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09-28-2011, 09:41 PM
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.22/.32 Hand Ejector (Heavy Frame Target, "Bekeart" type) Pictures
There are a lot of disconnected posts about these, so I thought maybe there could be a spot where images of various versions of this model (from the earliest 1911 production run to the post-1935 ones with the recessed cylinder) could be perused.
I'll start it off with #5175xx, shipped in 1930. The hammer spur is truncated, but I can't say whether it was broken off and the fracture then smoothed out, or if it was deliberately shortened for some reason.
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09-28-2011, 09:51 PM
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Thanks for starting this thread, Goony. I look forward to seeing more pictures of these special .22 Heavy Target revolvers as other members post them. I passed a few months ago on one that I really wanted to buy, but the condition just was not good enough to justify the price the guy wanted and he wasn't willing to come down. I plan to keep looking.
Meanwhile, I thought I would mention that the letter I got from Roy on my .32/20 HE Model of 1902 Target revolver (serial #80xx) says it was shipped to Phillip Bekeart Company on March 15, 1904. If I understand the sequence correctly, that would mean it went to the old store, before the earthquake destroyed it. Good thing for me the gun was sold first, or I probably would not have it today.
Regards,
JP
Last edited by JP@AK; 09-28-2011 at 10:13 PM.
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09-28-2011, 10:04 PM
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A .22/32 thread! How could I not participate.
Here's one of the last .22/32 target revolvers shipped before WWII put an end to commercial production: no. 533038, shipped January 1940.
The later labels don't say anything about "Bekeart" or use the phrase Heavy Frame Target.
It's interesting to see how the company described this offering in its catalogs (1925 in this case).
I don't have a photo of the open cylinder showing the recessed chambers, but you can see from the tiny gap between cylinder and recoil shield that this cylinder enclosed the rims of inserted cartridges.
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09-28-2011, 10:17 PM
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Super pictures, David. I especially enjoyed the catalog pages.
On the recessing: Early examples of the .22/32 Heavy Frame Targets that I've seen did not have recessed chambers. Do you know when they started doing that?
Jack
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09-28-2011, 10:23 PM
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It is reported at serial 525,600 in 1935. These are a 160,XXX, a 270,XXX and a 384,XXX from top to bottom. The 384,XXX has a recessed cylinder and a gold bead front sight and went back to the factory in September of 1940. Apparently, someone thought that the new recessed chamber idea was a good one. The top gun 160,XXX has the smaller or "bobbed" hammer.
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Last edited by JSR III; 09-28-2011 at 10:48 PM.
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09-29-2011, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSR III
The top gun 160,XXX has the smaller or "bobbed" hammer.
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Is it correct to state, then, that the "bobbed" hammer was a factory variation or option?
I've attached a photo of the hammer on the gun with which I started off this thread. This appears to me to have been "bobbed" one way or another after it was shipped. Although it's not as obvious in the picture as it is when actually handling the gun, this hammer just doesn't have the look of a manufactured part, being uncomfortably sharp edged, and the end neither perfectly smooth or symmertrical. Perhaps it was a deliberate attempt to reproduce the factory shortened style hammer, but I fail to see what advantage was gained.
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09-29-2011, 02:10 PM
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I got a chuckle out of some of the hyperbole in that 1925 catalog.
"Heavier and lighter arms were tried, but the .22 on a .32 sized frame proved by far the best."
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, you K-22 guys! Honestly, they really didn't leave themselves much wiggle room for touting the merits of the .22 Outdoorsman when it was introduced just a few years later, did they?
"The .22/32 is a man's gun, the stock fits the hand, and permits the loose yet firm grip so necessary for good shooting..."
So that's what I've been doing wrong all these years, not gripping the gun loosely and firmly at the same time! And evidently women need not bother considering buying this product. After all, we already have that Ladysmith for those darned suffragettes....
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09-29-2011, 02:34 PM
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I just recently learned that S&W experimented with a K-frame .22 about 1910, but that it was a miserable failure because they got the rifling twist all wrong. Twenty years later they got the engineering worked out and the K-22 Outdoorsman was born.
Interesting that they indirectly slag their own M-frame target revolvers. They built them when they thought they could sell them; then when they thought they could sell something better, the M-frames got thrown under the bus.
Those old catalogs do bring a smile. There is a lot of high-mindedness to the prose. I guess you couldn't just say, "Kills things really dead" and expect to get the attention of the entire gun-buying market.
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09-29-2011, 02:36 PM
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i got me one, forget the year, but ive had it lettered.
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09-30-2011, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithcollector
i got me one, forget the year, but ive had it lettered.
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That looks to be an early one, maybe even from the first production run in 1911. Does it have a number on the bottom of the left side stock?
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09-30-2011, 04:42 AM
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Goony, great thread and lotsa' eye candy!
Just a word about 'bobbed' hammers. I've not seen anything in writing about a factory bobbed hammer or ever observed one on dozens of HFTs I've seen. But I won't say Smith never made one, I just don't think so. I too see no advantage for the target shooter.
And I wouldn't say it wasn't done on purpose by an owner that carried it under winter clothing and was tired of snagging the hammer.
I have observed that the cut under the tip of the spur that forms the little bulge on the end occasionally creates a very narrow spot near the tip of the spur. Those seem prone to breakage at the slightest provocation.
As we all know, most revolvers when dropped, due to their weight distribution, will fall hammer down. Hence the reason for Smith's new hammer block safties that started with the Victory Model during the war when a U. S. sailor was killed and Uncle Sam sent them all back to S&W for retrofitting. And the reason so many old Colts and old model Rugers were infamous for shooting their owners when dropped.
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Last edited by Hondo44; 09-30-2011 at 05:00 AM.
Reason: added additional thoughts.
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09-30-2011, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWilson
...Interesting that they indirectly slag their own M-frame target revolvers. They built them when they thought they could sell them; then when they thought they could sell something better, the M-frames got thrown under the bus.
Those old catalogs do bring a smile. There is a lot of high-mindedness to the prose. I guess you couldn't just say, "Kills things really dead" and expect to get the attention of the entire gun-buying market.
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Made me smile as well, not a single word of acknowledgement for a concept commonly reported as initially requested by Bekeart.
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09-30-2011, 11:28 AM
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James referring to one of his having "the" bobbed hammer instead of "a" bobbed hammer is what got me to infer that there might be a production variation. Clearly uninformed speculation on my part.
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09-30-2011, 01:24 PM
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yes my grips have a number stamped on the bottom, i wanna say #2111, but i could be wrong.
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09-30-2011, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
James referring to one of his having "the" bobbed hammer instead of "a" bobbed hammer is what got me to infer that there might be a production variation. Clearly uninformed speculation on my part.
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Sorry if my wording confused anyone. I used the term "the" bobbed hammer because I have seen this on multiple .22/32's before, yours included. I would guess that if one did a search for .22/32 Heavy Frame target or just .22/32 that past threads discussing this topic will be found. I know that I have participated in at least one discussion regarding this hammer anomaly since mine suffers from the affliction.
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Last edited by JSR III; 10-03-2011 at 02:16 PM.
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09-30-2011, 02:31 PM
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I would tend to think the "Bobbed Hammer" was a Custom enhancement back in the day.
When I got this one it had a very slight bulge in the barrel. I did send it to David Chicoine and have the barrel lined, as well as a couple other minor problems fixed. It's S/N 441727, shipped 9/1926.
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10-03-2011, 02:19 PM
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If you search the forum for other .22/32 threads, this has been discussed before. My feeling is the same as Lee suggests, this was an after purchase modification to shorten the hammer tip and prevent pinching the web between the thumb and index finger.
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09-30-2011, 02:43 PM
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...and my custom job done 20 some years ago and previously shown here.
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bobbed hammers
just real happy to have something to offer to the room of all knowledge smith & wesson. i have #2386xx and it has the bobbed hammer as well. i've seen a few offered online with this modification and posted the question here as well. seems likely that either the pinching or snagging could be the reason. mine seems to have been just put to a grinder.
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10-04-2011, 07:55 PM
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What beautiful .22s... What kind of pricing would I be looking at for one in shooter-grade? I don't need a 95% gun, I prefer function and character. As long as the action is tight and locks up right, it can look like a 30 year old VW for all I care.
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10-04-2011, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trikster
What beautiful .22s... What kind of pricing would I be looking at for one in shooter-grade? I don't need a 95% gun, I prefer function and character. As long as the action is tight and locks up right, it can look like a 30 year old VW for all I care.
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I've seen the condition you're looking for as low as $450-500 but as high as $600 asking price or auction starting price. That's why 1blindref"s was such a buy at $633. Check these closed auctions for actual sale prices:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SearchResults.aspx
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10-05-2011, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
I've seen the condition you're looking for as low as $450-500 but as high as $600 asking price or auction starting price. That's why 1blindref"s was such a buy at $633. Check these closed auctions for actual sale prices:
GunBroker.com - Error
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Wow...Pricy. One further question, are all K22's considered C&R guns or did the K22 last beyond what is considered C&R?
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10-05-2011, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trikster
Wow...Pricy. One further question, are all K22's considered C&R guns or did the K22 last beyond what is considered C&R?
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No, only those made before 1961. They made them for at least another 25 years after 1961 and are still made in some form, 10 shot stainless I believe.
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10-05-2011, 12:40 AM
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Top is a 22 Target, bottom is a 32 Target. When I got this 22 the tip of the hammer spur was broken off, I obtained a replacement from Dave Chicone:
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10-05-2011, 08:48 AM
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Gatorbaiter,
Way cool! That .32 Target with pearl stocks and nickel plating is very interesting. There can't be too many out there with that combination of features. Does it show signs of extensive shooting, or is most of that wear and nickel loss from storage and carrying?
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10-05-2011, 09:59 AM
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Gator, have you shown that adjustable-sight .32 before? I don't recall it, and I'd hate to think my memory couldn't hold on to something like that if I had seen it. Can you share the serial number, or the first part of it?
Looks to me like that gun does not have a stud for the trigger rebound slide, which makes it an early Model of 1903. I have heard about two other adjustable sight four-inch .32s from that era. In general, target I-frame .32s were blued guns except for a few of the very early ones. S&W eventually adopted the policy that they would not provide a target revolver with a nickel finish, but there are a few from the early days. I have a nickel six-inch gun target shipped in 1904. The four-inch specimen is very cool. S&W made very few of those through the decades. In my opinion they should have made more.
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10-05-2011, 07:32 PM
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If you have access to a decent digital camera, take a pic of where the pencil marking is (good close up if you can, unblurry) and I can run it through some of my imaging software and see if I can pull out the serial number. Shoot me a PM with your email as I would need the full resolution image straight off your camera (and not shrunk down from Imageshack or Flikr).
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Spotted an interesting article that includes the .22/.32 as one of S&W's all-time twelve most important guns. See:
Shooting Times - Smith & Wesson
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03-02-2012, 12:07 PM
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I have this 22/32 released in the early to mid 1920. It would have had the enlarged grips without medallions that were used during the 1920s. The cylinder is not recessed. I would like more information about these target grips if any one has any idea about the make. It has 22 lpi checker, with right handed thumb rest and the usual palm swell.
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03-02-2012, 01:39 PM
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Spectacular target stocks. I too would like to know who made those -- and then I would keep an eye out for a set of my own.
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03-02-2012, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willeys
I have this 22/32 released in the early to mid 1920. It would have had the enlarged grips without medallions that were used during the 1920s. The cylinder is not recessed. I would like more information about these target grips if any one has any idea about the make. It has 22 lpi checker, with right handed thumb rest and the usual palm swell.
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Those are beautiful custom grips and all I can say is they are not Ropers but equal to Roper quality.
Is the backstrap of the gun's grip frame rebated (notched). If so the gun would have had the regulation police type sq butt extended grips with one screw from the early '20s. If it is not rebated, it would have had the extension targets with two screws from the mid to late '20s. Both w/o medallions as you said.
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I have yet to acquire one of these elegant revolvers. I do however have a couple of pics to add to the thread.
f.t.
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My son's with period Roper target grips. This was factory refinished in 1953. That's an unfortunate period to send guns back to Smith because it received the satin finish of the time and not the bright deep blue of its original finish.
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Last edited by Hondo44; 03-21-2012 at 01:37 PM.
Reason: Thanks to Goony for cleaning up pics.
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03-20-2012, 08:08 PM
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S & W 22/32 I frame
In May of 1958 my parents bought me one of these guns with a 6 in bbl for my 12 th birthday. I think that they paid $65.00 for it used. It was made on March 27, 1923. Ser # 3688XX. It did not come with the oversize Bekeart grips but a set of wood grips the same size as the frame. Was grip size an option? This gun is in exc condition and over the years it was shot many times. The only problem is the firing pin broke back in the early 1960's. My father was a tool and die maker and he made two replacement pins, which the one in the gun still works fine and I have a replacement pin in storage.
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03-20-2012, 08:21 PM
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[QUOTE=JM4151;136417598] It was made on March 27, 1923. Ser # 3688XX. It did not come with the oversize Bekeart grips but a set of wood grips the same size as the frame. Was grip size an option? [QUOTE]
Turns out to be a very good investment. Your gun is from that short period of time I spoke about in my earlier thread when the Regulation Police single screw sq butt grip came standard and the 2 screw target grips (that were standard before and after this perod) were an option.
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03-21-2012, 08:18 PM
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Here's one I picked up a few months back. S# 2400XX with what appears to be 11 under the left grip panel. Has a redone front sight made of brass. I was told 1917 but I ma curious what the 11 represents.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duck32man
Here's one I picked up a few months back. S# 2400XX with what appears to be 11 under the left grip panel. Has a redone front sight made of brass. I was told 1917 but I ma curious what the 11 represents.
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I think the first part of 1917 is a good estimate, although it might even have been as early as the tail end of 1916.
I'm unclear about this "11" - is that stamped into the left side of the butt, the inside of the stock, or merely written in pencil on the inside of the stock? In any event, it may be no more significant than being the identifying mark of the assembler or fitter of the revolver.
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03-22-2012, 06:27 PM
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Goony - Thanks...The 11 is stamped on the frame under the left grip panel parallel to the barrel.
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Pic of my 1922 (dated by Roy Jinks) 22/32 that I posted in another thread. Though mechanically sound, it was in sorry cosmetic shape when I bought it. I turned the revolver over to John Carroll of Old South Restoration for a make-over. He had done a few other projects for me which came out well.
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Just thought I'd add this to the thread. This ad is from June,1928.
f.t.
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Here is mine circa 1926:
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Regarding the ad posted by fat tom above, I think the most interesting tidbit is the statement that this model was "now especially bored and rifled" for the "new high speed nonrusting ammunition" - this being a question that has come up before, whether or at what point were these suitable for shooting .22 long rifle ammunition of a modern specification. Evidently S&W engineered the .22/.32 for that capability a bit earlier than might have been thought, and several years before incorporating recessed chambers into the design.
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Well since this thread is revived and there seems to be a renewed interest in the 22/32 gives me a good opportunity
to bring out a sad specimen that has been in the family a while.
The story is that after WWII grandpa traded a NAZI P38 for it as he wanted something he could shoot pidgeons with .
Good thing it is a "Mans revolver" as this gang of K22 bullies has all but surrounded the little fella.
Maybe the Model 18 has his back as he knows what its like to be the little guy in the bunch.
It is one of the initial run that did not go to PB ,
serial 138437 grip number 567.
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04-30-2012, 12:38 PM
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Hello. First post, I've been a lurker for a bit. Anyway, I came across a .22 like the ones posted here. I noticed a couple items you folks may be able to help with. serial # starts 3311xx. It also has on the front sight, words on both sides. All numbers match. Stocks have no medallion and only one screw. I'll get photos tonight. Thanks
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04-30-2012, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keep right
Hello. First post, I've been a lurker for a bit. Anyway, I came across a .22 like the ones posted here. I noticed a couple items you folks may be able to help with. serial # starts 3311xx. It also has on the front sight, words on both sides. All numbers match. Stocks have no medallion and only one screw. I'll get photos tonight. Thanks
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Welcome to the forum. Sounds like that one would have been shipped about 1920. The stocks you describe are the so-called Regulation Police stocks, which first appeared in 1917 on the .32 and .38 Regulation Police revolvers, but which were also standard for a few years on the .22/32 target as well as the .32 Regulation Police target model. All these were I frame guns.
Looking forward to the pics!
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David Wilson
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04-30-2012, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keep right
Hello. First post, I've been a lurker for a bit. Anyway, I came across a .22 like the ones posted here. I noticed a couple items you folks may be able to help with. serial # starts 3311xx. It also has on the front sight, words on both sides. All numbers match. Stocks have no medallion and only one screw. I'll get photos tonight. Thanks
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The gun you describe must look just like post #57 above. The Regulation Police grips were used as standard for a short few years in the early 20's period. From circa 1920 to circa 1929 medallions were not used on any Smiths.
The front sight has the name of the maker on it, possibly "Sheard", sometimes used by the factory, sometimes installed after market.
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Jim
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04-30-2012, 07:14 PM
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Thanks guys! Yes, it does look like post #57 -although a bit much more abused. The one I found has a bit of blueing reduced on all the high points. But all functional. I'm in the process of clean-up. Gave er the infantry once over. Loaded up, 6 controlled bangs, works as it should. It was marked $525.I traded a Rossi 4" .357 and a Beretta Neos.
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06-18-2012, 08:41 AM
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.22 / .32 Heavy Frame Targets...
As per your photo request; Here ya go Stephen!
These two span from the pre-WW1 period until the WW2 period. The stocks on the early gun (164,000 range) is stamped "2089" as I recall. The lower gun has much larger sights but I don't have it's serial number handy... I seem to remember that it is in the late range where the SCS&W indicted the "transition" guns would be...
I've not lettered or even requested the shipping months for either of these two... I bought these long ago when they were a curiosity and not very expensive. Since then they've lived in the vault and I haven't spent much time with them... I guess I need to get on the stick!
Drew
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06-18-2012, 01:04 PM
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Those are beautiful examples. I would like either one in my collection.
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06-18-2012, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebago Son
As per your photo request; Here ya go Stephen!
These two span from the pre-WW1 period until the WW2 period. The stocks on the early gun (164,000 range) is stamped "2089" as I recall. The lower gun has much larger sights but I don't have it's serial number handy... I seem to remember that it is in the late range where the SCS&W indicted the "transition" guns would be...
Drew
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Hi Drew,
Those are two 1st class examples from different time periods. The top one in the Bekeart era that could be a 2nd or 3rd type Bekeart collectible. It would be interesting to know where that one shipped to.
The bottom one is from the 30s based on the ER knob and probably has recessed chambers. Its grips are pre 20s style with gold plated, recessed emblems but there are so many factory anomalies. For my records it would be interesting to know if they # to the gun if you don't mind.
Thanks for showing those.
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Jim
S&WCA #819
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Tags
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1911, 327, bekeart, commercial, ejector, extractor, hand ejector, jinks, k-22, k-frame, k22, kit gun, ladysmith, m1917, model 1917, outdoorsman, patridge, prewar, recessed, roper, scsw, sig arms, supica, victory, wwii |
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