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  #501  
Old 09-07-2013, 02:38 PM
dangt dangt is offline
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I'd like to add my pre-Victories and one Victory to data base:

687046 4 inch bbl, polished, commercial blue finish. All serial nos. match including grips. Grips are checkered walnut with silver medallion. 38 S&W ctg. NOT marked South Africa. Usual Brit export marks.

707885 6 inch bbl, finish is, I think, brushed blue. At least 85% plus finish remains and it is not as high a luster as , for instance, the 4 blued revolver above. Non-matching grips. P marked on butt and four small dots forming a square or parallelogram. Usual Brit. Export marks. No US property mark.

938830 5 inch , 38 S&W ctg. Suncorite finish. Gun is loaded with markings. Butt is marked with Canadian C with Broad Arrow, flaming bomb, and P.. Near grip hump on right is FTR, not dated. Curious mark shown in my photo above trigger guard on right that is somewhat similar to the Suncorite finished gun on page 110 of Charles Pate's book. This mark possibly was added after the Suncorite finish as the paint looks chipped by the marking. All serial nos. match including the smooth walnut grips. I thought this surprising on an FTR gun! No US property mark.

986995 4 inch, 38 Special ctg. Sandblast Black finish . No property marks. No proof marks outside.

V1372 4 inch, 38 Special ctg., came to me with an awful, worn, ill-polished blue finish that I assume was applied by surplus arms dealer. Non-original grips. Gun now has sand blast blue finish. No flaming bomb. No property marks. All serial nos. except grips match.

Pics of the Suncorite finished gun:






Pre-Victory, 38 Spec.(above) , and V1372 (below)



another shot of V1372, right side.

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  #502  
Old 09-28-2013, 04:07 PM
brigham33 brigham33 is online now
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Default Some more numbers/dates for the data base

Received letters back on three victories.

982936 4" 38 Special, shipped to the US Maritime Commission in San Francisco May 25 1942.

V589874 5" 38/200 shipped to the Hartford Ordinance Depot, for Eastern region Lend/Lease. Shipped May 9, 1944.

V191467 4".38 Special shipped to the US Navy Oakland CA on 28 December 1942.

Rick
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  #503  
Old 09-28-2013, 05:07 PM
ordnanceguy ordnanceguy is offline
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I'd like to add my pre-Victories and one Victory to data base.
Dangt:

I missed your post the first time around. Sorry. I want to thank you for providing the data and the pics on your very nice collection of pre-Victory and Victory revolvers. This information will go into the Victory Model Database, which depends on collectors like you freely sharing your data.
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  #504  
Old 09-28-2013, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by brigham33 View Post
Received letters back on three victories. Rick
Hi Rick:

Thanks for sharing the valuable information on your three Victory Models. That shipping data really helps us to refine the accuracy and completeness of the Victory Model Database.

Would I be correct in assuming that V191467 has U.S. NAVY marked on the left top strap?
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  #505  
Old 09-28-2013, 07:45 PM
brigham33 brigham33 is online now
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Originally Posted by ordnanceguy View Post
Hi Rick:

Thanks for sharing the valuable information on your three Victory Models. That shipping data really helps us to refine the accuracy and completeness of the Victory Model Database.

Would I be correct in assuming that V191467 has U.S. NAVY marked on the left top strap?
Hello Charlie, Yes its Navy marked as I recall.
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  #506  
Old 09-29-2013, 04:44 PM
Todd582 Todd582 is offline
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I have just come to own a S&W Victory Model 38S&W.All matching numbers. Serial number is V2956xx. It has the flaming bomb and US Property with appropriate inspector initials. Parkerized. Can provide pictures if necessary. I am new to the forum and hope to read and post as necessary.
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  #507  
Old 09-29-2013, 04:50 PM
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V2956xx probably has mid-1943 as a shipping date. In .38 S&W, it would have been one made for the British Commonwealth. You do not give a great deal of descriptive information or a picture of yours, and that would be helpful. It should have a 5" barrel length, measured from the cylinder face. A huge number of these had their barrels chopped short, and chambers re-bored to accept .38 S&W Special ammunition back in the 1950s and 1960s, along with other undesirable modifications. Here's some general information about WWII victories: http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/v...and_wesson.htm
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  #508  
Old 10-17-2013, 06:18 PM
augshoots augshoots is offline
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Default Victory to add to DB

I recently traded for this Victory revolver so I would have one to work on while taking a gunsmithing certification course. I researched the serial number and was surprised to learn of its history. The serial # is V245686. It does have the letters HD stamped before the V on the butt, but perpendicular to the serial number. Given the lack of any property or ordinance marks, I am guessing it was a British lend-lease. It is in decent shape in terms of function and shoots well. The only issue is that is was chrome or nickel plated at some point. I have never read that these were plated at the factory. I was considering having it stripped and a more original looking finish applied. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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  #509  
Old 10-17-2013, 06:57 PM
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That's a good one for your purpose, as it has no collector value. It was probably shipped around March 1943. Neither the finish nor the grips are original. You did not give the caliber stamping on the barrel, but if it is .38 S&W, it would have been for the British. But if so, at that time, it would have had U. S. Property stampings on the top strap (indicating Lend-Lease). With the 4" barrel, as shown, my guess is that it was a .38 S&W Special DSC contract revolver intended for stateside service (police, defense plant security guards, etc). Those would not have been property stamped, and would have been chambered in .38 S&W Special. There are other possible explanations.

No good idea as to what the HD means, but it could have been the initials of a company indicating that it was the property of a defense contractor.

See the link on the posting above yours.

Last edited by DWalt; 10-17-2013 at 07:08 PM.
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  #510  
Old 10-17-2013, 07:34 PM
augshoots augshoots is offline
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Thanks DWalt! Actually, the barrel is stamped 38 S&W CTG, so its not a 38 special.
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  #511  
Old 10-17-2013, 07:46 PM
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That being the case, and as the barrel, frame, and cylinder SNs match, it's strange that it has a 4" barrel (5" was typical for .38/200 revolvers) and stranger still that there are no "U. S. (or United States) Property" stampings on the top strap, nor any inspector markings. Possibly they were buffed off prior to plating, and the barrel shortened. Can you tell if the chambers have been bored out to accept .38 Special cartridges?
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  #512  
Old 10-18-2013, 09:20 AM
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Default I thought so, too

Hi Dwalt. I also thought it strange that the barrel seems short. It is very hard to tell if it was shortened, though. If it was, it was expertly done. The chambers measure .387 at the back, and .357 at the front. The back end of the chambers are not relieved. I took a close look to see if there are any remnants of stamped letters. I did find the remnant of an "S" to the left of and below the caliber markings on the barrel. Curious, isn't it?
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  #513  
Old 10-18-2013, 10:01 AM
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The simplest test for a re-bored chamber is to see if a .38 Special cartridge can be inserted into the chambers completely.
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  #514  
Old 10-22-2013, 06:56 PM
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Default need info ..

I came across a s&w 38 and am looking for info on it .. the numbers on but are v410xxx i believe it is a 2" barrel and rough walnut handle no insignia of s&W on grip i want to say it is double action with a firing pin( new to this ) numbers on inside of gun are d14717 thats all that is on it .. any info would help thank you .. glad i found the forum
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  #515  
Old 10-22-2013, 07:05 PM
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I came across a s&w 38 and am looking for info on it .. the numbers on but are v410xxx i believe it is a 2" barrel and rough walnut handle no insignia of s&W on grip i want to say it is double action with a firing pin( new to this ) numbers on inside of gun are d14717 thats all that is on it .. any info would help thank you .. glad i found the forum
You really should post a picture. Very few Victories left the factory with a 2" barrel, and are highly desirable as a result, but a huge number of the British Victories (.38/200) had their barrels chopped shorter and chambers re-bored to accept .38 Special cartridges after the war. A correct 2" barrel will have an extractor rod support lug affixed to the barrel beneath the muzzle. A chopped barrel will have no lug. So it's easy to tell which you have.

That serial number (V410xxx) would have shipped around September 1943. The other number means nothing, just a parts assembly marking.

Last edited by DWalt; 10-22-2013 at 07:10 PM.
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  #516  
Old 10-22-2013, 07:25 PM
needinginfo needinginfo is offline
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no lug on barrel .. shame .. well anyways what would the value be on it? im a little low on rent and am maybe looking into selling it to cover a little of what i owe
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  #517  
Old 10-22-2013, 07:39 PM
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no lug on barrel .. shame .. well anyways what would the value be on it? im a little low on rent and am maybe looking into selling it to cover a little of what i owe
Unfortunately, not very much. The only value it has is as a shooter. In a private sale, maybe $200. To a dealer, much less. Virtually no collector would be interested in it.
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  #518  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:39 PM
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Default DSC Victory Model

Mine is a civilian issue DSC piece that went to the Forth Worth PD in May of 1944. Everything about it is clean and tight and the action is typically butter smooth. Still would like to find out what it's worth if anyone knows...

Oh, and I got it in a trade for a No. 4 Enfield that I paid almost nothing for
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  #519  
Old 10-28-2013, 07:21 PM
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Default Smith & Wesson US NAVY Victory model

Smith & Wesson US NAVY Victory model SN V122480 on all parts. Grip has 3 notches.

does anyone have an idea how much this revolver is worth?
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  #520  
Old 10-28-2013, 10:09 PM
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It's not in the greatest condition and the grips are from a considerably earlier period than the likely shipping date of late 1942. Also, the holster is not military. Nonetheless, Navy-marked Victories are very desirable. I'd say $600.
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  #521  
Old 10-28-2013, 11:37 PM
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Default Lend Lease

Thought I'd check mine in:

V165078
Flaming bomb; GHD; "P" V165078 on butt
United States Property on Left Top strap
38 S&W CTG
Matching SN's: barrel, cylinder, ejector, butt, crane (inside facing cylinder)

Stocks are checkered with S&W medallion as furnished on pre victories. SN on right stock is 727158.

Left stock has 7 notches carved into it. Not a good practice to do this in a combat theater...

The 88 year old Army Veteran that brought this back said that the stocks, as they are today, are exactly the way they were when he got the revolver. He found this revolver early May 1945 when going through German POW personal gear that was lefty behind after the prisoners were shipped out. He took it and brought it home.

I asked him about the notches and he said that his buddies told him to ditch it because if he was caught the Nazis would shoot him on the spot. He said he wasn't worried since all of the Germans he saw were heading west by the hundreds.

Still chambered in .38 S&W and no British proof marks.

What was the approximate ship date on this one?

Many Thanks!
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  #522  
Old 10-29-2013, 12:48 AM
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Shipping date is likely to be in late 1942. Most did not have any British markings. Some basic information on Victories and markings can be found here: http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/v...and_wesson.htm
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  #523  
Old 10-29-2013, 01:08 AM
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That holster is one of the infamous clamshells that came out around mid-century. The hinge was spring loaded so that the holster would snap open at the press of a button for a lightning fast draw, and the swivel was so that the officer could tip the muzzle up and out of the way when getting into vehicles. Stories circulated that kids were sneaking up behind officers and pressing the button to watch the weapon fall out, but a more likely scenario was that officers were accidentally pressing the buttons themselves. In any event, a collector might pay good money for yours.

Last edited by roundels; 10-29-2013 at 10:26 AM.
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  #524  
Old 10-29-2013, 01:55 PM
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DWalt,
Thank you for your assessment, this revolver was handed down to my father by his father in 1969 and now it is mine. should the grips have the same serial number on the inside of the grips because there are no numbers there at all. I am adding a few more photos.
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  #525  
Old 10-29-2013, 01:59 PM
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Roundels,

thanks for that info on the holster, I would never sell it as it will go to one of my grandsons someday. it is cool however and with the exception of a few too many mars and an open wear spot near the top it works well. it allows the revolver to be pulled straight up into the firing position without pulling up and then extending it.
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  #526  
Old 10-29-2013, 03:41 PM
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Default Navy Victory Letter

Just wanted to include my Victory I found earlier this year. The revolver is not a prestine example and shows use! But use that I feel is indicative of use in WWII. I have not made a copy of the Letter from S&W yet, but will this weekend. I do have a couple of photos of the revolver. The information provided by S&W is as follows:

"We have researched your Smith & Wesson .38 Victory Model, United States Navy Contract, caliber .38 S&W Special, revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun, with serial number V116134 was shipped from our factory on October 6, 1942, and delivered to United States Navy, Norfolk, Va. The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with a 4 inch barrel, military midnight black finish, butt swivel, and smooth walnut non- monogrammed grips."

Although the "midnight black finish" is well worn, she is still in excellent condition. This revolver was used, fired little, carried a lot , and clean! Here are some photos of the Victroy.
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  #527  
Old 10-30-2013, 05:53 PM
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Greetings,

Just joined this forum and this is my first post. Wanted to add my two Victory models to the database.

1. Serial# V147186. Black finish and inspector's initials of WB or WF near ordnance symbol.

2. Serial# V151350. Black finish with inspector's initials of WB near ordnance symbol.

Picked these up in 1997/1998. Forgot who had them for sale (SOG?) but I remember they were a pretty good deal. Would like to know if anyone knows when these may have been made. Thanks.

Greg
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  #528  
Old 10-30-2013, 08:04 PM
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Both the above were shipped in late 1942, likely in November. How are they marked?
Some good information on Victory markings is to be found here: http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/v...and_wesson.htm

Last edited by DWalt; 10-30-2013 at 08:24 PM.
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  #529  
Old 10-30-2013, 08:16 PM
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Although the "midnight black finish" is well worn, she is still in excellent condition. This revolver was used, fired little, carried a lot , and clean! Here are some photos of the Victroy.
As your finish is not so hot, I do not think re-Parkerizing it would hurt value (military midnight black is a phosphate finish similar to Parkerizing), and would certainly make it look like new. And you can do it yourself. There is a recent posting on this subject involving a Navy Victory. Renewed Victory As you may know, Navy Victories are among the most desirable of the breed.

Last edited by DWalt; 10-30-2013 at 08:27 PM.
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  #530  
Old 11-01-2013, 03:02 PM
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Default Pre-Victory

Here is another contribution to your Victory list. It is serial # 985XXX , has parkerized finish , marked "US PROPERTY" , butt marked WB and flaming bomb stamped.I display it with a short "Tanker" holster ,issued to armoured vehicle crews.Victory data base-smith-wesson-victory-model-002-jpg
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  #531  
Old 11-01-2013, 03:08 PM
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Correction to Pre-Victory. Stamped "UNITED STATES PROPERTY".
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  #532  
Old 11-03-2013, 07:40 PM
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Default New Navy Victory bought today at Gun Show

Hello,
I just picked up a Navy Victory missing Lanyard ring but is still very tight and the finish is missing from the gun and has some pitting.

The grips match the serial on the gun but they are not the smooth grips but rather they are checkered factory originals so this throws me off as all the ones I have seen are smooth?

I would like to refinish it but not sure what finish is correct for the serial number which matches thru out the gun V196311 I bought it for $216 with the tax and it has a 4" barrel was this a fair price for it?
Thanks

Last edited by navy_chief; 11-03-2013 at 07:55 PM.
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  #533  
Old 11-03-2013, 10:37 PM
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Yours would have shipped in the late 1942-early 1943 period. I'm unaware of any of the Victories having original checkered grips as you describe. It's possible someone checkered the original smooth grips. There has been quite a bit said here about refinishing Victories by Parkerizing. See: Renewed Victory It's the finish used for most of the WWII revolvers, which S&W called "Military Midnight Black." It's not a difficult operation to perform yourself, and there are Parkerizing kits available from several sources if you want to try it. Google "Lauer Weaponry" for some information, but there are others. http://lauerweaponry.com/index.cfm?f...tegory_id=1036 Or Google "Brownell Parkerizing Chemicals." http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod24778.aspx

You might provide a picture of what the grips look like. Navy Victories are very desirable, and if its cosmetic condition is already poor, refinishing using Parkerizing is a good way to go. Replacement smooth grips and lanyard rings are not difficult to find, and not very expensive. Look for them on eBay. You did well on the price.

Last edited by DWalt; 11-03-2013 at 10:49 PM.
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  #534  
Old 11-03-2013, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by navy_chief View Post
Hello,
I just picked up a Navy Victory missing Lanyard ring but is still very tight and the finish is missing from the gun and has some pitting.

The grips match the serial on the gun but they are not the smooth grips but rather they are checkered factory originals so this throws me off as all the ones I have seen are smooth?

I would like to refinish it but not sure what finish is correct for the serial number which matches thru out the gun V196311 I bought it for $216 with the tax and it has a 4" barrel was this a fair price for it?
Thanks

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  #535  
Old 11-03-2013, 11:28 PM
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Last grip pic

As stated the serial number matches the pistol on the inside of the grip


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  #536  
Old 11-04-2013, 01:05 AM
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The design pictured is very similar to the standard grips used by S&W during the 1920s, yet not quite identical. At least that's my impression. It's certainly not the commercial style used by S&W throughout the 1930s and early 1940s. I have to believe that, if the SN on the grip panel matches that of the gun, someone probably applied checkering to the original smooth grips.

You are right - the revolver's appearance would be greatly enhanced by Parkerizing.
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:43 PM
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3 to add:

M&P 966792 - Australian D^D marked, FTR in 1955. Topstrap marked "United States Property" WB marked on butt. .38 S&W

Victory V389684 - US Property GHD on topstrap .38 Special

Victory V570313 - US Property GHD Osterreich Polizei Marked .38 S&W
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by coogan View Post
3 to add:

M&P 966792 - Australian D^D marked, FTR in 1955. Topstrap marked "United States Property" WB marked on butt. .38 S&W

Victory V389684 - US Property GHD on topstrap .38 Special

Victory V570313 - US Property GHD Osterreich Polizei Marked .38 S&W
Those would have shipping dates from (approximately) 4/42, 9/43, and 4/44, respectively.
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Old 11-16-2013, 03:53 PM
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I have a Victory model. V 521962 on the butt, underneath the barrel, and rear of the cylinder. Barrel measured from the front of the cylinder is 2.5".

The cylinder chambers are larger than a 38 special case. I bought some 38S&W brass and some .360 or .361 dia (can't recall which) cast bullets from Missouri Bullet co. esp for 38S&W. Measuring a fired bullet reveals a base diameter of .356 to .357, so I'm assuming I can use regular 357 dia bullets in my barrel.

There is a P proof mark on the left side of the frame near the hammer, Several BNP stamps with a crown above, a G1 and the numbers 7-2-3-66 appear under the crane.

It has the cheap imitation stag grips I see on a lot of these, probably installed by the importer? The side plates etc show a lot of "polishing"-more like grinding and the rollmark is half the normal depth. Any enlightenment?
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Old 11-16-2013, 09:21 PM
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Yours was likely shipped in early 1944. As described it is highly likely a "Chopped and Bored" British .38/200 Victory. In the 1950s and 1960s, numerous surplus arms importers took .38/200s, had the barrels cut shorter and also had the .38 S&W chambers reamed to accept .38 S&W Special ammunition. Refinishing and replacement grips are also common. You should see if your chambers will completely accept .38 Special ammunition.

These have no collector value, but would be OK as shooters. Surprisingly, a couple of weeks ago, I personally saw one sold for $300, and the purchaser actually knew what he was buying. I wouldn't be interested in one at any price, but some people evidently do see value.
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:34 AM
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Default Victory info

Would a civilian or Defense Supply Comm. Victory be stamped with the Flying Bomb?

Can the Flying Bomb be the only stamping on the gun for it to be considered military property or dose it have to be stamped with inspectors initials or something like US property also?
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Old 11-17-2013, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
Yours was likely shipped in early 1944. As described it is highly likely a "Chopped and Bored" British .38/200 Victory. In the 1950s and 1960s, numerous surplus arms importers took .38/200s, had the barrels cut shorter and also had the .38 S&W chambers reamed to accept .38 S&W Special ammunition. Refinishing and replacement grips are also common. You should see if your chambers will completely accept .38 Special ammunition.

These have no collector value, but would be OK as shooters. Surprisingly, a couple of weeks ago, I personally saw one sold for $300, and the purchaser actually knew what he was buying. I wouldn't be interested in one at any price, but some people evidently do see value.
I traded for this gun and think I made a pretty good deal. Mine will accept 38 special. I was under the impression that 38S&W ammo was ALREADY larger in diameter than 38 special. Were the 38S&W chambers short-bored with a shoulder that stopped the 38 special's longer case? Otherwise I don't understand the need to bore it out for 38 special. When I fired 38 special in it the cases swelled a lot. 38 S&W cases don't swell much. Thank you for the information.
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Old 11-17-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mtrmn View Post
I traded for this gun and think I made a pretty good deal. Mine will accept 38 special. I was under the impression that 38S&W ammo was ALREADY larger in diameter than 38 special. Were the 38S&W chambers short-bored with a shoulder that stopped the 38 special's longer case? Otherwise I don't understand the need to bore it out for 38 special. When I fired 38 special in it the cases swelled a lot. 38 S&W cases don't swell much. Thank you for the information.
You are absolutely correct that the .38 S&W cartridge has a slightly larger diameter than the .38 S&W Special. .38 S&W chambers have a step in them at the case mouth position, and at that point the chamber diameter decreases enough to disallow the complete chambering of a .38 Special round. Therefore, the chamber must be bored more deeply to admit the longer .38 Special cartridge. Such modified chambers will then accept both cartridges. However, fired .38 Special cases will show a slight bulging due to their sloppy fit in the modified chamber. This is not considered unsafe, but some believe that split .38 Special cases may result. I have not found that to be the case.
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
You are absolutely correct that the .38 S&W cartridge has a slightly larger diameter than the .38 S&W Special. .38 S&W chambers have a step in them at the case mouth position, and at that point the chamber diameter decreases enough to disallow the complete chambering of a .38 Special round. Therefore, the chamber must be bored more deeply to admit the longer .38 Special cartridge. Such modified chambers will then accept both cartridges. However, fired .38 Special cases will show a slight bulging due to their sloppy fit in the modified chamber. This is not considered unsafe, but some believe that split .38 Special cases may result. I have not found that to be the case.
So I take it that one of these guns in otherwise good shape is safe to fire normal 38 special rounds. This clears up a lot of doubts I had. And since my barrel seems to be sized for 357 bullets. When I saw how the 38 special cases swelled, I stopped using the specials and went to 38S&W. Thank you for clearing this up.
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:05 PM
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In general, standard .38 Special cartridges should be OK. I wouldn't use +P loads. Even if a case splits (I've never had that happen in a Victory, but have in other revolvers), it won't do any damage. As these modifications were done in many places (none of them S&W) it might well be possible to find a rechambered Victory with really sloppy chambers that could be more prone to case splitting.

.38 S&W might group a little better than .38 Special, the downside being the availability difficulty and cost of .38 S&W ammunition.
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Old 11-19-2013, 03:54 PM
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Default Defense Contractor Victory for the data Base

Not sure if had entered my pistol in the data base or not. S/N is V16147. It has to proof or property marks. The only other marking is "261", which I'm assuming is a rack number for the contractor. Any info you experts have would be greatly appreciated. My best guess, based on the five digit S/N is 1942. The grips are checkered without medallion and are serialized/ matched to the pistol.

Additionally, I am considering another Vic, a Navy, S/N 120188. Again, any info is greatly appreciated.
Thx guys.
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Old 11-19-2013, 04:08 PM
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Hello Caren:

Thanks for providing the data on your Victory. Where is the "261" number marked on the gun? Are there any butt markings besides the serial number? The stocks that were shipped on this revolver were originally the smooth walnut type.

From the Victory Model Database, which my pal LWCmdr45 and I administer, I can estimate for you that your Victory likely shipped in the June, 1942 time frame.

On V120188 am I correct in assuming that it has "U.S. NAVY" marked on the left topstrap? From the Database I can estimate for you that it likely shipped in the October, 1942 time frame.

I hope that information is helpful to you.
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:12 PM
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Thanks for responding so quickly. The "261" is on the blackstrap. Pic attached. I thought something was a bit unusual with the grips. The inside of the right grip has the serial number but as you can see, it looks like a home checkering job since the diamond is too small and is off center. My uneducated suspicion is that the right grip was the original smooth and at some point , it was checked. Can't seem to add more than one photo.
Oh, no other butt markings except the S/N. There is no lanyard loop, just a "button".
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:15 PM
Caren Caren is offline
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Here's a pic of the right grip. Looks like a home made checker job to me.
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:19 PM
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Here's a pic of Victory S/N 120188. I have not seen the pistol in person yet. Supposed to meet the owner in 2-3 days. I don't know what's on the top strap. Do you think this might have been one of the early 2 shipments to the Navy. One of 85,000.
Thanks for all your help.
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