JCS&W,
No question that it's an I Frame, Pre model 30 and no offense meant!
It's also a gorgeous example. It's just that the 1/2 round sited, ribless barrel versions can more readily be recognized as I frames because they more resemble the pre war models. But the post war 50's era I frames have more incarnations than usually thought with a plethera of variations in the very short period prior to the J frames in 1961 (excepting of course the Chiefs which were always J frames). Personaly I make the following distinctions:

1. Transitionals

Pre war/post war

Pure post war including the 1957 issue of .32 Regulation Police Targets

Post war Improved

2. Model of 1953 I Frames; the Pre-Model numbered 4 screw & 3 screw models

3. 1957 Model #’d guns

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hondo, no offense taken. I was just surprised to see my I frame evaluated by you and Mr. Pope in open forum. I thought it would be prudent to clear up some of your questions. I just got my "Letter" on it, so I am just a bit proud.

I have posted these before but here goes,

J frame Baby Chief 38 special (top)
Early Post war 38 S&W Terrier (bottom)


Grip numbered 22/32 Original Beckeart run gun that did not ship to P. Beckeart.

And it's definitely one to be proud of! I was offering evidence to share and defend it as the I frame it is.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Sorry if you got upset JCS&W, it was not my intension to "evaluate" your S&W, or upset you in any way, all I did was comment that it did not look like an I frame to me, it looked more like a J frame. When Jim pointed out to me that it wasn't a J frame and why I agreed.

As far as talking about it in an open forum, well I think that's the best way for all of us to "learn" things, this way we all learn, not just a few in private e mails that what you have is not a J frame. Sorry for what ever you think I did that was wrong. I wont comment on any of your post again.
Regards
H. M. Pope

Glad you pointed out the barrel differences. If you had not asked the question all of us would have missed it. I learned something new! Thanks Mr. Pope.

Back to the issue at hand. Here's a Model 34-no dash. Actually, it's marked "36" and then overstamped to a "34"

#4153 from 1953 with original box.







FN in MT

Thanks for the nice comment Model19man, glad you learned something from it, I also re-learned something I had forgotten about S&W's and I'm sure a lot of others learned something also.

H. M. P.

I agree that clarification is fine in the open. This is a 'discussion' forum.

However, if a gun is being questioned, tact is a wonderful thing. I deleted a post or two above and edited others. It often helps to ask a question instead of making a statement.

JCS&W is obviously proud of his heirloom I frame, and rightly so, but the glow was knocked off rather quickly, wasn't it?

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Thank You Lee Jarrett.
Regards
H. M. Pope

This has been a very enlightening thread on one of my favorite subjects so my hat is off to all of you for the very nice "I" frame revolvers. Thanks for the photos and the exposure to some of the seldom seen examples! I love to learn from you guys and gals!

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Sam
S&WHF 333 S&WCA 2198

OK, now I'm confused...

I was under the impression that all I-frames, improved or not, had the round trigger guard rather than the elongated one that was retained on the J-frames. Is there a round trigger guard improved I-frame similar to the Baby Chief, then a later (more) improved I-frame with the elongated trigger guard? This would give a long trigger guard with a short cylinder window, right? My head is starting to hurt again!

Froggie

Answers to your questions: yes, 3rd down on left and yes, 2nd down on right (not more improved, the Mod of 1953 'NEW' I frame.

Let's look at this photo: (these are in the order that they were introduced)

Top left: pre war I frame
2nd: post war transitional: round guard, leaf spring
3rd: post war Trans. improved: rd gd, coil spring (this version has the same features as the early rd sight Baby J).

Top right: pure post war Trans. Imp.: rd gd, coil spring, ramp sight and barrel rib (resembles the later Baby J)
2nd: Mod. 1953: egg shaped gd, coil spring, ramp sight and rib (I frames were like this 'til 1961)
3rd: post war Trans. target issued 1957: rd gd, leaf sprg.
4th: Post 1961, Mod 31-1, J frame: almost the same as 2nd on right above but compare space in front of trigger guard; it's an 1/8" longer as is the frame window & cylinder. With J frame sized rd and sq butt grip frames.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

.32 Hand Ejector Third Model serial # 377xxx.
Stag grips are not period but much more recent.
I have the original hard rubber stocks too.

OK, so somewhere around SN 551-554,000 they did the first "improvement" mainly by converting from the standard old flat mainspring to the coil spring, with little other change. This would have been about 1951 or -52. The second change was the Model of 1953 which was almost a J-frame except for the shorter window that was still too small for a .38 Special. The making of the Model 30 (or was it the 30-1?) along with similar model upgrades for the .22s and .38s brought a final end to the venerable I-frame line and made everything J-frames. Does that sound about right? Anybody got an approximate SN for the conversion to the long trigger guard and/or the change to all J-frames? Inquiring minds are still inquiring!

Froggie

Froggie,
You are correct. All I frames got model numbers c. 1957 and they all got -1s in 1961 when changed to J frames.

22/32 PW Transitional Kit Guns began w/ #536,685 and the last known, #610,677 shipped in Nov. 1954. They were not "Improved" and changed directly to the Model of 1953 22/32 Kit guns starting with a new serial range independent of the .32s. The year 1960 started out with 22/32s in the 70,000 range so I can only interpolate c. # 78,000 when they changed to Mod 34-1 J frames c. 1961.

My latest Improved .32 I frame is #610,935 and my earliest .32 Model of 1953 is #614,285 and it's a 4 screw (there are no 5 screw Mod 1953s) therefore a fairly early one. So there's a little over a 3000 number gap which will have to be narrowed with further observation. The I frame 32s hit #712,954 by the c. 1961 change to 30-1 and 31-1 J frames.

The .38 S&W I frames were always in a different number range and I don't have enough of them to give you any numbers around the change to Mod 1953. Maybe a new thread would solicit enough serial numbers to capture the transition to Improved I frame, to the Mod 1953 or to the J frame.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Gorgeous. One thing about stags, they are timeless. So the only difference for them to be period would be to have the round top service stocks shape. But your Magna stocks shape looks much better and feel better as well.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

4-1/4", 4" and a 3" mod 30 (no dash). All 32L.

This is a transitional 22/32 kit gun, frame and barrel produced circa 1940. Then upgraded with post-war parts and shipped June 5, 1951, sent to an individual in New York state. One of a shipment of 25 that were similarly treated. Pretty rare, and in excellent original high-polish blue.

John



More about this particular gun here:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/members...2-kit-gun.html

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I was going to post my two Terrier snubs, nickel & Blue, half moon front sights, but after looking at your, there is no way I would do that to your beauty. Very nice John.

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Baby Chief Admirer
SWCA 2870

I'd be willing to bet that you won't find another one of these: .38 Regulation Police shipped in February of 1953 with all matching numbers, including the barrel which is marked "32 Long Ctg".

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Peter #2091

This belonged to D B Wesson's Son-in Law. It is the only I Frame I've ever seen with a Hump Back Hammer.

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	kit gun 7.jpg (14.4 KB, 99 views)

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Don Mundell

It was passed on to me from my father. The pistol belonged to my Mother's father, (my grand father). The pistol grips are not original. Looking to squires a set that fits correctly.
A gun show rep said the pistol was originally blue metalic. My grand father was a rail toad police officer, kicked off the hobos that would ride the cargo cars. Not sure if this was the pistol he used, but it might be. The photos are of the numbers on pistol. I need to clean it. About the ammo, what my dad gave me, UMC 32 call 71 grain metal case (L32AP). I purchased the Magnatech .32 S & WL 6,35g (95 gr.)SJHP (32SWLC) BS0815 L-90. Should I not use the Magnetic ammo in my S & W Pistol? Or what should I use. What is recommended for this pistol? How would I verify if this pistol has pressure sleeves in the barrels? What else should I know about my pistol? The number on butt of the grip is, 150393. The number on the bottom of barrel is B 150393.

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Welcome to the forum.

Your 'pistol' is actually a revolver since it chambers more than one cartridge at the same time. It has no pressure sleeves (whatever those are, no such thing) in the cylinder chambers.

The serial # 159393 indicates it's officially a ".32 Hand Ejector Model of 1903 - 5th Change", and likely produced ~ 1916.

I believe you mean Magtech ammo which is safe for it as long as it's standard loadings. The cyl is not heat treated so anything other than currently manufactured .32 Long standard pressure ammo is not recommended.

The correct grips are hard rubber Gutta Percha or walnut with gold plated recessed S&W medallions, either should be shaped like the top gun in post # 70 above.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Here is a picture of my only I frame. It beats up my knuckle so I don't shoot it much, I always wanted a nickel with pearls so it's found a home.
Hdhic aka cliff

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You might look for a Tyler T-grip style grip adaptor to lower your knuckles out of the "danger zone." They have been commonly used for decades for just that reason... in fact, I've used them myself. Enjoy shooting it!

Froggie

That's a sweetheart. Sad to hear someone can't enjoy the .32 I frame. Do you have small, med or large hands?

There's a zillion used after market grips for the J frame for sale, but as long as they're a lengthened design to cover the grip frame butt, they'll 'drop on' your I frame.

What about some used factory I/J frame target stocks just for when you shoot it?


They sure made the difference on my .38 Spl Mod 36-1 J frame with defense loads:


And this .32 H&R Mag J frame:

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Jim
S&WCA #819

OK, I'll play. Purchased my first S&W revolver just the other day (actually, my first revolver period). Model 34 no dash, circa 1958 or so. Grips were changed to a later style sometime in the past. Totally in love with this gun.

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Hondo, I just picked up a poor little 32 HE 2'' barrel, no finish, it was in an evidence room for years, broken trigger, just a mess.
My gunsmith is putting it back in shooting condition and it will be refinished. It has a coil mainspring and it's a 5 screw. s/n # 559199. I need to take before and after photos before it refinished. The Standard Catalog of S&W states that the leaf spring and 5th screw was deleted in 1953, is this correct? You stated earlier that no 5 screws in 1953. So, I'm a little confused(easy to do with older Smiths) what do I have? The refinish job is needed, who does a decent job at a reasonable price. Any help will be appreciated.

Gary

Hi Gary,

The SCS&W is a little outdated on I frames and I'm working with Jim Supica to correct that in his upcoming 4th edition.

1. You have a ".32 Hand Ejector Model" built on the '5 screw' Improved center fire I frame, introduced in the 4th quarter of 1951 when the coil spring replaced the leaf spring and tension screw for it (the 6th screw). Yours shipped in the 1st half of 1952 with round front sight.

In 1953 the 5th screw, front trigger guard screw was deleted when the center fire I frames were changed to the 'New' I frame with 4 screws.

2. The 1953 change to the New I frame with the coil spring, deletion of the front trigger guard screw (the 5th screw), and deletion of the leaf spring and tension screw for it (the 6th screw), only pertains to the .22/32 I frames. They were never built on the Improved I frame, the 5 screw frame.

Full details here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/blog.php?b=103

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Here are a couple of .32 hand ejector model 1903 Targets. The top gun was shipped to Hamburg ,Germany in 1908. It has German proof marks on the cylinder, frame, and barrel. The bottom gun was shipped to Marcus Hartley in New York City in 1906. It has factory pearls and a checkered trigger.
Bill

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Wow, those are stunning!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim: I've got a 2", that may need some clarification same as above. Mine is an I Frame, round front sight, 5 screw and coil spring with a ship date of 7/1/52. I have heard this referred to as a "transition" model.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

That's a beauty! Same version as mine described and shown in post #65 above 3rd down on the left: Post war Trans. improved: rd gd, coil spring (this version has the same features as the early rd sight Baby J).

Some of the details from my commentary linked in post #82 above: http://smith-wessonforum.com/blog.php?b=103

"1. TRANSITIONAL I FRAMES c. 1946, leaf main spring w/strain screw on forestrap: several pre war parts and stocks are used. These are "5 screw" models, 6 screws in total counting the strain screw: round sight, small trigger guard and short rd grip frame or rebated frame w/sq butt stocks, (all reportedly have new style hammer block).


---- a) Pre war/post war: uses many pre war parts mixed with post war parts. Earliest Transitional models with more rounded top strap built on a pre war frame left over after the war. Transitional models can also be found with the newly made post war squared off top strap as well!
(includes the non-Model #’d 1957 issue 196 .32 Regulation Police Targets with leaf springs in the low #657XXX range).

.22/32s shipped as late as 1953, as many as 30 units produced in the pre war serial range 534533 – 534557, completed/updated from pre war inventory; post war production begins at 534587 and continues through 534636 building another 50 units.

.32s beginning as low as 521XXX (Two in this range recorded as shipped in 1948 and 9/49, may not have the improved style rebound slide operated hammer block reportedly begun at # 536,685; #537670 has it), up to #550740 highest # known.

.38/32 S&W beginning c. 1948 at # 54475; as high as 582XX w/rd top stocks and 6 screws.

---- b) Pure Post War "Improved” I Frames w/coil main spring: "5 screw" model, (6th screw, the strain screw, was eliminated), late issues, lowest observed # have ramp front sight and barrel rib. These are not pre models.

No .22/32s made in this model, they used a target frame and are so rare, they went straight from the post war "Transitional I frame" w/leaf spring to the Model of 1953 New I frame;

.32s (beginning at #554536, lowest # known shipped 12/51, #56362X has rd sight, #611398 highest known; lowest known ramp sight w/rib #60430X, c. 1953);

.38/32s (highest round sight 70XXX [#68,XXX 2/53], lowest known ramp sight 70131, 71983 shipped Jan. 12, 1954, highest known 738XX)......."

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Jim
S&WCA #819

There aren't enough likes to give out. I'm glad some wise guy didn't slip in a pic of a plastic bottom feeder, it could have caused permanent eye damage. If the S&W site hasn't made some calendars of such beauty's, they are missing out on some big $. My Mancave needs one badly. I'm saving up for a vintage S&W screwdriver.

Post war Improved I-Frame #557875 shipped August 17th, 1951. I believe this is the earliest shipped Improved I-Frame.It went to Firearms International Inc. in Washington D.C.
Bill

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That's a screamer!

Serial #s and shipping dates in my database agree with that shipping date.

Although the lowest numbered Improved I frame known is 554509 shipped 12/51, and has round top pre war style Service grips; clearly a late shipper.

Once again proving the anomalies of shipping dates vs. serial numbers order.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Here's a few of my I frames.

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James Redfield
LM #497

A .22/.32 Heavy Frame Target, shipped to Phillip F. Stephens,Rochester Gas & Electric Co.,Engineering Dept., Rochester N.Y. Shipped on July 25th,1927. It letters with a Call gold bead front sight and a large square notch rear sight. You can really get a good sight picture compared to the earlier tiny bead front and small U shaped rear sight. Times sure have changed.Imagine having your new gun shipped to your work place ("Hey fellas, come over here and look at my new gun.") Serial # 458494.
Bill

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Great looking revolvers guys, how many have a star by the serial numbers with the date stamped inside the frame on the left side. Mine is stamped 9.15.I believe it was when fitted with pearl grips. I'll get a pic on here soon. Mine is a .32S/W long. 1903.

A couple of .38/.32 Terriers. Nickel is serial #69832 and blue is #69534.
Bill

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bracebeemer, what a great pair! And the exact same early versions with round sights of the Improved I frame. Probably both shipped the same month, April 1953.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

32 Hand Ejector 535666

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The other side of 32 HE 535666

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Bill, thanks for adding the serial number so I may add it to the database. Just to again show the way S&W shipped out of serial sequence, here are all of the .22/32 HFT's that I have in my database beginning with 458. They did all ship in 1927, but all over the place.

458197 5-9-1927
458216 3-11-1927
458294 10-31-1927
458298 3-18-1927
458370 6-7-1927
458408 10-1-1927

Yours 458494 7-25-1927

458497 9-16-1927
458529 6-16-1927

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James Redfield
LM #497

A Smith & Wesson .32 Regulation Police Target. Shipped to the H & D Folsom Co., New York City on April 12, 1921. Serial # 337379.

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Absolutely gorgeous. I notice it has an even different front sight from all of your other target models. Looks like one of my triple Lock targets:



Do any of your targets have this super fine checkering treatment on the rear sight like this TL?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I have # 458XXX in my database shipped in 1925!?!?

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Jim
S&WCA #819