"Do you know anything about the trajectory and recoil of the .38 S&W
ctg vs the .38 Special ? And particularly do you know anything about
the ammo that these BPC guns were going to use ? Ie, was it
standard .38 S&W, or was it something slightly different ?

The reason I ask this is that, in looking at the two pictures of that
gun, I notice that the front sight is very high. At least, that is what
it looks like, to me. It seems very high for a 6" gun.

If there is something different about the ammo the BPC guns were
using, vs .38 special, then there may have been some manufacturing
confusion that surfaced, from time to time. Presumably these
BPC guns were the same as production .38 M&P's, except for the
chambering. But suppose the factory realized that these guns also
needed a slightly higher front sight, because of the slightly different
ammo. Suppose further that, from time to time, the barrels being
fitted did not have the right front sight height. Ie, they got a wrong
batch of barrels on some of these BPC guns.

They would have figured this out during the test firing, and sent the
guns back for rework, probably to the service dept. The guns hadn't
been shipped yet, and they would have known how to fix the problem.
They get another barrel with the right front sight height, stamp it
with an "0", get it fitted, finished, and mounted. The "0" lets them
know what is going on.

This would be consistent with Roys suggestion about the meaning of
the "0", and it would be consistent with your observation of this
occuring in the 700,000 serial number range. "

Charlie wrote back the following:

"That is an interesting theory. I am not a ballistics guy but I do think there are significant differences ballistically between the .38 Special and the .38 S&W. The British actually used a cartridge that was slightly heavier, as I recall, than the .38 S&W. Pre-war it was the .38-200 but by the time the war arrived I think they had gone to a slightly lighter bullet. The latter bullet was, I think, still heavier than the .38 S&W. I am at work now so I do not have my research material handy.

Maybe a post on the Forum will elicit info from someone with more info than what I can offer at the moment. "

That is the reason for posting this exchange of ideas. Does anyone
have any information or comments about front sight height vs
38 Special and 38 S&W and 38/200 ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike, I posted a similar question in the SWCA section. Roy responded to me a little differently but the mark on my gun was more of an "O" and not a "0" if that makes sense. This was on a round butt 4th change M&P and the "O" mark was on all parts and grip frame of the gun.

I'm a newbie, so I may be missing something obvious to most of you but I'm curious about the ejector rod... Is the rabbet behind the knurling vintage? I thought it was related to id of left handed thread of rod/cylinder and a post war addition?
Regards

__________________
Regards,

Daniel

What was his response to you ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

Saxon Pig: Just by chance, I DO have an M1 carbine inspected by Elmer Keith. It was a CMP purchase and they didn't charge extra for it. I guess they missed it. I was really surprised when I lookd it up and realized what I had. Gloat, Gloat.....

Re the difference in front sights between the 38 Special and 38/200 weapons; The 38/200 had both a lower velocity and a longer barrel than a 38 Special; thus a longer barrel time. So when the bullet left the barrel it was pointed higher than a similiar weapon fired with the 38 Special factory load. Thus the 38/200 bullet would hit higher on the target. To compensate for this, the front sight would have to be higher on the 38/200s to enable them to shoot lower, to the point of aim.

He told me that the "O" represented work done at the "outside service department" that would work on guns that had been sent back to the factory. My understanding was that this outside department was opposed to the inside service department that worked on guns that had yet to be shipped.

Daniel

I had heard that - perhaps I read it in the posting on the S&WCA side.

Charlie Flick made an interesting point, about Feb 1940 being a very
difficult time for England. As he suggests, it seems possible that
unsold .38 Special M&P's were being retrofitted for .38 S&W. Maybe
that was overwhelming the inside service department, so they did all
the work in the outside service department. Maybe that is why the
the "0" shows up on these 1940 guns.

By the way, I don't know if that character is a zero "0" or the letter
"O" . One of the last three digits of the serial number of this gun
is a zero. In this next picture, I've preserved that digit, so you can
compare it to the leading "0" or "O" !



One problem is that we rarely, if ever, see the letter "O" being hand-
stamped on the guns. We see zero "0" a lot. I don't have a
known reference for what a hand-stamped factory letter "O" would
have looked like !

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike,

My experiences with S&W's stamped with the letter "O" is that they are nearly always factory refinished, and, more often than not, altered in some way from their original configuration. Same as with the "star" and "diamond" stampings, some are "frame-dated" and some are not. The time periods, on "dated" O-marked guns, has run from the early 1900's to the early 1930's on the handful I have observed over the years. Those that were not dated are anybody's guess...

This marking is another one of the many, to collectors today, S&W 'mysteries' that there's no absolute answer for. No one who would have performed the work and known the internal (or, infernal...) reasons for such markings is still among the living.

Just maybe, if we could raise a couple of the old-time service dept. guys from the dead and interrogate their 100-yr. old memories... ??


David

In the time frame this gun was made, the "O" stamp was the mark of an outside service dep't. "Outside" as opposed to the inside service dep't in the S&W plant. War production schedules necessitated the use of outside vendors to keep up with deliveries. A search of the invoices in the archives for this time period may reveal the names of the outside vendors. I think Charlie Flick's premise that converting .38 Special guns to .38/200, by switching barrels, to meet British orders, would have been an ideal task to outsource, is probably correct. Remember, at this time, S&W had their economic teat in the wringer, so to speak, over the failure of the Model 1940 Light Rifles sold to the Brits. The owed the Brits about one million dollars, which was repaid by making or converting Model 1905, 4th change, revolvers to British specifications. Ed.

Ed

For what its worth, I recall Roy talking about this. The outside
service department was on-premise, and they were not outside
vendors. They were factory employees. The factory had simply
split the service department into two departments; one for repairing
new guns that were rejected ( inside department ) , ad one for
repairing guns that were returned to the factory by their owners,
for service ( outside department ).

I do agree with the concept that one, or the other, service department
was converting inventory from 38 special to 38 S&W. It would have
required both a barrel and a cylinder, I would think.

Regards, Mike

Here's some pics of the "O" mark on the grip frame, barrel, and on the cylinder under the ejector star. This gun was original nickel and I would assume refinished and or reworked. The other side of the grip frame does have a small "n" around the pin that secures the bottom of the grip panel signifying that the gun left the factory as a nickel M&P.

And a final shot of what an outside job will get you, not bad in my opinion.

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That was my impression as well from Roy's response.

Daniel

I can't tell from your pictures, but if you are referring to a small
n around the stock pin, that does not mean original nickel. That is a
fitters mark. The n for nickel would be a capital N , about in the
vicinity where the large O is.

Thanks for posting the pictures of the O. Comparing the one I posted
vs yours, they are very different. Yours is a perfect circle; the one
I displayed is not that, at all. Could be different time, different set
of stamps, etc, but they are not the same at all.

Regards, Mike

Mike,
I think if you take another look at Daniel's First Photo you'll see that there are "Two" Different Zero's stamped on his Grip-Frame!! One is the Perfect O that is in the area that generally has the B or N Stamp & the other is stamped in approx. the 4 O'Clock Position beside the Stock Pin. Also the Grip-Frame is Date-Stamped "9-56" which would most likely mean that the Smaller Zero of the Two does indicate it's a Re-Work Stamping of some sort or another!! Previously nobody made any mention of this Date-Stamp & just wanted to bring it to your attention in case you may have missed it!! Daniel's Revolver also looks to have been Refinished at one time & this Smaller Zero along with the Date-Stamp would verify Dave Carroll's previous information as this Smaller Zero being a Factory Re-Work Marking!!

__________________
Masterpiece

I happen to have one of those too. Mine was purchased at a sales table at the cmp western regional shoot here in phx a few years ago. They certainly knew at the table where the gun was at. I saw the stamp and immediately put my name on the rifle. I don't know if it adds anything to it, but it made it special in my thinking.

Masterpiece

All those marks around the stock pin are suppossed to be fitters
and assemblers marks, indicating who did what during the fitting
and assembly stages of the manufacture of the gun. I'm not aware
that they have meaning, beyond that.

The gun did go back to the factory for service, as indicated by the
date that was stamped on the grip frame. Presumably, but who knows,
the perfect-circle "O" refers to something that happened during the
original manufacture, and not during the much later return to the
factory.

Mike Priwer