I think I got close to this answer once before, but dog-gone if I can find it. I'm trying to get as accurate as possible estimate of a ship date for my .32 HE Snubbie with SN 550XXX. Does anyone reading this have a lettered gun that comes close to this range? Of course SCSW is of little to no help on this particular model, but I would like to confirm my estimate of 1949, which happens to be my birth year. Can anyone confirm or refute?

TIA ~ Froggie

I hate to disappoint, but I-frames were very slow to get back into production after WWII. I have heard of only a bare handful of small-frame revolvers that were shipped before 1950, and I wonder if those records are in fact reliable. A few I-frames were shipped in the latter months of 1950. The flood gates opened in 1951, and I think that is probably when your gun shipped.

If you want a 1949 birth year or even birthday gun, I think you will have to look at N or K frames. A transitional .38/44 Heavy Duty could be found from that year, and a K-Masterpiece might be the most affordable distinctive choice. K-22s are more common than K-38s in the late 1940s; 1949 K-32s exist, but they are rare and expensive. A 1949 Masterpiece would necessarily be a tapered-barrel/narrow-rib model.

Probably the least expensive 1949 acquisition would be a C-series Military & Police, or Pre-Model 10, in the C50000 to C75000 range.

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David Wilson

Unfortunately I'm confident that what David has said is right on the money. Of course anything is possible with Smiths and that number is only about 14,000 over reported post war comencment of 32 HE production, so if you letter it, be sure to let us know. The database has some big holes in it for the period of your gun. If you join the SWCA you could post to Roy Jinks and get the shipping date.

And if the date is wrong move your BD year up, we can all use a few extra years.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I have 2, Ser # 5379XX shipped Nov 1949, Ser # 5622XX shipped 1957.

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Roger

For whatever help it is, I have S/N 60009X, with ship date of Jan. 1953. As you can see, S&W did not ship in S/N order, as S&WOldtimer has # 5622XX having been shipped in 57.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Thanks, guys. I guess in view of the confused and convoluted sequence of releases of these particular (low priority) items at that time in the history of S&W a letter for my specific SN is the only way to go. Even SCSW 3 adds to the confusion by saying that the first post-War specimens were released in 1946, a statement that seems to be completely incorrect in view of current data.

I've been told that members of one of the Brand Collectors' Associations (S&W, Colt, Winchester, etc) were able to make a phone call and quickly get an oral or written SN check (only) for their particular specimen so they could further decide whether the time and expense of a formal letter was merited. Is that true of SWCA? Is that what Hondo44 is alluding to?

Froggie

PS I probably would like to move my birthday back to a few years later, but it would interfere with my retirement and Social Security.

One of the benefits of SWCA membership is that you can request a ship date from Roy Jinks on the SWCA members only website.

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John. SWCA #1586

An absolutely delightful benefit at that!

i have 5346XX. i haven't lettered it, but it has the old pre-war features; hourglass latch, fine, square-corner checkering on small service grips (numbered to it), and the barrel is inscribed on the left side, with nothing on the right side (very early post-war usually). it has the 4-line address, so it was definitely after the 4-line order. i am assuming late 49ish on a ship-date.

my opinion (worth what you pay for it!) is that the 2 inchers were so few and far between, that the numbers didn't always fall into a logical sequence.

the features themselves are sometimes not really even logical. you would think that the hourglass latches would be used up 'til gone, then the later sculpted latch, then the "oval" flat latch. you would think the older square-corner checkering grips would be exhausted, then the round-corner checker grips, then the i-frame diamond magnas.

i think that one thing that seems logical is that the time frame that the round sight/small service grips were used was very short. there seem to be very, very few post-war guns with the sharp/square corner checkering pattern. i don't think i have ever seen them on a terrier, and the pool is so small for chiefs, that it is just too hard to say if any of them had them. i think they were gone very quickly. the round corner checkered grips seem to pop up for a tad longer. most of the early post-war 32s you run across have them, and every pre-magna terrier and chief i have ever seen a pic of has them. i think this is a very important "time-frame" marker, because the chiefs' production run HAD to be very, very short. the round sights, service grips, and sculpted latches were all gone inside the first 100 serial numbers of the chief. after that, EVERYTHING seems like it would have had magnas. it just doesn't seem logical to still have "oldies" laying around, and just put them together randomly, although that may very well be how it really happened!

again, i think the 2 inch guns (32, terrier, and chief) were such tiny production numbers that they sometimes might have had an unusual combination of features.




here is a terrier with the "round corner checkering field", and the "newer" old latch.



i really think these little guns are a very interesting area of s&w research/collecting!

ar15ed,
You sure have two exquisite examples of early post war HEs. I agree with your logic about their scarcity and early variations not following serial number sequence. That 1st one has as many early characteristics as can be found. Even to the point of having flat silver pre war medallions in the grips. And the double hourglass thumblatch is the very 1st post war style, top photo below, similar to the pre war except most likely not undercut like the pre war in bottom photo below:

Immediate post war double hourglass thumblatch without relief cut under checkered pad.


Pre war double hourglass thumblatch showing relief cut under checkered pad.


Your second gun has the 3rd style post war thumpiece and skipped the 2nd type, single hourglass, often seen on improved I frames and completely out of order ("the bottom of the bin Syndrome" again). The 1/2 round front sight, which outlasted the service grips, extended up into the improved I frame, however it was replaced by the ramp front sight with barrel rib prior to the introduction of the Model of 1953. As near as I can tell, the Mod 1953 also introduced the 1st style oval flat latch to the I frame. But you can bet that wasn't a clean transition either. I'm hooked on these '50s I frame variations.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

ha! i love learning about these things! i will check my latch immediately for the undercut. i had about determined that the round sight was the last thing to go. i have an improved i-frame 32 with magnas (numbered to it) that has the later sculpted latch, so i am thinking the last sculpted latch was the "next to last" thing to go.



we pretty much know when the 4-line address starts to appear.

i figure the left-side-only barrel address was the very first thing to go. i have seen it on several 2-inch m&ps that lettered to 1946, and very, very seldom see it on small frame post-war snubbies.
i figure the fine checker/square-corner grips were the next thing to go away, and the early latch right about the same time.
i'd say that shortly after that the round corner grips were completely replaced by the small magnas. i don't think i have ever seen anything with service grips on an improved i-frame.
then, i think the latch was changed to the first iteration of the flat latch.
then, the round sight. i have definitely seen flat-latch/magna guns with the round sight.

with all that speculation (!), we KNOW when the chiefs appeared, and the very first ones had the round sight, later (3rd?) sculpted latch, and round-corner small service grips.

i honestly think that the very earliest production of the chiefs was literally using up the very last "early" stuff in the bins. very, very quickly the chiefs were in basically "modern" trim (magnas, flat-latch, and ramp sight).

i think the chiefs are so rare as to not be of much help, and about the same with the 32s. where we could really check on overlap and funky combinations is with the terriers. they were in full production well before the war, and, i suppose immediately after civilian production cranked back up. right through these interesting transitional years. them having their own serial sequence is helpful, too.

if they just weren't so stinkin' hard to find! i have carefully looked over two prewar (one-line) terriers, one from 38, and one from 39. both had the black hard-rubber grips, and both had been subject to very stinky refinishes!

anyway! those are my humble observations/speculations. as i said earlier, this is a very interesting area of s&w modernization/transition. i honestly THINK that they were thinking about snubs immediately after the war. i think they played with 32s very quickly, almost surely in 1948. maybe even bouncing around in heads as early as 47....or 46!???! then the chiefs appear, pretty much stretching the "little snubby" envelope to the max, with a brand new frame, and a full-power cartridge. the chiefs finished off the early features probably within a couple or three weeks, at most. maybe just days!

at any rate, a tremendous amount of change occurred at a pretty quick rate! finding new combinations is extremely exciting to me. i about hyperventilated when i ran across the early 32!

good grief! it doesn't take much to get me excited any more! i am getting old!!!

i checked the early 32, and it definitely does have the undercut latch! i appreciate the clear pics, and info.

ar15ed, except for cosmetic wear and caliber, that sweetheart of a Terrier could be my .32 HE snubbie's twin. The shape of the borders of the checkering, the later (?) thumb latch, the style of markings, it all matches perfectly.

By the time my improved I-frame .32 HE (still a 5 screw, but with ramp front sight and type 2 flat latch, as well as being a 3 incher) things had changed considerably... in fact, only the short grip with round-cornered borders (but on magmas) and the small frame remain. Its serial number is only 5133 higher than my snubbie, but it just "aint the same." While its condition is a couple of grades higher than that of the earlier gun, that coil spring "improvement" just kinda grates on my sensibilities. Now if I could just find a shooter grade example like your Terrier, I'd be a happy camper... until my next "gotta have one" discovery struck!

Froggie

Outstanding, I was hoping it did. It's the 1st I've personally observed, and confirmed albeit with your eyes but that's good enough for me! Together with the fully pre war service grips including flat silver medallions, a truly very limited specimen and in such collectible condition!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

g.f. man, the terriers are becoming very hard to unearth! in any condition. i am always on the lookout for them. there has to be some of them out in the big world! we just have to keep diggin"! i know what you mean about the leaf-springers. i love them!!!

thanks, hondo. i honestly think the little guy is just about as it would have been in '41 or '42. it surely just sat around on a workbench, in a box, unfinished, until they started the 4-line address. or possibly was just one of the very, very first 4-line 2-inchers they put together. it is the lowest serial numbered 4-line 2-incher i have ever seen, anywhere, and it is the only 2-inch 32 i have ever seen with the "plain" right side of the barrel.

i apologize for a question, but one thing i have wondered about is the hammer block. can someone post a pic of what the pre-war/postwar/post 4-line hammer block differences are? many thanks, and i appreciate everyone's help in my slow education!

Well, it hadda happen! I went to the Salem, VA Gun Show today to drop off a presold gun to a friend/dealer. While I was there, I looked around at the old Smiths and what to my wondering eyes should appear but a Baby Chief! It is well worn but not abused, the grips are of the original type, but I'm having hard time making out the number stamped inside. This example has the serrated ramp front sight and the second style flat latch and bears serial number 42XXX. It's still early enough to be a 5 screw. I know I would be happier with a true Post-War Terrier, but this little guy just jumped up at me and the owner cut me a deal appropriate to the finish. Anyway, it came home with me and is getting to know its older brother the .32 HE Snubbie that started this thread. So far it appears that they will play nicely together and be willing to share the same holsters and gun rugs. All is well with the World for the moment!

Froggie

PS I know it's got that *@##% coil spring in it, but it is a true Baby with the round trigger guard and short grip frame, so I'll force myself to live with it.

Nothing to apologize for. You can see the hammer block by cocking a post war gun. Look in the hammer channel just under the firing pin (on 22) or under firing pin slot on centerfire. In the post war you'll see an extra little part that goes up and down with trigger movement and it rides in a slot on the inside of the sideplate. In a pre war gun you won't see that part. It's the 1st thing to fall out when you remove the side plate on a post war gun.
Fast forward 7 minutes into this video and you can watch it being removed. SMITH & WESSON MODEL 10 SERVICE REVOLVER PART 1 - YouTube

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Jim
S&WCA #819

i have a lettered 32 hand ejector 2" barrel serial number 535xxx and the ship date was July 21,1949. you can see the discussion on it here

Age of 32 hand ejector? With Photos

hope this helps.