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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 09-18-2011, 03:01 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
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Default Will the first Combat Magnum please stand up ?

There is an interesting line from the movie "Clear and Present Danger",
where Robert Ritter and Jack Ryan are going back and forth about the
mess that has been created. Ritter has a letter from Jim Cutter,
purportedly authorizing the illegal activity that Ritter was caught up in.
The line is something like:

"I have this get-out-of-jail pass. Do you have one of those, Jack ?"

Another thread here is about The First Combat Magnum, and the gun
is K260003. So, in the context of the Clear and Present Danger
situation, I would say:

"K260001 has several get-out-of-jail passes. Does K260003 have
any of these passes, Bill ? " ( Of course, this is all in good fun !)

This first image is a copy of the original invoice for K260001. It has
Roys comments at the bottom, identifying K260001 as the first
combat magnum. That seems like a good get-out-of-jail pass, for
starters .



This next image is the factory letter, from 1980, written to Rex Applegate
about K260001. It states that K260001 was the first serial number
assigned , which means it must come before K260003.
(Otherwise K260003 would be the first serial number assigned.) It
also states that K260001 was completed on the same day as K260003,
so that must have been a very busy day, at the factory. This seems like
another good get-out-of-jail pass , not to mention the fact that Rex
went to his grave believing he had the first Combat Magnum.



This next letter is from Bill Jordan, to Rex Applegate, via "Guns & Ammo"
magazine, written in 1981. Bill is convinced he owns the number One
production gun of the Combat Magnum series. This is not a bad
get-out-of-jail pass, not to mention that Bill Jordan would be rolling
over in his grave, if this were not so.



Finally, we have this factory letter written to me, in about 1999. It
notes that K260003 was completed first, but my goodness, its only
a test gun. It probably didn't even work right ! The letter goes on to
say that K260001 is the first Combat Magnum shipped by the factory,
which means, among other things, that by BATF rules it is the first
Combat Magnum. Since both guns, by various factory documents, were
completed on the same day, I wonder how the factory records lead one
to conclude which gun was completed first !



It would be fun to see some get-out-of-jail passes for K260003 !

Regards, Mike Priwer

Last edited by mikepriwer; 09-18-2011 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 09-18-2011, 03:27 PM
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Thanks for the clarification, Mike.
Nice collection of letters to go with that milestone revolver.
JP
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Old 09-18-2011, 03:55 PM
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When collectors of the stature of Bill and Mike cross swords woe unto us peons who venture into the killing zone but I can't resist a comment.

As we always say, with S&W anything is possible. Apparently there are two Combat Magnums identified by the factory as the first one. One has the earlier number and shipped first, the other was assembled first.

Oooooh myyyy!
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Old 09-18-2011, 03:58 PM
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Mike...K260001 is a great gun and the first one shipped by S&W. However, I believe the letter stating K260001 was completed on November 15, 1955 is incorrect and it was completed after K260003. I will check with Roy and let you know what he says.

I do have a letter from him stating K260003 was shipped to Walter Sanborn on December 16, 1955.

Bill
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Old 09-18-2011, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepriwer View Post
It states that K260001 was the first serial number
assigned , which means it must come before K260003.


Finally, we have this factory letter written to me, in about 1999. It
notes that K260003 was completed first,
'Minds me o' the time the lady next door had triples at home with a midwife and her aunt assiting.

It went well for awhile-
Baby A was born first. (first one "completed")

Next, Baby B was born.

Get ready- Baby C was born third!

Now, the parents, bein' real smart folks, had been thinkin' on names for quite awhile. The whole family wanted in on the action, lobbyin' hard for their name to be used. Both Granpa's wanted the first born to be named after them. That was quite a problem, since both were named Bob. The parents thought they might avoid the problem by promisin to name the the third son Joe Bob- the daddy's name was Joe. They broke the news at church a few weeks before the expected birthin in case a fight brpke out so the preacher could mediate, or at least referee.
Watten good enuf, but I'll git to that in a minute.
So, the third one was named first (first number assigned?)

They went on frettin' an everbody was gettin tense.

So, they tried agin. They promised to name the second one born Bobby Joe to honor bofe granpa's an the daddy.
Didden work.

So, everbody was frettin hard.

Anyway, the big day came, an folks drifted in to the parlor justa waitin for the news. Kinfolk, neighbors, an I think a few drifters that probly thought it was a wake an thare might be food.
The momma did purty good, an whipped em out purty fast. The midwife had to rap em up an set em aside an get back to it. The proud daddy cudden stan waitin no longer, an rushed in as she had the last un. He grabbed that baby up, an ran in to the parlor to show off. (third one shipped first??)
The midwife grabbed one an ran out their too. We think she grabbed Bobby Joe.
So, I reckon you could say the third one made shipped first. Wear all still confused bout it- we saw Joe Bob first, then we think Bobby Joe, an then the granpas went in and got the firsborn an brung im out- Bob Bob.
Mighty confusin situachun.


An now, you hav to go an bring this up.
Jus puts me in a dither.
I am compleetlee beside miself.
I may catch the vapors.
I may swoon.
Could someone fan me, please?
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Old 09-18-2011, 04:42 PM
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Sounds like several of us didn't have anything better to do this
afternoon !

Regards, Mike Priwer
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Old 09-18-2011, 05:45 PM
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Lee,

Why was yore momma living next door????
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Old 09-18-2011, 05:48 PM
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Guys, please send me both K260001 and K260003, and I will make a determination as to which one is truly the first. Standard fee for this service is two Combat Magnums, so we will call it even.

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Old 09-18-2011, 05:48 PM
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Old 09-18-2011, 07:55 PM
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Did anyone notice that Bill Jordan said "Hartford" in his letter to Rex Applegate instead of Springfield?
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Old 09-18-2011, 08:29 PM
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Muley

I hadn't noticed that, but sure enough, that is what it says ! I also
noticed his comment about the Combat Magnum being the most
popular model ever produced by Smith & Wesson, and this by 1981.
I'm not surprised he would say this but I think that distinction goes to the .38 M&P .

Regards, Mike Priwer
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Old 09-18-2011, 08:54 PM
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Looks like 260002 is the red headed step child. What became of him?
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Old 09-18-2011, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon88 View Post
Guys, please send me both K260001 and K260003, and I will make a determination as to which one is truly the first. Standard fee for this service is two Combat Magnums, so we will call it even.

My dad bought K260019 new in November 1958. Guess they weren't as popular back then.
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Old 09-18-2011, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightowl View Post
Looks like 260002 is the red headed step child. What became of him?
I was wondering about that too...
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Old 09-19-2011, 01:41 AM
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Default What is the meaning of "Completed"...?

Mike:

The paperwork is nice (actually very, very nice), BUT...You have got to post a couple of photos of the GUN in order to market your position better!!

BTW - I'm quite sure that Bill's 260003 was not "completed" as presented in his photos, until Mr. A. White worked some kind of spectacular magic on the raw material that S&W turned out in 1955. Are factory engraved (or factory contracted engraved) guns "completed" prior to the completion of the engraving?

Both guns and the related provenance is way high on the cool meter.

Thanks for sharing,
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:42 AM
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As someone already stated, not wanting to get between the crossed swords of Bill and Mike, however, S&W as a matter of policy does not typically record the completion dates of their guns. We have all come to accept that Roy's list of shipping dates is the S&W manufacture date and has been accepted by the ATF for their purposes.

S&W has not regularly shipped in serial number sequence.

That said, and I don't recall which gun this applies to, the gun that was shipped first would have to get my vote for the first Combat Magnum as far as S&W's are concerned.

Had 260001 and 260003 sat in the vault for several months and 260002 shipped before them, we would all be in agreement that 260002 was the "first" Combat Magnum.

This is merely my humble opinion and its worth exactly what you paid for it.

Any objections, complaints or pending lawsuits should be directed to my attorneys at Dewey, Screwum and Howe.
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
Did anyone notice that Bill Jordan said "Hartford" in his letter to Rex Applegate instead of Springfield?

Yep. I caught that. And one of the Jinks letters has some spelling errors.

How do we define the first shipped? The Jordan gun was a presentation piece, sent to a police officer outside the normal trade channels. The "first shipped" to the trade had to have been a different gun, and could be defined as"first shipped" in the usual sense.

But 260003 was shipped in the usual bright blue, not engraved for JFK. How did it wind up getting that work done? Looks as if they'd use a gun still at the factory when the decision to make up the engraved gun was made.

Last edited by Texas Star; 09-19-2011 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:04 AM
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Texas Star...Walter Sanborn received K260003 on December 16, 1955. He was an employee in S&W's Sales Department and used the gun most likely for developing the literature on the new Combat Magnum. K260003 never left S&W until it was sold to a collector in the 60s or early 70s. It was engraved in the late 50s or early 60s, but never presented to JFK (reasons lost to history).

Walter Sanborn also received the first 44 Magnum, S130927, and used it to develop the literature on the new revolver. This 44 Magnum was completed on December 15, 1955 and eventually sold to Rex Firearms on February 21, 1956. The second gun made and the first one shipped was completed on December 29, 1955 and shipped to R. H. Coleman of Remington Arms Co. on the same day. It has serial number S130806.

Bill
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:02 PM
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Richard

Just for you !



Regards, Mike Priwer
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Old 09-19-2011, 05:13 PM
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Mike, this could easily be placed in the "which came first, the chicken or the egg" category. However, based on your provenance and the unofficial yet official rule we S&W collectors follow and that being a gun's shipping date = the birth date then K260001 is the first Combat Magnum, regardless when it came off the production line the same day as 260003. Your's had a definate destination where as 003 did not, at least not in Nov, 1955 when both guns were being produced. It is also pretty clear the intent of S&W higher ups to insure that Bill Jordan received the first example of the model he was primarily responsible for. Just my thoughts on an interesting friendly debate.
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Old 09-19-2011, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
Did anyone notice that Bill Jordan said "Hartford" in his letter to Rex Applegate instead of Springfield?
That ain't nuthin'.
He merely wrote the wrong town.
In my younger days, I've woke up in the wrong town.
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Old 09-19-2011, 07:31 PM
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Ok, now who's on first?

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Old 09-19-2011, 08:11 PM
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Chuck

Needless to say, I agree with you 100%. Thanks for your comments.

I am still curious about the engraving of K260003, and why the gun
was never delivered to President Kennedy. There is a shipping date in
November 18, 1960, which presumably is right after the presidental
election. I assumed, but could be wrong, that it corresponded to
sending the gun to Alvin White. That would have been more than
enough time to complete the engraving, and make the presentation.

Maybe management changed it mind ? Maybe some event changed
their mind ? Very curious.

Regards, Mike

Last edited by mikepriwer; 09-19-2011 at 09:21 PM. Reason: Corrected shipping date to 1960
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:04 PM
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"There is a shipping date in
November, 1959, which presumably is right after the presidental
election."

Elections are in even years. Kennedy ran in 1960 and took office in 1961.
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:22 PM
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Muley

My error - its Nov 18, 1960 .

Regards, Mike
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
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Richard

Just for you !



Regards, Mike Priwer
There we go... Now I'm feeling the love...

Thanks!
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:40 AM
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does anyone have a snipet from that film/show where Bill first showed off his model 19?
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:50 AM
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Roy Jinks has a copy of the film.

Mike Priwer
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Old 09-20-2011, 10:59 AM
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Bill Jordan accidentally killed fellow Border Patrolman John A. Rector with a .357 Magnum revolver on October 16, 1956. I wonder if it was K260001?
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
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Bill Jordan accidentally killed fellow Border Patrolman John A. Rector with a .357 Magnum revolver on October 16, 1956. I wonder if it was K260001?
Holy Cow!

John A. Rector
Date of Birth: August 23, 1898
Entered on Duty: March 13, 1928

Title: Patrol Inspector

End of Watch: October 16, 1956

Details:
At approximately 11:30 a.m., October 16, 1956, Patrol Inspector John A. Rector was accidentally shot by the firing of a .357 Magnum revolver by a fellow officer. The mishap occurred at the Chula Vista Sector Headquarters where two officers were discussing various guns and their limitations and advantages. During the course of the conversation, the .357 Magnum was unloaded, examined, then reloaded, and placed in a desk drawer. The two officers then examined a .22 revolver and soon the discussion returned to the .357 Magnum. At this point one of the officers reached into the desk drawer, picked up the pistol, and without realizing that it had been reloaded, pulled the trigger.

The bullet passed through a partition wall into Patrol Inspector Rector's office where it struck him in the left jaw and ranged up through his head. Upon arrival of an ambulance and a doctor, Patrol Inspector Rector was removed to the Paradise Valley Hospital in National City. Two neurosurgeons from San Diego were called; however, nothing could be done for Inspector Rector. He died at approximately 2:00 p.m. the same day.
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Old 09-20-2011, 02:52 PM
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Will the first Combat Magnum please stand up ? Will the first Combat Magnum please stand up ? Will the first Combat Magnum please stand up ? Will the first Combat Magnum please stand up ? Will the first Combat Magnum please stand up ?  
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Hmm then the question is who reloaded the revolver, and I'm surprised he didnt remember that old addage, always check the gun again before pulling the trigger if someone else has handled it in the meantime.
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Old 09-20-2011, 04:37 PM
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I got a beat-up old S-prefix four screw 29 and none of the "problems". I'm plumm wore out after this thread..................
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Old 09-20-2011, 05:57 PM
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Will the first Combat Magnum please stand up ? Will the first Combat Magnum please stand up ? Will the first Combat Magnum please stand up ? Will the first Combat Magnum please stand up ? Will the first Combat Magnum please stand up ?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavinsky View Post
does anyone have a snipet from that film/show where Bill first showed off his model 19?
Somebody does have a link as I watched the segment from a link posted on this site about a year or so ago,
I thought it was on Youtube but a quick search found zip.
I would like to see it again as well.

GREAT stories great guns...what more could one ask for.
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Old 09-22-2011, 05:10 PM
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I wonder if the accidental death of this Border Patrol Officer had anything to do with the gun never being presented to Kennedy. Maybe Teddy put the kibosh on it and began his career of anti gun activity.
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullmack View Post
Holy Cow!

John A. Rector
Date of Birth: August 23, 1898
Entered on Duty: March 13, 1928

Title: Patrol Inspector

End of Watch: October 16, 1956

Details:
At approximately 11:30 a.m., October 16, 1956, Patrol Inspector John A. Rector was accidentally shot by the firing of a .357 Magnum revolver by a fellow officer. The mishap occurred at the Chula Vista Sector Headquarters where two officers were discussing various guns and their limitations and advantages. During the course of the conversation, the .357 Magnum was unloaded, examined, then reloaded, and placed in a desk drawer. The two officers then examined a .22 revolver and soon the discussion returned to the .357 Magnum. At this point one of the officers reached into the desk drawer, picked up the pistol, and without realizing that it had been reloaded, pulled the trigger.

The bullet passed through a partition wall into Patrol Inspector Rector's office where it struck him in the left jaw and ranged up through his head. Upon arrival of an ambulance and a doctor, Patrol Inspector Rector was removed to the Paradise Valley Hospital in National City. Two neurosurgeons from San Diego were called; however, nothing could be done for Inspector Rector. He died at approximately 2:00 p.m. the same day.
Really sorry to resurrect this otherwise worthy thread; but it's worth clarifying that the 'fellow officer' in this story is Bill Jordan, as the 'fellow officer' to John Rector; according to the contemporaneous article about the death in a Chula Vista newspaper. Neither was it a bullet from a different officer's .22 that struck Rector; it is explicitly stated to have been from Bill's .357.
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