lowest chief sp airweight serial number

ar15ed · #1 11-03-2011, 07:46 PM

there was a thread recently for low chief special serial numbers, so i figured i would start one for the airweights. according to the scosw/3rd they started in the 13000 range, but i am having no luck at all finding one even close to that.

lowest one i have is 278XX, and has the short grips and bug screw.

post up those pics of the early ones! i know they are out there!!!

handejector · #2 11-03-2011, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ar15ed

lowest one i have is 278XX, and has the short grips and bug screw.

I have to challenge this.
Please show a pic of the inside of the grips.

ar15ed · #3 11-04-2011, 12:06 AM

i appreciate your challenging me, but i am afraid i don't even know enough to understand what you are challenging! i apologize for my ignorance. i don't have a pic of the inside of the grips in my pic files. i based my assumption on the proximity of the diamond to the bottom of the checkering field. here is a pic of a later model 38 with the diamond farther up.

i haven't actually tried to interchange grips between guns. do the earlier airweights not have the short frame? set me straight!

Malysh · #4 11-04-2011, 09:31 AM

You can't use early Mod 38 stocks (Bodyguard Airweight) on a Mod 37 (Chief's Special Airweight).
Early Mod 38s had high horn Bodyguard stocks which are taller than the type fitted to standard pattern frames such as the Mod 36 or the Mod 37. The "ears" of the stocks at the top will stick up over the frame due to the longer height of the stocks. Later Mod 38s and Mod 49s were eventually fitted with the same size stocks the Mod 36s and Mod 37s used, but not in the early time frame. The stocks changed sometime around 1968 when S&W dropped the center diamond from the stocks. They shortened the Centennial stock ears, and also the Bodyguard stock ears to match the overall dimension of the standard J frame service stocks.
I don't know anything about the screw hole being moved up or down. I didn't think it was moved.

My Mod 37 is # 252643, and was sold in 1962. No lock screw. I've got it in a very early Alessi IWB right now on my waist. The holster I mentioned was a prototype very similar to a Sparks Summer Special. It never went to production, according to long time Alessi employee and current president Tom Kulwicki.

Malysh · #5 11-04-2011, 09:34 AM

I don't think the early Chief's Special Airweights were in production early enough to have the shorter I frame dimensions of the very early Chiefs Specials with the shortest grip frames.

Old cop · #6 11-04-2011, 11:08 AM

My 1962 Model 38 has the high horns so be careful when employing a speed loader, it will not fit. When carrying my M38 I change to a newer set of stocks to accomodate the speed loader and set back the original high horns.

handejector · #7 11-04-2011, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ar15ed

i appreciate your challenging me, but i am afraid i don't even know enough to understand what you are challenging!

I'm always trying to learn also!

I don't THINK any large trigger guard frames have short grips cause I've never heard of one or seen one. Your gun has the large trigger guard.
Small frame grips from 50-54 vary a lot as they evolved, so it's tough to determine long or short by checkering and screw location.
So-
Short grip frame= pin about 1/8" from bottom.
Long gripframe = pin about 1/4" from bottom.
I can see that in pics, hence my request. Measuring works as good if you can.
Measure from bottom edge of pin to edge of frame.

Malysh · #8 11-04-2011, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old cop

My 1962 Model 38 has the high horns so be careful when employing a speed loader, it will not fit. When carrying my M38 I change to a newer set of stocks to accomodate the speed loader and set back the original high horns.

Old cop is right. The high horn stocks are not only taller, but they are accordingly a bit fatter, or wider at the rounded contour.
I couldn't use a Safariland speedloader with the original stocks. Safariland holds the cartridges very rigidly. I found the HKS speedloaders work with the original stocks because they allow the cartridges to wiggle.

VM · #9 11-04-2011, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

I'm always trying to learn also!

I don't THINK any large trigger guard frames have short grips cause I've never heard of one or seen one. Your gun has the large trigger guard.
Small frame grips from 50-54 vary a lot as they evolved.
So-
Short grip frame= pin about 1/8" from bottom.
Long gripframe = pin about 1/4" from bottom.
I can see that in pics, hence my request. Measuring works as good if you can.
Measure from bottom edge of pin to edge of frame.

Here's a picture of grips showing what Lee is describing.
Look at hole locations - Short grip frame is on left.

ar15ed · #10 11-04-2011, 11:58 AM

excellent! i will check it immediately. i have always assumed that the "low" screw diamond was the short frame, and the "high" screw was the long frame. i didn't think the short frame was particularly rare, as i have seen the low diamond well into the 40,000 range and even higher.

the small triggerguard/triggerguard screw frame is what i am searching for!!! i guess, at this point, my first question is whether the small triggerguard is ALWAYS accompanied by the short gripframe, or (as i have assumed!) that the short gripframe continued for some time after the small triggerguard (and triggerguard screw) was phased out.

i have tried a couple of threads with absolutely no luck in luring a small triggerguard gun out. i decided that a thread inviting LOW serial numbers might bring one to the surface. i reckon the 24000 range is about as low as i have ever even seen in a pic (except the tiny pic in scosw).

i appreciate the info on 38/49 grips! i just posted the first "high" diamond pic in my pic file. i have always heard that the "short" frame had about one line of checkering below the diamond, and the "long" frame had about 4 lines. investigating this screw location placement was my only reason for posting the other pic, and i apologize for not digging deeper and posting a later "conventional" 36 or 37!

STILL searching for low airweight serial numbers! and any info!!!!

Malysh · #11 11-04-2011, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ar15ed

excellent! i will check it immediately. i have always assumed that the "low" screw diamond was the short frame, and the "high" screw was the long frame. i didn't think the short frame was particularly rare, as i have seen the low diamond well into the 40,000 range and even higher.

the small triggerguard/triggerguard screw frame is what i am searching for!!! i guess, at this point, my first question is whether the small triggerguard is ALWAYS accompanied by the short gripframe, or (as i have assumed!) that the short gripframe continued for some time after the small triggerguard (and triggerguard screw) was phased out.

i have tried a couple of threads with absolutely no luck in luring a small triggerguard gun out. i decided that a thread inviting LOW serial numbers might bring one to the surface. i reckon the 24000 range is about as low as i have ever even seen in a pic (except the tiny pic in scosw).

i appreciate the info on 38/49 grips! i just posted the first "high" diamond pic in my pic file. i have always heard that the "short" frame had about one line of checkering below the diamond, and the "long" frame had about 4 lines. investigating this screw location placement was my only reason for posting the other pic, and i apologize for not digging deeper and posting a later "conventional" 36 or 37!

STILL searching for low airweight serial numbers! and any info!!!!

Ed, you're talking about placement of diamonds and checkering and where stock screw holes are in relation to the different frame and grip frame sizes. Lee and VM are talking about the placement of the stock pins in the frame and where the holes in the stocks line up with the pin holes. Not exactly the same thing.....

handejector · #12 11-04-2011, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ar15ed

excellent! i will check it immediately. i have always assumed that the "low" screw diamond was the short frame, and the "high" screw was the long frame. i didn't think the short frame was particularly rare, as i have seen the low diamond well into the 40,000 range and even higher.

the small triggerguard/triggerguard screw frame is what i am searching for!!! i guess, at this point, my first question is whether the small triggerguard is ALWAYS accompanied by the short gripframe, or (as i have assumed!) that the short gripframe continued for some time after the small triggerguard (and triggerguard screw) was phased out.

i have tried a couple of threads with absolutely no luck in luring a small triggerguard gun out. i decided that a thread inviting LOW serial numbers might bring one to the surface. i reckon the 24000 range is about as low as i have ever even seen in a pic (except the tiny pic in scosw).

i appreciate the info on 38/49 grips! i just posted the first "high" diamond pic in my pic file. i have always heard that the "short" frame had about one line of checkering below the diamond, and the "long" frame had about 4 lines. investigating this screw location placement was my only reason for posting the other pic, and i apologize for not digging deeper and posting a later "conventional" 36 or 37!

STILL searching for low airweight serial numbers! and any info!!!!

"my first question is whether the small triggerguard is ALWAYS accompanied by the short gripframe,"

In my observation, I have ONLY seen these combos:
1> Short gripframe, Small trigger guard with screw.
2> Long gripframe, Large trigger guard WITHOUT screw.

_______________________________

"i have always heard that the "short" frame had about one line of checkering below the diamond, and the "long" frame had about 4 lines."
I think it went this way-
When they lengthened the grips, they did not immediately change the checkering machine to make a longer pattern. So, we see long grips with the old short pattern for awhile. Later, they checkered the grips with a longer pattern, making it appear that the screw had been moved. Put a short grip together with a long grip, and they line up everywhere, including the screw, except for the bottoms.

Goony · #13 11-04-2011, 12:52 PM

This thread certainly has strayed a bit from where the originator had wanted it to go, so allow me to reel it back in a bit.

Here's a photo of another original Chiefs Special Airweight, coincidentally also serial number #278XX.

What's interesting is that unlike ar15ed's, mine is sans the extra bug screw. A lot of collectors presume that the bug screw was a very early feature of the alloy cylinder equipped Chiefs Special Airweight, but from what I have been able to determine, it was in fact something added as production progressed. That we have two guns here numbered so closely together, one with the bug screw and the other without, seems to help nail down a range where the transition occurred.

I also have an even earlier Chiefs Special Airweight, #242XX, for which I don't have a photo as of yet, but it is in all particulars (other than the serial number, of coiurse) indistinguishable from my #278XX pictured above (to be absolutely clear, #242XX doesn't have a bug screw, either, nor a smaller triggerguard).

handejector · #14 11-04-2011, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ar15ed

i have always heard that the "short" frame had about one line of checkering below the diamond, and the "long" frame had about 4 lines. investigating this screw location placement was my only reason for posting the other pic,................

Here ya go- you made me dig.

Pics of two pairs of LONG grips-
One with short checkering and one with long. Nothing moved except the bottom checkering border. They still match up otherwise.

DCWilson · #15 11-04-2011, 01:19 PM

This is one of those threads where the educational content is even better than the pretty pictures. Thanks to all who have contributed.

ar15ed · #16 11-04-2011, 08:08 PM

i love you guys! where else in the world could i get this info!!!!!

i just got home from slaving, but i will check out my grips tomorrow, although, at this point, i am sure it is the long frame with the "low" diamond.

goony, that is an absolute beauty! mine is not perfect, but it was the lowest serial/earliest airweight i had ever found, and the only chance i had had at one with the bug, so i picked it up. it is very interesting that ours are that close together. i have about decided that the little screws were somewhat scattered throughout the earlier production, especially popping up frequently in the 27000-29000 range. you may very well be right that they actually STARTED using them somewhere on up in production, as opposed to using them right from the beginning.

as i said before, about the 24000 range is the lowest i have ever had any contact with.

again, i appreciate all the valuable info and pics!!!!

OldSmithCollector · #17 07-12-2023, 05:59 AM

Now that I know how to post photos....

Here is my #24,1xx , I think to date the earliest one that has been proven still 'in the wild'.

OldSmithCollector · #18 07-12-2023, 06:02 AM

Here are two in the 27k range

#27,055 is the first two photos

#27,679 is the second two photos

I agree with Goony, the "bug-retaining screw" didnt show up very early, it was a later development. I see them in the 1953-1955 years based on my research across all of the J frame airweights.