To shoot or not to shoot

[Elroy]

Elroy here, new member, first post.
Be kind but do not hold back. Seeking seasoned professional advise

Had the rare opportunity to purchase a 38 pre-model 10 that dates to about 1929.

Date determined by reviewing the treasure trove of information contained in these pages. Serial #563xxx

Blue 4" that is simply flawless!!! All numbers match but we have not removed the grips but we have no doubt they pencil match as well. Took this example to some of the better gun stores in town and they have graded it @ 98% only because we don't have the original box.

Pistol appears unfired but come on, surely it's had a few rounds in it at some point in the last 80+ years. The gentleman we purchased it from stated it was his Grandfathers weapon. He died in 1955 and claims it hasn't see the light day sense.

The question is: do we cycle it or do we put back in storage???

If you vote use it (like 6 or 12 rounds, I sure the hell am not going to pump a 50 round box through it) what kind of ammo would you recommend??

Copper jacket??

Lead wad cutter??

hollow points ???

What do you say??

We tried to snap some pictures but need some good light to really reveal the outstanding condition. Pictures to follow in the morning. Appropriate comments please

Value estimates would be appreciated as well and photos my solicit these response in time. Lets just say it wasn't cheap

[Frank46]

If your revolver was mine I"d sure as heck shoot it. Standard 158 grain round nose bullets or wadcutters. No plus P's or any other whizbang loads. Frank

[Dragon88]

Welcome to the forum. Please post a picture of your gun.

I say shoot it. And I'm not talking 12 rounds here, I'd say a few thousand would make up for not being shot since 1955. A cast bullet handload would be my choice. It's sounds like a very nice gun and I'm sure you'd like to keep it in top shape, but who are you saving the gun for? Shoot it and enjoy it.

[Elroy]

Originally Posted by Dragon88

Shoot it and enjoy it.

That is exacxtly what I want to do but then again what's going to happen to the value.

Is there such thing as a 1929 virgin ??

[DCWilson]

The presence or absence of a box doesn't affect the quality of a finish. A near-new gun is a 99+% gun whether it has a box or not. (I don't believe in 100% guns; that's an unachievable advertising claim.) The box is gravy when it comes to pricing the package, but that's another matter.

Without a box and provenance all the way back to 1929 (or whenever), you cannot guarantee that a gun is unfired or new. I'd say you might as well shoot it a little, but clean it carefully and well after every range trip. And when you handle it, be mindful of its unscratched surface. Never lay it down on hard surfaces; there's a reason why soft gun rugs and silicone pads exist. And while you are cleaning it, don't inadvertently whack the barrel on the table edge as you spin it around to detail every nook and cranny. I know this is common-sense stuff, but I have seen guns that I know were shot that look as though they had not been fired since their test rounds at the factory. And I have seen guns that were not shot much, but look as though they were dragged to the range and back. If you are careful, your gun will reflect your attitude and preserve a high value.

I have a 98% (in my estimation) almost new 1927 M&P in its box. I shot it. I have other high condition guns from 70-90 years ago that I have not shot, but that's not policy; it's just a crowded schedule or lack of opportunity. I refrain from shooting only those guns that came to me as unfired and with good evidence supporting that claimed condition.

And technically, your gun is not a Pre-10. It is a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 fourth change. These guns' descendants eventually became the Model 10, but most collectors reserve the phrase "Pre-10" for the short-action predecessors of the Model 10; those guns first appeared in 1948. Other collectors stretch the phrase to include all postwar K-frame .38 Specials with fixed sights, but I am not among them. All prewar fixed-sight K-frame .38 specials should be considered M&P revolvers.

And welcome to the forum. Apologies for the lecture, but you will find some very particular people around here. (At least their insistence on proper nomenclature is usually expressed in a cordial way.)

[Elroy]

Originally Posted by DCWilson

Apologies for the lecture, but you will find some very particular people around here.

No apologies necessary

Your description of being an M&P makes perfect sense and we thank you for the clarification.

Excellent input

Hopefully my pictures will reveal a fine condition example and we would solicit your further comments

A few "flash" shots

Day light views pending

[CapnHawk]

I believe Mr. Wilson has covered this topic thoroughly. Therefore, SHOOT IT!

[gaucho1]

Let me be the first to say

That IS Beautiful!!

Great find and very clear pictures.

You came to the right place.

[murphydog]

Since you are asking the question, you should shoot it.

A few cylinders-full of 158 gr RNL, as the factory intended. Handle and clean carefully as David suggested, then try to resist the temptation to fire more .

[bk43]

Most here would shoot it, I would not. That gun, that mint(hardly even has a turn line!) doesn't come along that often around here and there are plenty of well used ones on the market for cheap prices. Get one of those, shoot the heck out of it, and put it to work around the house.

My herd of S&W has both shooters and safe queens. That's what I chose to do and I don't apologize for either type. You should do what pleases you and what others think doesn't really matter as they're your guns aren't they.

Bob

[TACC1]

I cannot comment on shoot or not shoot, I'm not a collector.
That sure is pretty though! You sure introduced yourself well.
Your pics are excellent, too. TACC1

[redbos]

I might shot, I might not. But life is short, so run some rounds thru it and enjoy it, it is a very pretty gun and I hope you enjoy it.

Or, put it in the safe and buy a beat to death M&P and blast the heck out of it!

[steamloco76]

Sir, that is one beautiful 1905, 4th change that really does appear to be unfired. I am a shooter-collector, therefore I usually try for the 90 to 98% guns that have been shot. Knowing the gun isn't virgin means I don't have to agonize over shooting the piece as long as I am careful not to damage the finish. Some guns get shot a lot, some very little.

I would carefully wax your gun with either Renaissance Wax or Johnson's Paste wax, then take some 158 gr. LRN rounds and go to the range at least once. You'll make the artisans of old who built her proud.

[gripper]

Just a thought, but there were tens of thousands of M&P's produced and most have not stood the test of time as yours did. With that said, you can purshase a good shooter grade gun for a little of nothing and keep your mint gun the way it is. You CAN have the best of both worlds.

Chad

[firestrat]

Wow! That's a fine gun! Lots of good points made by both sides of the question.
It is rare to come across such an old piece that is almost pristine.
I guess if I was in your enviable position, I would ask myself a few questions.

How valuable is the gun in its' current state?

How much value will it lose if you shoot it?

Do I expect it to be put in a museum that only accepts the best examples?

Do I expect to keep the gun the rest of my life, and if so, what happens to it when I'm gone?

If the answers to the first and second questions add up to maybe a couple of hundred bucks and you plan on keeping the gun, is it worth having a beautiful gun and not shooting it just to keep a couple of hundred bucks?

I think my answers to these questions would lead me to putting a smile on my face by blasting away.

Besides, if you take good care of it, it should remain looking almost as good as it does now.

[getoff]

if your a collector, shoot for function, place in safe and think fondly about it every so often. if your a realist, shoot it, enjoy it, and think about its history. this is an awesome pistol and you should be proud to own it. i am very jealous!

[WildBillD]

Very nice. It was made to shoot, so I'd shoot it. And, I would shoot it a lot. There are probably exceptions to the shoot it rule, but I'm not sure what they would be. I don't buy guns as financial investments. I'm going to enjoy them while I can. I'll let my kids worry about what they are worth when I'm gone.

I have an 1892 Winchester 25-20 my grandfather bought new in 1917. It's not pristine by any measure, but I shoot it when I can find ammo for it.

[williamlayton]

It is a delima only you can work out.
Now----IMO/IN MY CIRCUMSTANCES/JUST ME---and I am not yelling just emphasizing----I don't own a non-shooter.
You can:
Sell it and get a shooter and pocket the difference.
Just get a shooter and put that one away.
The best option--again, IMO--just shoot the snot out of it and enjoy it.
I rarely sell or trade guns---just me---I can't get what I know they are worth, too me, and I already have them paid for.
I shoot all of mine and look for others I like so I can shoot them also. When I die my wife and kids will get them and what they do with them is their business--I will have no idea what happens.
You do it the way you want and say to heck with us if we frown.
Blessings

[Shooting Padre]

What is a gun for? Shoot and enjoy it.

[crsides]

The only thing "rare" about this gun is the condition. bump the stocks on a door frame or someone next to you on the range ejects a 30-06 casing your way, and then its just a nice old M&P.

I wouldn't shoot it. If it was my only hand gun, maybe a dozen down the tube. Buy yourself a duplicate with wear on it and take it to the range. It's nice to have an old shooter around you don't have to be so particular about. I collect some guns and shoot some guns, but I know the difference. This is a collector.


Charlie

[MSgt G]

Looks great. Shoot it or send it to me and I'll take care of it for you!

[rboineau]

If you decide to shoot it, one thing I would check is to see if either the hammer or the trigger is rubbing slightly on the frame/sideplate and might make bright drag marks on either part. Now the pre-war revolvers were MUCH better at having their hammers/triggers "centered" than more recent guns (always wondered why--guess earlier guns received more attention or maybe those internal bosses were better) but I do see pre-war guns with drag marks. So if you have any rubbing starting you might want to pass on shooting or dry firing.

If you only want to shoot a few rounds to see how it groups or how well the sights are aligned, you might want to "paint" a little grease--like RIG or some such--in between the cylinder notches every six rounds. Also grease the front of the cylinder, around the barrel protrusion and where it meets the frame inside the opening. This, I admit, is pretty anal but will prevent or minimize formation of a turn line or blast marks. Then shoot, as others have mentioned, light loads like factory wadcutters or standard round nose lead load(what the gun should be sighted for from the factory). By the way, some of you purists may wince at this, but careful application of cold blue--CAREFUL, I said--can blend down turn lines and muzzle edge brightening without looking "worked on". Only try it if your lines/edge wear are very minimal. Clean the metal, heat it some, and use a Q-tip barely moist with the cold blue solution. Works great on S&W's black; don't try it on the pale blue of pre-war Colts!

I had a 7" Registered Magnum w/certificate and box for years until the prices got crazy and people pushed so much $ at me that I sold it. It was unfired as far as I could tell, or close, and had sat in my display case for years. Every time I'd look at it I wondered how it shot. Finally after about ten years I could stand it no longer and took it out to the range. Shot 12 rounds through it at targets from a sandbag taking the above precautions. No deterioration resulted. But as an aside, it didn't shoot as accurately as my long 14 or even my 6" 586 (tried factory wadcutters and a particularly accurate handload of my own in the test) so I was kinda disappointed--and that made it easier for me to let go of it later.

[CajunBass]

Here's my standard. I don't have any guns I WON'T shoot. I do have a number of them I don't shoot.

I just don't rule it out.

[gunnut44]

Nice one there. Me I would try to find a mint condition box which will not be easy and try to put it all back as the way it left the factory though not original to the gun it deserves a box. I have some nice guns imo that I do not shoot not saying they have never been shot I just dont want to take a chance of damaging the stocks or putting a scratch on it then it becomes just another model ??. Your gun looks to be very mint so I would keep it that way, you can find M&P's all day long to shoot for not that much money but it is your gun and you can do as you please. Congrats on a nice find.

[Andy Taylor]

I'd shoot it. 158 grain LRN would be the load. Maybe 148 gr wadcutters, but I bet the sights are regulated for the 158 gr loads.

[alabamabarry]

shoot it...but i would replace the grips. the way those look will bring a good price.

[Elroy]

Originally Posted by alabamabarry

shoot it...but i would replace the grips. the way those look will bring a good price.

And what are a pair of grips like these worth??





It doesn't really matter as we're not about to part these out

[w10085]

If it were mine, I would not shoot it only becvuase it does not have a turn ring on the cylinder. The suggestion about greasing the notiches may keep it from wearing but I don't know. If it had the turn ring I would shoot it. It does appear to be at such a nice condition that you can make it look worse.

One poster may a great point though. What will eventually happen to the pistol? We are only custodians for a finite period of time. If you don't make sure somebody will eventually take care of it then you might as well enjoy it and shoot it.

I shot my original Springfield Model 1842 this week. I have no idea how long that has sat quiet but it was a blast! Congrats on having a great pistol!

[CALREB]

Its a beautiful old gun, that you or another collector appreciates for its age and condition it has survived in. WHY would you want to shoot it, just for shooting sake. If it was your only revolver, some target type model or maybe J Edgar Hoover's gun , some special reason maybe I would understand. Its not going to shoot any better than a model 14 or 15, and you risk its condition.
I think the fact that you ask others opinion,indicates that you really dont want to shoot it. I have the same guns in about 90% sitting in the safe, inherited it from the wifes side, I like looking at it occasionally, but have never been interested in how it shoots, to me its not worth the work to detail clean it after, when plenty of other models in 38 sitting there.
In my case , no kids, so the wife will probably sell everything, except the few she likes, when I go. But if you have someone you can leave that one to, after you ebjoy it , what a great collector it is. I look at guns in that type condition,if you got a deal on it , as an investment, that you can enjoy like a small art collection. My .02, Congrats, Bob

[DCWilson]

Originally Posted by 2761377

"If you vote use it (like 6 or 12 rounds, I sure the hell am not going to pump a 50 round box through it) ..."

you've answered your own question. 6 or 12 rounds is not using it, merely test firing.

two things make this revolver interesting, IMO. the condition and the square butt. according to 3rd SCSW the square butt adds a 100% premium to its value. it could become a centerpiece of an inter-war M&P collection or it could languish in a sock drawer for another 50 years. i think it deserves the former. and a serious Smith collector as an owner.

fwiw,

robert w.

Actually, this is one of those rare instances in which the SCSW got it wrong. The square butt is standard on 1905s; it's the round butts that are uncommon.

[Richard Simmons]

My two cents. Unless you've never fired a 4" S&W K frame and will never have access to another one then I say leave it as it is and take joy in the owning cause it won't shoot any different than most any other of it's kind.

[long colt frazier]

Originally Posted by gripper

Just a thought, but there were tens of thousands of M&P's produced and most have not stood the test of time as yours did. With that said, you can purshase a good shooter grade gun for a little of nothing and keep your mint gun the way it is. You CAN have the best of both worlds.

Chad

What Chad said. Tons of lesser quality M&P,s out there for cheap.
Mark

[Oyeboteb]

I would say do not shoot it.

But, if you want to be shooting a comparable Revolver, find a less pristine example of an 'M&P' of some sort, and with proper oiling cleaning and so on, shoot it, and leave this one be.

Shooting will be just as much fun with a less pristine one, and, no loss to posterity or to this Revolver then, from the things which reliably do happen, in use.

[moosedog]

Thats a mint gun. It's going to shoot just like any other model 10 will shoot. I'd find a box and tool for it, stash it away, and wait for a shooter to come along.
Just my two cents.

[Elroy]

Originally Posted by moosedog

I'd find a box and tool for it

Probably the smart thing to do

Have not made a decision on shooting it yet. We do note many here who advocate filling ones own desires and sure enough we want to go shot the hell out it but that's simply not going to happen

Any who we gave it a good cleaning and snapped a few more pictures for your viewing pleasure.

Its been opened and closed a bunch but there are no witness marks at the pin



we'll give up the serial number too:



Would we be accurate with our 1929 Dating ??
Nice detail of the S&W logo









Another question and we know this can really stir some debate and turns many people off. As stated we paid a "health sum" for this example. What would you consider as excessive?

We are NOT looking to sell but would simply like estimates and opinions on what this is worth on the open market??

In other words did I get screwed ???

[dewey]

Is there powder in some ( every other ) cylinder "holes"? If there is that's means it's never even been cleaned.......DON'T shoot it !
dan

[Firearmsrookie]

I am somewhat in your same boat. I have a pristine 10-5 that has only been shot very little. I don't shoot it much. I just like to look at that beautiful bluing! I have a 617, 19 and 66 that I use a lot more. Your gun is gun porn!

[Duke Aquaro]

In addition to shooting, I have several old cars. All work done by me. The car guys have the same issues. Drive them, or trailer them. In my case, if I have to tow it, it must be broken. If the car cannot be driven to a show, well, I don't want to own that one. HOWEVER, there are very rare cars out there and also very low mileage cars as well. I think in that case, they get trailered. BUT, not for me. I want to enjoy driving them, so I own cars that can be driven. I also own guns that can be shot. It is all up to the individual and what he wants to do with his possessions.

[A10]

I would probably keep it as a safe queen and not shoot it. It's just too pretty!

[paco04]

I personnaly would not shoot it. It's just too nice.

[Chasing Crow]

Elroy,
Having a nickel plated around same year I say shoot it. Smooth as silk and "soid as a Smith"!

[Elroy]

Thanks to everyone for their kind words and guidance both pro and con

But what about the date??

Originally Posted by Elroy

Would we be accurate with our 1929 Dating ??

[gunnut44]

The only real way to get a accurate ship date is to letter it, as for the value to me it's a $500-$550 gun, nothing rare but the condition.

[Avery11]

Originally Posted by gunnut44

The only real way to get a accurate ship date is to letter it, as for the value to me it's a $500-$550 gun, nothing rare but the condition.

WOW I'd like to be there when you sell some "common" guns

Elroy, I would buy it a wedding ring but I wouldn't shoot it. What a beauty.

[arjay]

I generally don't shoot my really nice examples as I have a number of shooters too.It just takes a lot of time to clean them up again.Stainless revolvers and the 1911 platform make the best shooters (imho) because they clean so easily.I vote to just fondle it :-)

[feralmerril]

For me it would depend on what other guns I have or dont have. If I had similar 38s or 357s I would make it a safe queen. If not, and I wanted to shoot, and pack it, I would. The only guns I dont shoot are a couple commemortives and some antique`s.

[Cooter Brown]

I don't own a gun I don't shoot. But if I had that one I probably wouldn't shoot it.

And here's why--in my mind it's worth preserving that almost mint condition as much as possible as a testament to and an example of what Smith and Wesson was producing at the time it was made. It really looks close to what it would have when it was handed to the original owner over the counter of the hardware store or wherever it was bought.

There are a finite number of guns on the planet that can serve as that kind of example.

You can certainly preserve the condition very well even if you shoot it, except for the turn line on the cylinder. It does not take a lot for that to start to appear. Of course that can appear without shooting it.

[Wingmaster]

That gun doesn't really even have a turn line. Please don't make one. My vote goes for DON'T shoot it. You aren't going to find a gun like this every day.

Wingmaster

[bushmaster1313]

Sell it to someone on the forum who already has plenty of guns they shoot.

Take the proceeds, buy several guns you will shoot, plus ammo, and have a ball.

Personally, I have no hankering for mint guns I will not shoot.

[Elroy]

Originally Posted by Wingmaster

You aren't going to find a gun like this every day.

I think I was a lucky boy alright

There were (3) guys looking at and I was the first one to offer up the funds that I thought the owner would bite at. I was looking for a clean revolver and to find out it was from about 1930 made it all that much better.

Originally Posted by gunnut44

The only real way to get a accurate ship date is to letter it, as for the value to me it's a $500-$550 gun, nothing rare but the condition.

I might letter at some point but that's exactly where I was at. $500

I'm kind of a dumb *** when it comes to fire arms (it's a big subject and there's a LOT to know) but I know good machine work and craftsmanship in metal. This thing's like a jewel and I couldn't be happier.

All I need now is a GOOD 1911 with about 90 years on it in the same shape

Been looking at the various "commemorative" models and this is the year to buy one but they're all over the place and they're not cheap. As a matter of fact, I think most 45's are over priced.

Like I said, I know I'm a lucky boy. Hope to keep it up. I appreciate all the kind words.

We're still on the fence about shooting it but I can't really see what harm a few rounds is going to have on it. I'll be damn if an 80 year old gun hasn't been fired at least a few times.