Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Smith & Wesson Revolvers > S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961
o

Notices

S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-12-2011, 11:59 AM
dacoontz's Avatar
dacoontz dacoontz is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 2,828
Likes: 368
Liked 1,171 Times in 373 Posts
Default "R" for round butt or refinish. Opinions requested.

Awhile back I picked up this pre-model 30. I was looking over it the other day paid a little closer attention to the markings on the frame. I had seen the "R" before but didn't pay much attention. Now I am wondering what it might really mean. I would think refinish but it isn't the standard refinish R I am used to. The R is on all parts minus the ejector star. There is no date stamping on th butt frame. Is this R for round or could this be the mark of a non-factory refinish. I should add that minus the double stamping of the S&W symbol I am not sure there are any indications that the gun has been refinished. Tell me what you think and help me understand? Thanks.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_6209.JPG (123.4 KB, 280 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6211.JPG (152.0 KB, 355 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6207.JPG (107.9 KB, 276 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6202.JPG (113.6 KB, 278 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6205.JPG (101.2 KB, 300 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-12-2011, 12:09 PM
VM VM is offline
SWCA Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: HoosieRama
Posts: 6,982
Likes: 2,396
Liked 3,853 Times in 1,401 Posts
Default

Daniel - The stamped "R" would make me think it was factory reblue but I can't imagine them double stamping the logo and leaving it like that?? (or the person paying for the reblue, accepting that!)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-12-2011, 12:38 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
SWCA Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 5,500
Likes: 917
Liked 6,393 Times in 1,311 Posts
Default

I'd suggest asking Roy about this. My guess, and its only a guess,
is that it has something to do with the gun being rejected, at some
point in the manufacturing process. One would think that double
stamping the logo is a no-no ! Perhaps there were other problems,
as well.

Usually, for a refinish, the marking would be something like R-S
with a box around it. The R would mean refinish, and the S would
mean the Service department.

Post the pictures and comments on the S&WCA side.

Regards, Mike Priwer
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-12-2011, 12:40 PM
Elroy's Avatar
Elroy Elroy is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 248
Likes: 241
Liked 462 Times in 99 Posts
Default

There are always a certain amount of manufacturing errors. With that double strike could the "R" possibly stand for reject??
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-12-2011, 12:51 PM
VM VM is offline
SWCA Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: HoosieRama
Posts: 6,982
Likes: 2,396
Liked 3,853 Times in 1,401 Posts
Default

The "R" for reject makes perfect sense with the double logo..........but why not just destroy it? I can't believe S&W would want the gun to leave the plant.
Daniel - this might be a good reason to letter a gun. It would be interesting to see where it went, if anywhere.......maybe an employee was allowed to buy it?? (if indeed it was a reject)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-12-2011, 01:04 PM
1 old 0311 1 old 0311 is offline
Banned
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,164
Likes: 0
Liked 109 Times in 53 Posts
Default

Gee. Doesn't anyone read their 'Bible?' R would not indicate refinish ( page 17)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-12-2011, 01:15 PM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
US Veteran
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The SW Va Blue Ridge
Posts: 17,474
Likes: 88,978
Liked 24,784 Times in 8,482 Posts
Default

"The R would mean refinish, and the S would
mean the Service department."

I believe that S is for Standard (blue).
__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-12-2011, 01:22 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

That's a beautiful example of the very earliset post war I frame with 1st type thumbpiece. Does it also have the pre war style stocks; maybe even silver medallions? If the letter request comes back with an "off the books" response, that may indicate the employee sale scenario or maybe even a lunch box special.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 11-13-2011 at 02:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-12-2011, 01:34 PM
keith44spl's Avatar
keith44spl keith44spl is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Red River Valley
Posts: 7,690
Likes: 13,045
Liked 28,605 Times in 5,151 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
a lunch box special.


That's what i was a thinkin' as well.

Like a lot of other things....Mother nature has a hard bosum.


Su Amigo,
Dave
__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-12-2011, 02:47 PM
ar15ed ar15ed is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: western north carolina
Posts: 1,068
Likes: 0
Liked 165 Times in 62 Posts
Default

alright, i am dangerous with my newfound s&w forum knowledge! that is actually not the earliest thumbpiece. the earliest was the "hourglass" with the undercut sides, then the "standard hourglass", then the latch in question, then the earliest flatlatches. also, the rear "flathead" screw would indicate magnas came on it, as opposed to service stocks. it actually looks kinda like it has a line where the magnas horns end at the top.
i apologize for jumping in with a minor disagreement, but i am always trying to gain knowledge on these little guys, and am slowly learning a thing or two, maybe!

it is a neat little gun!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-12-2011, 03:06 PM
sheriffoconee's Avatar
sheriffoconee sheriffoconee is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Watkinsville, GA
Posts: 1,844
Likes: 0
Liked 180 Times in 73 Posts
Default

I am throwing in with Keith44spl and others who support the "lunchbox" gun theory....that doublestrike would have consigned it to the meltdown pile..and if I worked there and saw that in the meltdown pile, it might have found it's way into MY lunchbox!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-12-2011, 05:21 PM
dacoontz's Avatar
dacoontz dacoontz is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 2,828
Likes: 368
Liked 1,171 Times in 373 Posts
Default

Thanks for the opinions gents. I will take Mikes advice and see what Roy has to say.

I like the idea of the lunchbox special. I don't have that caliber yet, or I didn't think I did. The gun has diamond magnas. It's the top one in the pic below.

I have a number if refinished guns and they all have R-S or R-N with the date stamp. Thanks for the opinions. I would never have thought of the reject idea. I bought the gun partially because of the double stamp as I thought it was unusual.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_4463.JPG (182.8 KB, 100 views)

Last edited by dacoontz; 11-12-2011 at 05:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-12-2011, 09:08 PM
SDH SDH is offline
Banned
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Montana
Posts: 2,142
Likes: 2,064
Liked 3,137 Times in 644 Posts
Default

She is a beauty no matter, Daniel...
and we can be sure the double strike happened at the factory.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-12-2011, 09:49 PM
SWSC SWSC is offline
SWCA Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 596
Likes: 581
Liked 924 Times in 225 Posts
Default

Possible a factory internal code for a refinish before the revolver left the factory for the first time. If the revolvers finish was marred on one area, barrel cylinder or frame it would have just one R on the part. If all three areas were marred and the revolver was disassembled for a factory refinish it may help in letting the finish folks know what to refinish and aid in reassembly of the revolver by serial number. The double strike is unusual. Maybe missed during final inspection?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-12-2011, 10:17 PM
1 old 0311 1 old 0311 is offline
Banned
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,164
Likes: 0
Liked 109 Times in 53 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacoontz View Post
Thanks for the opinions gents. I will take Mikes advice and see what Roy has to say.

I like the idea of the lunchbox special. I don't have that caliber yet, or I didn't think I did. The gun has diamond magnas. It's the top one in the pic below.

I have a number if refinished guns and they all have R-S or R-N with the date stamp. Thanks for the opinions. I would never have thought of the reject idea. I bought the gun partially because of the double stamp as I thought it was unusual.

'Lunch Box Specials' are cool. I have one. A 3" 36 NO DASH.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-12-2011, 10:20 PM
mikepriwer mikepriwer is offline
SWCA Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 5,500
Likes: 917
Liked 6,393 Times in 1,311 Posts
Default

Quote:
Maybe missed during final inspection?
Maybe, if the inspector was blind !

Regards, Mike Priwer
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-12-2011, 10:31 PM
sheriffoconee's Avatar
sheriffoconee sheriffoconee is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Watkinsville, GA
Posts: 1,844
Likes: 0
Liked 180 Times in 73 Posts
Default

Ray Charles could see that double stamp....I can't wait to see what the letter says!!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-12-2011, 11:22 PM
Sebago Son's Avatar
Sebago Son Sebago Son is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sebago Lake, Maine, USA
Posts: 5,435
Likes: 6,726
Liked 6,724 Times in 1,862 Posts
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith44spl View Post
".... Mother nature has a hard bosum. "
... and I can find no mark upon it.

I'm thinking that the "R" refers to "rework" and I bet this little gun contains a mixture of pre- and post-war parts.

This may be an example of a "make-do" gun fitted with clean-up parts as the "I" and "Improved-I" co-evolved.

What's the best estimate for manufacturing date?

Will sure be interesting to learn more...

Drew
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-13-2011, 12:46 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15ed View Post
alright, i am dangerous with my newfound s&w forum knowledge! that is actually not the earliest thumbpiece. the earliest was the "hourglass" with the undercut sides, then the "standard hourglass", then the latch in question, then the earliest flatlatches. also, the rear "flathead" screw would indicate magnas came on it, as opposed to service stocks. it actually looks kinda like it has a line where the magnas horns end at the top.
i apologize for jumping in with a minor disagreement, but i am always trying to gain knowledge on these little guys, and am slowly learning a thing or two, maybe!

it is a neat little gun!
Good eye! My mistake and simantics, thanks for your input, and that's how we have a discussion and share info. You're right in that the double houglass w/under cut thumbpiece is seen on some of the earliest post war models. But it's actually a pre war left over part. Therefore my reference, and to clarify the double hour glass w/o undercut being the "1st" post war 'new' design (double hourglass).
However, I was mistaken about the latch in question (my eyesight betrayed me...again), it's not the 1st design, it's the second or single hourglass. Then came the standard (that followed the flat latches after 1966), then the 3 versions of flat latches.

And correct about the stocks, it would typically have Magnas with the 2nd post war design thumbpiece.
Will send a PM with more detail.

Thanks,
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 11-13-2011 at 02:42 AM. Reason: Spelling...again.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-13-2011, 03:49 AM
walnutred walnutred is offline
US Veteran
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,452
Likes: 785
Liked 3,032 Times in 1,002 Posts
Default

If the R indicates a refinish it seems odd that the barrel would be marked as well. Wouldn't think a barrel would get separated from the frame as part of a reblue. I like the lunchbox special theory using reject parts. Not only is it logical but makes an interesting story as well.

Actually in thinking about it maybe this was a training gun. Remember that for most of the post WW2 era police departments could send their Armorers to S&W for training. In the more advanced classes you could build a revolver in any configuration you wanted as long as you used stock parts. After the revolver passed the final function test you took it home with you. It's easy to imagine a police armorer trainee double stamping his project revolver.

Last edited by walnutred; 11-13-2011 at 07:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-13-2011, 11:03 AM
dacoontz's Avatar
dacoontz dacoontz is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 2,828
Likes: 368
Liked 1,171 Times in 373 Posts
Default

The .32 Hand Ejector serial number 554536 was shipped December 1951. Haven't sent for a letter yet. Waiting to see what Roy has to say about the "R" first.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-13-2011, 05:27 PM
Gun-runner's Avatar
Gun-runner Gun-runner is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Western New York
Posts: 469
Likes: 56
Liked 18 Times in 13 Posts
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith44spl View Post
That's what i was a thinkin' as well.

Like a lot of other things....Mother nature has a hard bosum.


Su Amigo,
Dave
One piece at a time and it didn't cost me a dime??? ; )
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-13-2011, 06:19 PM
tom turner's Avatar
tom turner tom turner is offline
US Veteran
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,814
Likes: 180
Liked 2,270 Times in 285 Posts
Default

Whatever the outcome, it is a great lookin' specimen . . . and especially the double stamp!

Looking forward to what Roy might say!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-13-2011, 08:04 PM
raven818's Avatar
raven818 raven818 is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Jacksonville, Fl.
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Double stamped. I'd have to keep it till the cows come in. Although different for sure, it's that difference that would make be buy it.
Kinda like a double stamp coin.
__________________
Firearms and Saltwater Fishing
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-16-2011, 02:57 AM
Babalooie's Avatar
Babalooie Babalooie is offline
US Veteran
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Near Chi-town
Posts: 1,181
Likes: 215
Liked 194 Times in 100 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith44spl View Post
That's what i was a thinkin' as well.

Like a lot of other things....Mother nature has a hard bosum.


Su Amigo,
Dave
A modern "Cigarette Gun?"

I have seen Post War Walthers with no markings. They were called, "Cigarette Guns" because the workers would trade them with US GI's for cartons of cigarettes.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-16-2011, 03:48 AM
walnutred walnutred is offline
US Veteran
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,452
Likes: 785
Liked 3,032 Times in 1,002 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Babalooie View Post
A modern "Cigarette Gun?"

I have seen Post War Walthers with no markings. They were called, "Cigarette Guns" because the workers would trade them with US GI's for cartons of cigarettes.
A friends dad had a PPK with no markings he had picked up during the war. He told us that his unit had occupied the plant briefly and he was able to find all of the parts to build the pistol except for the grips, which he found after returning stateside. I mentioned this to someone in the 80's and was told it was not possible because the Walther plant was in the Russian sector, not the US sector.

However a few years ago in reading an article on the development of the 9x18 ctg I learned that indeed the Walther plant was occupied by US troops for a short time before the Russians moved in. So I was able to go back to believing the story without feeling patronizing.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-16-2011, 05:37 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

My dad had a similar experience in Italy. He and another platoon member were assigned to stand watch in a warehouse at the Berretta plant. They were sitting on crates and decided to see what was in them. Each crate held 24 brand new Berretta .380s. They loaded a couple of crates each into their jeep when they left in the morning. For the next couple of months they lived like kings with their 'trading stock'. He brought one home.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-16-2011, 09:07 AM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 8,598
Likes: 1,551
Liked 9,322 Times in 4,182 Posts
Default

OK, am I the only one excited about the serial number?? In an earlier thread, we thrashed out the idea of when the change-over to coil spring action, and this was posted at the end by two of our most knowledgeable afficianados on the subject;



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
I hate to upset the apple cart; my earlist Improved model 2" .32 HE with coil spring is # 574497.
End Quote

Apple carts have adapted to being upset.They expect it now.

I'm going to guess that we will eventually find an improved I-frame numbered between 565000 and 570000.
__________________
David Wilson


I think based on numbers discussed in that thread, we had about reached a consensus. Now we see a coil spring gun numbered 554536??? Don't we expect to see flat spring guns numbered as much as 10,000 or even 20,000 higher?? Could the "R" have stood for "Research" as in "Research and Development?" Then again, could it be that we were wrong about the relative ratio of post-War I-frames and that only about 20,000 (instead of 30, 000 - 40, 000) of the un-improved HE series guns were made? My head hurts!!

Froggie

Last edited by Green Frog; 11-16-2011 at 09:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-16-2011, 11:21 AM
dacoontz's Avatar
dacoontz dacoontz is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 2,828
Likes: 368
Liked 1,171 Times in 373 Posts
Default

Froggie,
Are you saying that from what you've seen and heard that this could be a very early coil spring gun?
Looking in the S&WCA databases, I see a few lower numbered pre model 30's but none of them have any info about a coil spring. There is one in the 537,xxx range that is listed with a strain screw.
Just so I am understanding, the improved I frames were made with first a leaf spring and then a coil spring. The question Froggie is putting up is when, or at what serial number, did that transition take place. Sorry if I am a little slow, still learning a lot about these smaller framed smiths.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-16-2011, 11:45 AM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 8,598
Likes: 1,551
Liked 9,322 Times in 4,182 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacoontz View Post
Froggie,
Are you saying that from what you've seen and heard that this could be a very early coil spring gun?
Looking in the S&WCA databases, I see a few lower numbered pre model 30's but none of them have any info about a coil spring. There is one in the 537,xxx range that is listed with a strain screw.
Just so I am understanding, the improved I frames were made with first a leaf spring and then a coil spring. The question Froggie is putting up is when, or at what serial number, did that transition take place. Sorry if I am a little slow, still learning a lot about these smaller framed smiths.
Daniel,

The so-called "improvement" mostly was the switch over to a coil mainspring. Who knows why! Anyway, the 537,000 range gun you cite was fairly soon after the small frame production was resumed after WW II, probably using up leftover pre-War frames and other parts. I own a specimen in the 553XXX range which is still a flat spring, and our previous discussions led me to believe, as posted above, it was one of the last 10-20,000 of the old style. Now I'm wondering whether it was one of the very last and yours is one of the first of the "improved" unless it is some sort of anomaly as previously suggested. The actual cut-off for the flat spring would now drop to about 554,000 if this was a hard interface, otherwise your example was really born out of time! Does anyone have an example of a post-War HE numbered above 554,000?

Froggie
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 11-16-2011, 01:29 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 8,598
Likes: 1,551
Liked 9,322 Times in 4,182 Posts
Default

"Curiouser and curiouser..." SCSW says that the improved I-frame came along in 1953, and included the dropping of the screw in front of the trigger guard, yet IIRC, my 600,000+ SN example still had the screw, even though the spring was changed and there was a 2nd type flat cylinder release latch. These must have been turbulent times in Springfield, MA!!

Daniel, does your revolver have the screw in front of the trigger guard?

Froggie
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-16-2011, 03:44 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
"Curiouser and curiouser..." SCSW says that the improved I-frame came along in 1953, and included the dropping of the screw in front of the trigger guard, yet IIRC, my 600,000+ SN example still had the screw, even though the spring was changed and there was a 2nd type flat cylinder release latch. These must have been turbulent times in Springfield, MA!!

Daniel, does your revolver have the screw in front of the trigger guard?

Froggie
It has to have the screw in the trigger guard because it has the 'rounder' trigger guard. The screw wasn't eliminated until the Model of 1953's egg shaped trigger guard. This is one of the examples of confusion caused by SCSW's use of "Improved I frame" terminology for both the Coil spring improvement and the Model of 1953 which was actually a "New" Model.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-16-2011, 08:32 PM
dacoontz's Avatar
dacoontz dacoontz is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 2,828
Likes: 368
Liked 1,171 Times in 373 Posts
Default

It does have the screw on the front of the trigger guard.

From a couple very wise opinions it looks like the "R" is simply respresenting a rework. The mystery I suppose will be what was reworked because I doubt they would refinish a gun and then leave the double stamp. Although maybe the double stamp happened after a refinish before it ever left the factory, thus the absence of a rework date anywhere on the frame. Is that a safe assumption???

Last edited by dacoontz; 11-16-2011 at 08:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-16-2011, 10:22 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacoontz View Post
It does have the screw on the front of the trigger guard.

From a couple very wise opinions it looks like the "R" is simply respresenting a rework. The mystery I suppose will be what was reworked because I doubt they would refinish a gun and then leave the double stamp. Although maybe the double stamp happened after a refinish before it ever left the factory, thus the absence of a rework date anywhere on the frame. Is that a safe assumption???
Daniel,

The rework R is usually stamped on all parts worked on or changed. The logo stamping is done before bluing, otherwise white metal could be showing in the bottom of the stamping impressions. Still no word from Roy yet?

Just FYI, technically you do not have a pre model 30. The term 'pre model' refers to guns that are the same configuration as the model marked guns but immediately preceeded the model # stamped guns. Therefore only the 3 & 4 screw Model of 1953 .32 HEs are actual pre model 30s.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 11-16-2011 at 11:56 PM. Reason: Tyop.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-16-2011, 10:35 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
OK, am I the only one excited about the serial number?? In an earlier thread, we thrashed out the idea of when the change-over to coil spring action, and this was posted at the end by two of our most knowledgeable afficianados on the subject;



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
I hate to upset the apple cart; my earlist Improved model 2" .32 HE with coil spring is # 574497.
End Quote

Apple carts have adapted to being upset.They expect it now.

I'm going to guess that we will eventually find an improved I-frame numbered between 565000 and 570000.
__________________
David Wilson


I think based on numbers discussed in that thread, we had about reached a consensus. Now we see a coil spring gun numbered 554536??? Don't we expect to see flat spring guns numbered as much as 10,000 or even 20,000 higher?? Could the "R" have stood for "Research" as in "Research and Development?" Then again, could it be that we were wrong about the relative ratio of post-War I-frames and that only about 20,000 (instead of 30, 000 - 40, 000) of the un-improved HE series guns were made? My head hurts!!

Froggie
Froggie,
No, you're not the only one excited about your 'eagle eye' observation and I apologize for not acknowledging it sooner! Your prophecy of finding a coil spring between 565000 & 570000 was not only on the right track, but exceeded!

I too believe the serial range of the leaf to coil spring change-over has now been narrowed considerably to between #553, XXX and Daniel's # 554, 536. Not to say that we won't find some overlap eventually but we now have a pretty small gap.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-16-2011, 11:13 PM
dacoontz's Avatar
dacoontz dacoontz is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 2,828
Likes: 368
Liked 1,171 Times in 373 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Daniel,

The rework R is usually stamped on all parts worked on or changed. The logo stamping is done before bluing, otherwise white metal could be showing in the bottom of the stamping impressions. Still no word from Roy yet?

Just FYI, technically you do not have a pre model 30. The term 'pre model' refers to guns that are the same configuration as the model marked guns but immediately preceeded the model # stamped guns. Therefore only the 3 screw Model of 1953 .32 HEs are actual pre model 30s.
Jim,
My bad, but what exactly would you call this one? And should I make the correction in the database as it is listed as a pre-30.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-16-2011, 11:47 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 8,598
Likes: 1,551
Liked 9,322 Times in 4,182 Posts
Default

#@%^#& lousy memory! The little HE I own is SN 550XXX. Now instead of narrowing things down to only 1000, we're back to 4000 units. Did I think of somebody else's 553XXX, or am I totally out to lunch?

Froggie
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-17-2011, 12:24 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacoontz View Post
Jim,
My bad, but what exactly would you call this one? And should I make the correction in the database as it is listed as a pre-30.
Nobody's bad, it's a very common assumption. You'd have to make a lot of corrections in the model base.

The model name of your gun is IMO:
".32 Hand Ejector Transitional Model (Postwar) Improved " which is incorrectly listed in the SCSW 3rd edition pg 127 as Pre-Model 30 and described too generalized on pg 423. The book actually introduces confusion because on pg 153 pre-Models are described differently and inconsistently. Pre models should mean the same thing regardless of frame size.

Background: (believe me, this is more than you ever wanted to know!)
Now don't get me wrong, the SCSW is a fabulous resource but has some misgivings with regard to I frames and I propose needs updating.

The larger frame Smiths have long been studied and dissected. Pg 153 clearly documents the result of the evolutionary path of N frames in 4 categories (which incidentally, are miss-numbered):
1. Pre war models up to 1941
2. Transitional Models (post war) '45 to c. '50
3. Post war, Pre-model c. '50 to c. '57
4. Numbered models beginning c. '57

The study of post war I frames was clearly neglected. Once I studied my own collection of post war I frames, I realized that those 4 categories also apply to them by substituting c. 53 in place of c. '50 and eliminates or at least largely mitigates the confusion and ambiguity of the I frames.

For example, SCSW's use of "Improved I frame" terminology for both the Coil spring improvement and the Model of 1953 which was actually a "New" Model is a major source of confusion.

So if one accepts and applies the above logic and descriptions of the 4 categories on pg 153, only the 3 & 4 screw Model of 1953 .32 HEs are actual pre model 30s. It also applies to all the other I frames of the period and is further supported by and is consistent with the nomenclature used for the .22/32 post war Kit Guns and Targets on pages 118 and 119.

Now I fully recognize that my suppositions are not supported by official model names as printed on box end labels or in catalogs. However, it has long been recognized and accepted that collector terminology be substituted for the sake of clarity and in fact is used and intertwined with factory nomenclature in the SCSW and other resources, i.e., 'Triple-lock' for the '.44 'Military Hand Ejector New Century', etc, etc.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 11-17-2011 at 01:34 AM. Reason: End of text was left off.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-17-2011, 12:46 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
#@%^#& lousy memory! The little HE I own is SN 550XXX. Now instead of narrowing things down to only 1000, we're back to 4000 units. Did I think of somebody else's 553XXX, or am I totally out to lunch?

Froggie
That's alright! 4,000 is a lot closer than 20,000!!
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-17-2011, 09:24 AM
dacoontz's Avatar
dacoontz dacoontz is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 2,828
Likes: 368
Liked 1,171 Times in 373 Posts
Default

Jim,
Thanks for the explanation. I suppose I should have reviewed that e-mail you sent me on the I frame evolution as that info is probably contained therein. So many complexities of these smiths.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 11-17-2011, 12:33 PM
Green Frog Green Frog is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central VA
Posts: 8,598
Likes: 1,551
Liked 9,322 Times in 4,182 Posts
Default

Well, these are turbulent times in the field of S&W collecting. More folks seem to be getting interested, either for the fascination with the arms themselves or for an investment strategy in a time of rapidly inflating currency. Prices are rising dramatically, sometimes without rhyme or reason. The examination of the progression and evolution of the I-frames has long been neglected as they were just the smaller, less flashy siblings to the classic Ks and Ns with their gun-writer generated mystiques. More interest in the I-frames from a historical perspective, overlain with the profit motive, will bring out more complete knowledge about them and probably cause the prices to jump at the same time. Oh well, at least I got a couple before the "gold rush" began, and maybe I can still find one or two more. Now how about if all of you quit looking for about 6 months to give me a chance to get a couple more key pieces?

Froggie
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11-17-2011, 12:59 PM
yukonb's Avatar
yukonb yukonb is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Catskill Mtns NY
Posts: 70
Likes: 2
Liked 35 Times in 9 Posts
Default

I have a 19-3 with an R stamped in the frame under the stocks. I contacted S&W if it was a reblue or repair stamp. They told me it was an in house manufacturing mark. Do not know if they gave me the correct info but that was the answer I received.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 11-19-2011, 04:10 AM
truckmizer truckmizer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default

About 10 - 15 years ago I bought a new in case in box 5 screw 44mag. The gun had a big R stamped on all the major parts. In the barrel channel, inside the yoke, on the yoke, on the back of the cylinder, and under the grips. The gun was new unturned wrapped in waxed paper, the tools where still wrapped in the brown tissue, all in the blue case in a grey card board box. the unexplaned Rs bothered me enough to trade it off. Rework, refinish, rejected, or an assembler's mark ?
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 11-19-2011, 10:40 AM
dacoontz's Avatar
dacoontz dacoontz is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 2,828
Likes: 368
Liked 1,171 Times in 373 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by truckmizer View Post
About 10 - 15 years ago I bought a new in case in box 5 screw 44mag. The gun had a big R stamped on all the major parts. In the barrel channel, inside the yoke, on the yoke, on the back of the cylinder, and under the grips. The gun was new unturned wrapped in waxed paper, the tools where still wrapped in the brown tissue, all in the blue case in a grey card board box. the unexplaned Rs bothered me enough to trade it off. Rework, refinish, rejected, or an assembler's mark ?
Interesting, did you record the serial number? It might be interesting to research that a bit.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 11-20-2011, 09:19 AM
truckmizer truckmizer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacoontz View Post
Interesting, did you record the serial number? It might be interesting to research that a bit.
No I don't recall the number. I bought from Bob's in Darian, CT and Sold It to Ron's Guns in Lyme, CT with the FFL from the shop I worked in. That shop changed hands and I left, and it has since gone out of business. At the least I can recall 21 4&5 screw 44mags have passed through my hands and I regret not saving any for myself.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 11-23-2011, 08:19 PM
durco durco is offline
Member
"R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested. "R" for round butt or refinish.  Opinions requested.  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 313
Likes: 5
Liked 30 Times in 14 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yukonb View Post
I have a 19-3 with an R stamped in the frame under the stocks. I contacted S&W if it was a reblue or repair stamp. They told me it was an in house manufacturing mark. Do not know if they gave me the correct info but that was the answer I received.
I have a pre-29 with an R under the left stock. I also have two pre-24's with a similar S under the left stock. I never thought much about them, since they were not framed by a diamond or a rectangle..... Mike
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ejector, hand ejector, lock, military, postwar, ppk, round butt, russian, scsw, sig arms, springfield, thumbpiece, transition

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Square Butt" or a "round butt" on a 629 stealth hunter ? tatif S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 5 04-15-2017 02:40 PM
2" Model 10 Round Butt Dream Project Opinions..... Zebulon S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 27 10-24-2012 11:39 PM
MOTHER OF PEARL INLAY GRIPS FIT SMITH&WESSON"J"FRAME ROUND BUTT"SEAL"#19 dajim_grips Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 4 12-09-2011 11:21 AM
""SOLD""J.Scott White Pearl J Frame Grips for Small Round Butt bulletproof-791 Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 1 09-08-2011 12:12 PM
***SPF***WTS Tyler "T" Gloss Black "K" Frame Round Butt ditrina Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 2 10-04-2010 09:00 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:37 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)