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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #1  
Old 10-24-2011, 10:06 PM
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Default Using you C&R to aquire S&W revolvers

Hey guys, second post here. I shoot everything from rimfire and centerfire rifles and pistols to shotguns for trap and sporting clays. I recently developed a love for old military firearms and have a nice little collection of military rifles with plans to add more.

About a year ago, I bought a Model 19 off a friend of mine and I absolutely love it. It got me thinking about collecting Smith & Wesson revolvers and what is better than being able to have a firearm shipped right to your door with out having to go through an FFL? (I know the Model 19 isn't C&R, but many revolvers are).

I am trying to create a decent list of guns to look for. I like to comb the gun shows and internet for good deals and like to do my research ahead of time. Can you point me to a good resource (book or website) that covers old revolvers in detail (cost, models, features, etc)?

Also, if you could recommend some common must have models I would appreciate it. I'm not sure where to start with this new track in my firearm collection.

Note: I only buy used firearms in very good to excellent condition and all of my firearms must be shooters. I just can't help myself, if I buy a gun, I have to shoot it
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:10 PM
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I guess I should post my list of wants so far

Safety Hammerless in 32 S&W
Safety Hammerless in 38 S&W
S&W Victory Model
S&W Model of 1917
Hand ejectors in 32 S&W Long, 38 S&W, and 32-20

Probably others but not sure. I am interested in Regulation Police models and other off calibers. Will probably try to find a Mark II in .455 Webley.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:11 PM
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For descriptions and valuation, see the nearest public library. There are more books on that subject than any other regarding firearms.

For shipping guns across state lines without an FFL, find a good attorney and start settling your affairs.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:17 PM
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Just quick FYI, the C & R is an FFL for curios & relics and most firearms over 50 years old. Perfectly legal to ship these guns across state lines.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:27 PM
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Thanks CCWKY. Yes a Curio & Relics license is great because you can buy anything on the ATF apporved list and have it shipped direcly to you, under your license. Here is the link to the ATF list of C&R firearms. There are over 50 Smith & Wesson models currently classified as C&R. http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-p-5300-11.pdf
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:33 PM
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A C&R license is a worth while proposition.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:35 PM
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There is no better source for compiling a wish list than the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, Third Edition. If you read its section by section, it will also clue you in on the rare and desirable models, which will of course also be the most expensive.

If your interests reach back more than a century, remember that guns produced before1898 are considered antiques under Federal law and need no license of any sort to buy or receive.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:37 PM
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It doesn't have to be on the list to be a C&R, just over fifty years old. This means most "pre-number" models qualify.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:06 PM
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Before visiting these sites you must memorize 2 sentences and learn to recite them with conviction:

"Yes dear, I know I spent too much money and I promise to ask your permission first, next time."

"Honey, I realize I have been spending too much time on the internet but I promise to spend more time with you in the future."





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Old 10-24-2011, 11:25 PM
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Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, Third Edition Jim Supica and Richard Nahas. usually around $75.00 but i have bought 3 off of amazon for less than $4o each. It will be your best friend. Listed prices are at least 20-30% below current selling levels but youll soon fiqure that out by simple availability Vs. cost. The ones you listed are good starters and pretty easy to find. Chief Heres a heads up, watch the recent webley imports!! They have to have a safety installed to be imported and I've had two that the safety was so poorly done I just couldnt stand them. Sold both for a loss and I got to wear the stupid nubbie collector t shirt for a week!!

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Old 10-24-2011, 11:27 PM
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suckersrus, great links. Thanx
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:53 PM
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The C&R license is AKA an FFL 03 license.

While the C&R DOES NOT give the registered user the right to resell like an FFL 01 dealer,
It DOES make purchasing eligible S&W's over 50 years old and comemoratives on the C&R list alot easier because the eligible firearm ships directly to your door,
With a C&R license you become the FFL on eligible guns.

The C&R (FFL03) also allows the bearer to purchase an eligible firearm when traveling out of state instead of having to transfer it through a dealer in their state of residence.

My C&R has saved me quite a few bucks and quite a few headaches on several occasions.

The downsides are you have to keep a book of transactions like a dealer does and the ATF can drop by and legally inspect the book anytime.

All firearms purchased before the C&R must be added to your book as well.

IMO
If you are into collecting guns over 50 years old it is definately worth getting a C&R license.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KDS View Post
(I know the Model 19 isn't C&R, but many revolvers are).
Welcome back for your 2nd post. The model 19 has about 6 years plus of production that are C&R. Of course they are the most in demand and costliest.

I agree the 3rd edition if the SCSW is your best source for Smiths. And don't pass over the rare models. Learning about them is the best way to find excellent buys because if the gun shop or seller has no idea what they have for sale, it creates an opportunity for you if you know your guns!!

Many have passed over an excellent deal because they hadn't done their homework.

The Auction site listings under 'completed auctions' will give you the most up to date current market values.
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Welcome back for your 2nd post. The model 19 has about 6 years plus of production that are C&R. Of course they are the most in demand and costliest.

I agree the 3rd edition if the SCSW is your best source for Smiths. And don't pass over the rare models. Learning about them is the best way to find excellent buys because if the gun shop or seller has no idea what they have for sale, it creates an opportunity for you if you know your guns!!

Many have passed over an excellent deal because they hadn't done their homework.

The Auction site listings under 'completed auctions' will give you the most up to date current market values.
Pretty sure many if not most of the comemorative Models including Model 19's are elible as well.
for a complete but not updated list checkout the ATF website at:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-p-5300-11.pdf
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine49guy View Post
Pretty sure many if not most of the comemorative Models including Model 19's are elible as well.
for a complete but not updated list checkout the ATF website at:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-p-5300-11.pdf
And engraved guns are C&R.
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Old 10-25-2011, 07:50 AM
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Default Clarifications on some statements made above

I'd like to respectfully offer clarifications to statements made by several earlier participants in this thread. I am not a lawyer and nothing here should be construed as legal advice. But, I believe that I can document everything that I say below.

There are two ways that a firearm can become, by federal legal definition, a "curio or relic" (or "C&R eligible"): (1) Once 50 years have passed since a particular gun was manufactured, that gun automatically becomes C&R eligible, as long as it is in its "original configuration." (Note: Major changes, such as "sporterizing" a military rifle, resets the 50-year clock.) (2) Specific models or specific individual firearms can be designated by ATF as C&R, even if they are not 50 years old; those so designated are placed on the published list, which is periodically updated. There is a process for petitioning ATF to place a particular model or a specific firearm on the list. (By the way, while there are many engraved commemorative guns on the list, a gun is not C&R eligible merely because it is engraved!) The firearms that are commonplace but more than 50 years old are just as much "curios or relics" as those that appear on the special ATF list.

When you are first issued a C&R license, it is not required that you enter all your previously owned C&R-eligible firearms into the required "Acquisition and Disposition record," usually called the "bound book" (although it can be a loose-leaf book.) What is required is that "each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics" be recorded in the book. [27 CFR 478.125(f), italics added for emphasis] Thus, you must record each C&R firearm that you acquire during the time that you hold the license -- even if you didn't refer to or "use" the license when you purchased that particular firearm. And -- here is where some collectors get confused -- you must record the disposition of any C&R firearm in the book, during the period that you hold the license -- whether or not the acquisition was logged. For example, if one of the firearms that you owned before you were issued the C&R license "turns 50" after you get the license, and then you sell it, you should record that disposition in the bound book, because you are disposing of what has become a C&R-eligible firearm. But if you don't sell it, it need not be logged in the book, because no acquisition or disposition has occurred.

It is not accurate to say that "ATF can drop by and legally inspect the book anytime." The law authorizes ATF to inspect the inventory and records of a C&R license holder only once during any 12-month period (and the inspections may be far less frequent than that, depending on local ATF priorities). The collector is contacted in advance to schedule the "audit," and the law specifically gives the collector the right to have the inspection conducted at the nearest ATF office if he prefers. Most collectors find inspection in the home to be more convenient, however.

Aside from the audits, a collector might be contacted during an active criminal investigation -- for example, if agents are tracing a gun used in a crime -- but they cannot enter your premises without an invitation. If the ATF believes that a collector is himself is engaged in criminal activity, they may enter the premises without an invitation only if they first procure a search warrant, based on probable cause, from a federal magistrate.
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:27 AM
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+ 1 on what ddeanjohnson stated. The problem with some of these interpretations is that even the ATF doesn't agree on all of them. You can ask a question of your local office and receive one answer and then a different answer from the Washington, D.C. office. (Been there, done that)

The C&R license involves "curios" and "relics". Curios by definition are things that are odd or curious and are therefore found on the published list or on the ATF website. Relics are things that are old, like me, and have reached an age of 50 years old or older.

Any S&W shipped before October 24, 1961 is now considered a relic and therefore can be shipped to a C&R holder directly. As someone stated earlier, most S&W's were model marked in 1957/8 so any S&W that is not model marked is typically C&R eligible. One can always call S&W to verify the shipping date, however, pre model marked is usually a safe bet.
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:42 AM
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Wow, I didn't expect such a good discussion on collecting C&R guns.

For you C&R holders: If you are combing pawn shops and gun shows for older guns, do you already know serial number ranges equating to the ship date and buy through your C&R license or do you just buy the gun with the standard 4473 form and the $5 NICS check and add it to your bound book later if it is classified as C&R?

Buying military surplus is easy as I just go in with a signed copy of my C&R and avoid the 4473 form and NICS check, but buying 50+ year old Smith and Wessons may be more difficult, especially models that are model marked.
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:03 AM
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A C&R license is a huge money saver for me. My FFL is a small operator who buys and sells estates out of his house. He charges $35 for a handgun transfer (many charge $50). My state (Wash) recently told the small FFL's that they also have to charge sales tax (nearly 10%) on the value of the gun. This makes buying FFL guns price prohibitive.

C&R = no transfer fee and no sales tax. At this point I only shop the internet for C&R guns.
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:25 AM
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Default more C&R fine points

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSR III View Post
+ 1 on what ddeanjohnson stated. The problem with some of these interpretations is that even the ATF doesn't agree on all of them. You can ask a question of your local office and receive one answer and then a different answer from the Washington, D.C. office. (Been there, done that)
This is true. There is no substitute for actually reading the governing statutes and regulations, so that you can politely challenge ATF personnel who may be confused on some fine point. Most ATF agents probably don't spend much of their time dealing with C&R issues. Click here to read the account of a C&R licenseholder who, during a 2009 audit, had to explain to the ATF agent that C&R firearms acquired prior to issuance of the license need not be recorded in the "bound book" -- which the agent then confirmed by calling a supervisor.

Quote:
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Any S&W shipped before October 24, 1961 is now considered a relic and therefore can be shipped to a C&R holder directly.
Yes, certainly any S&W shipped before that date is now C&R eligible, unless it has been drastically altered from its original configuration (minor alterations, such as changing of sights or grips, do not deprive a firearm of its C&R status). But C&R status actually occurs 50 years after the date of manufacture of a gun, not 50 years after shipping. If there is adequate documentation that a certain model or variant was no longer manufactured after October 24, 1961, then any example of that model or variant would be C&R eligible today -- even if the shipment date for the particular gun was years later. The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson: 3rd Edition contains much excellent information on the dates that certain models ceased production.

It should also be noted that a few jurisdictions, such as New Jersey, do not allow direct shipment of C&R firearms to C&R licenseholders, but require a transfer through an FFL-dealer (FFL Type 1). One of the federal requirements for C&R transactions is compliance with the laws of both the seller's state and the buyer's state.
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:40 AM
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ddeanjohnson - very good and informative post.
I've noticed that some of the terminology in the C&R laws and rules is somewhat vague. I've read posts where not even the ATF knows the answers to some of the questions that are brought up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KDS View Post
Wow, I didn't expect such a good discussion on collecting C&R guns.

For you C&R holders: If you are combing pawn shops and gun shows for older guns, do you already know serial number ranges equating to the ship date and buy through your C&R license or do you just buy the gun with the standard 4473 form and the $5 NICS check and add it to your bound book later if it is classified as C&R?

Buying military surplus is easy as I just go in with a signed copy of my C&R and avoid the 4473 form and NICS check, but buying 50+ year old Smith and Wessons may be more difficult, especially models that are model marked.
Some gun shops / pawn shops aren't very up to date on C&R eligible guns. Some won't accept your C&R license and make you fill out a 4473 on guns that are old enough to be C&R eligible, just to cover their butts. I've only had this happen once and really wanted the gun so I went ahead and did the standard paperwork even though the gun qualified.
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KDS View Post
Wow, I didn't expect such a good discussion on collecting C&R guns.

For you C&R holders: If you are combing pawn shops and gun shows for older guns, do you already know serial number ranges equating to the ship date and buy through your C&R license or do you just buy the gun with the standard 4473 form and the $5 NICS check and add it to your bound book later if it is classified as C&R?

Buying military surplus is easy as I just go in with a signed copy of my C&R and avoid the 4473 form and NICS check, but buying 50+ year old Smith and Wessons may be more difficult, especially models that are model marked.
As a California licensee, I don't have the option you pose. If I want to take the gun with me, I need to buy with the C&R license as well as a supplementary CA form that exempts me from volume limitations and waiting periods. Out of state, of course, I would need to use the C&R.

At the level of theory, I think I would use the C&R license whenever I could. If I ran into a seller who challenged the C&R status of the firearm and refused to sell it except as a standard transaction, I'd do that. But if you have a license, why wouldn't you use it?
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Old 10-25-2011, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWilson View Post
At the level of theory, I think I would use the C&R license whenever I could. If I ran into a seller who challenged the C&R status of the firearm and refused to sell it except as a standard transaction, I'd do that. But if you have a license, why wouldn't you use it?
I do use my license whenever I can. For buying military surplus rifles, I know for sure what is C&R and what isn't. I don't currently have the knowledge of wether or not a certain Smith and Wesson revolver is C&R. I just need to do the research so I know what I am looking at when I see a potential purchase. My experience is that the pawn shops don't know much about C&R but I can typically convince them to honor my license.
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:10 PM
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Just as a ballpark standard, any S&W that is not "Model Marked" (began in 1957) would be C&R eligible. Being a member of the S&W Collectors Assoc. allows you access to the Historian which can get you a ship date in a day or two. It is very true, not all dealers are up on C&R licenses. I recently acquired a K22 CM (Pre 18) from a pawn shop, and it took me about a 1/2 hour to explain to them what a C&R is and they made two phone calls to clarify. Since the pawn shop was out of state, it was really worth my time.
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:20 PM
suckersrus suckersrus is offline
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A couple more items of interest.

1. Some "stores" will give you a discount if you have a C&R license, such as Brownells and MidwayUSA.

World's Largest Supplier of Gun Parts, Gunsmith Tools & Shooting Accessories - Brownells
Shop Shooting Supplies | Reloading | Gunsmithing | Hunting gear — MidwayUSA

This discount more than pays for my license.



2. Both internet auction sites and many sales sites have C&R categories. You can browse the entire listing or narrow your search by types, i.e. "Colt", "pre 64 Winchester", "model 19". or maximum price, etc.

Guns - Online Gun Auction - Guns for Sale at GunBroker.com
Guns - Gun Auction & Guns For Sale at AuctionArms.com
Guns for Sale, Gun Classifieds, Gun Auctions, Shop for Guns at GunsAmerica
Guns International, Used Guns For Sale Online, Antique Guns, Collectible Firearms




Now, my favorite reasons for having a C&R license.

Birthday guns.
I was born in 1952. I purchased, with my license, a 1952 model 70 Winchester, Featherweight, 308.
Turns out that 1952 was the first year that Winchester produced the Featherweight as well as the first year chambering the 308.
I had a nice stock put on it. My favorite rifle.



I also found a couple model 94 Winchesters made in 1952 and a Marlin 336 also made in 1952. They will go to my grandsons.


My father served in Europe during WWII. Every night before bedtime he would tell me stories about the places, people, airplanes, booby traps, guns, and a jackrabbit he killed and gave to a starving German family.
He passed away when I was 13.

I found a Colt WWII Pacific Commemorative (that had been shot) for a very reasonable price. It took a a couple years of searching to find the matching European Commemorative (in the same condition and price). Again, they will go to the grandsons.


Sorry about running so long. I'll shut up, wipe the tear from my eye and find something else to do.
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Old 07-01-2016, 02:53 PM
crsides crsides is offline
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Read from the bottom up, I sent a question to the BATF about record keeping for a C&R holder.

(response from BATF)
Good morning,

As long as your personal firearms are not purchased with your C and R license then ATF does not require you to record them or to track them.

Regards,
David Howell
Firearms Industry Programs Branch


-----Original Message-----
From: sidesfam@comporium.net [mailto:sidesfam@comporium.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 12:41 PM
To: FIPB Regulatory Email Inquiries <FIPB@atf.gov>
Subject: C&R license question

I just received my C&R license. I understand the record keeping associated with the license, and C&R firearms purchased and disposed of using the license.

Are there any record keeping changes associated with the firearms I currently own?

Same question concerning new acquisitions which do not qualify as C&R firearms?


thanks

Charles R. Sides
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Old 07-01-2016, 03:15 PM
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The last post before mine addresses my question.

"All firearms purchased before the C&R must be added to your book as well."

The above statement from an earlier post makes no sense to me. If you didn't use the license to acquire the gun, why must it be in the record book? If I legally buy an old gun from a friend am I supposed to log it even though I didn't buy it using my license? What if I buy an old gun from a dealer? Take it home and log in my C&R book? Seems crazy to me.

I don't so any of those things, by the way. If I don't use the license to acquire the gun, it doesn't go in the log. If they want to yank my C&R for this they can go ahead.
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Old 07-01-2016, 06:54 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard View Post
Just as a ballpark standard, any S&W that is not "Model Marked" (began in 1957) would be C&R eligible. Being a member of the S&W Collectors Assoc. allows you access to the Historian which can get you a ship date in a day or two. It is very true, not all dealers are up on C&R licenses. I recently acquired a K22 CM (Pre 18) from a pawn shop, and it took me about a 1/2 hour to explain to them what a C&R is and they made two phone calls to clarify. Since the pawn shop was out of state, it was really worth my time.
That's a safe rule.

But this year, 1966 is the upper limit for C&R qualification. That's an additional 9 years of production that now qualify based on production date.

For S&Ws the only date one can acquire is a shipping date which may indicate a gun doesn't qualify, and can exclude some actual C&R qualified guns produced thru '66 but shipped later.
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Old 07-02-2016, 11:49 AM
larryofcc larryofcc is offline
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Also, most older Class 3 machineguns can be purchased with a C&R. You don't actually need a class 3 dealer and pay all his fees.All WW2 machineguns are covered. I bought my 1943 vintage M1 Thompson with a C&R and argued this point with a class 3 dealer. He said no way, but I have a duly registered full auto Thompson in my safe with all the papers and tax stamp.
You may also transport your class 3 weapon to another state that allows machineguns without telling the ATF. If you do not have a C&R license, you have to get specific permission to do this.
Big Larry


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