No problem, I am happy to help.

Just out of curiosity how many revolvers do you have in your database? How many have factory letters?

Justin:

I am away from my computer which has the Database loaded onto it, but the last time I bothered to check the totals it was somewhat under 10,000 entries. I would have to run a search to determine how many entries have factory letter data but my off-hand guess would be about 20% or so.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

I have a non-S&W Victory .38 SPL, 2" barrel, has Made in U.S.A. on frame but the cylinder has stamped on OD England once with crowns stamped between each round. S/N V651363 is stamped on the rim surface and butt. Under the extractor pin on the barrel is stamped .38" x .767" then something like M/G/8/0 then a Crown with BNP and 3 1/2 Tons. The stock looks like wood bark and have the s/n 154253. The lanyard hole has been plugged, finish matches the blueing of the rest of the frame.

I'm guessing it was made in England and imported at some point.

This was my Dad's, worked at the Sands or one of the casinos in Las Vegas when he first retired from the USMC in 1966, knowing my Dad he got it at a pawn shop.

I saw a S&W Victory at a gun shop today sparked my interest in mine. My s/n would or would not be inline with S&W's?

Sorry my camera will not take close ups of the stampings.

Donald

Yours is a Victory .38/200 from mid-1944, made for military use by the British Commonwealth. It was not made in Great Britain, but by S&W in Springfield MA. They were imported in large quantities from England in the years following WWII, mainly the 1950s and 1960s. The marks you see were applied to these revolvers before they were released by the British military for commercial sale. It was originally chambered for the .38 S&W cartridge (NOT .38 S&W Special). However, the importers performed terrible atrocities on many of these .38/200s, such as shortening barrels and rechambering the cylinders to accept .38 S&W Special, and bluing and nickel plating are not unknown. Such molested Victories have no collectible interest. If the SN on your grips does not match that on the butt, they are not original to the gun. The 2" barrel indicates one which was chopped from the standard 5" length. You might check to see if the chambers will accept .38 Special cartridges. If so, it has also been re-chambered.

Some pictures and a better description would elicit a more complete response.

Hi,

I'm new to the forum, so apologies if my question has already been asked in the FAQs.

I'm trying to identify a pistol that belonged to my grandfather, who died 22 years ago. I believe he got it in the early 1960s at the latest. The numbers match (728776), but there isn't a "V" anywhere. Under the barrel when I swing the cylinder out is the number 6 05 30, which in later models would be a model number, I assume. The barrel is only 2.5 inches, measured from the front of the cylinder, and there is no lug. Interestingly, this pistol does not chamber .38 Special. It almost fits, and can be forced in, but it is obviously chambered for a slightly shorter cartridge.

There's no sign of "Smith and Wesson" on the left side of the barrel. If chopped (which I think it may be), the "Wesson" ought to be visible. The front site looks professionally done. I can find no sign of a re-import stamp, nor have I been able to locate any "S" proof or military acceptance markings, and there is no lanyard swivel, although one could have been removed; it's hard to say for sure.

Any ideas would be most welcome!

Brad

See the previous posting, where a revolver similar to yours was discussed. Yours is a pre-Victory .38/200 from early 1941. The barrel has been shortened from its original length, and it's highly likely the chambers have been reamed to accept .38 Special cartridges. Very few of these military revolvers were made with 2" barrels, and those that were have an underlug on the barrel ahead of the extractor rod.

I have to wonder if the 2/14/40 date given in the foregoing factory letter is correct. That seems really, really early for that SN. Maybe it's a mistake and the correct date should be 2/14/1941, which I could believe. I'd expect something in the 67xxxx-68xxxx SN range at most for February 1940, as that's around the time of the first British orders.
Can anyone verify the letter's correctness?

The factory shipping ledgers are the original source for shipping data. No one, except Roy Jinks at S&W, has access to the shipping ledgers for this time period.

However, I will say that the Victory Model Database does show numerous examples of pre-Victory revolvers in this serial range shipping in the early part of 1940. There are other examples in this serial range that show as shipped in 1941. Nevertheless, I'm going with Roy on this one.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

It's interesting that the letter indicates shipment was made to the British Purchasing Commission. I can't find a great deal of hard information about the BPC, but it seems that it actually was not established in the US until November 1939, and mainly went through organizational structuring until the Fall of France occurred in May 1940, at which time it was activated to fulfill its purpose. Exactly what it did during the late-1939 - May 1940 period is not well documented. Therefore shipping of revolvers to the BPC in Feb 1940 seems a little premature, although I suppose it could have happened. Second, the usual date given for the inception of S&W British revolver production (of the South African contract of 2/40) is given as March 11, 1940, nearly a month after the shipping date stated.

Hellstrom's notes indicate that by 4/41, SNs had reached about 750,000. So are we to believe that there were only about 35,000 revolvers made between 2/40 and 4/41? That would be only about 3,000/month. It's highly doubtful that production was this low.

I also located another factory letter indicating that SN 715765 was shipped to the BPC on 11/25/40. That I can believe.

In light of all this, I still believe there is something fishy about the 2/40 lettered shipping date to the BPC.

I just picked this one up V 139166.
Has a 4" barrel all the numbers match cylinder barrel and frame.
It is chambered in 38 special.
Has a brushed/satin blue finish?
The magnas on it are un numbered and the front sight had been replaced.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

I saw this Victory for sale in a gun store today.

Serial: V364444
Caliber: .38 Special
Configuration: Phosphate finish, 4" barrel, smooth walnut stocks that did not fit correctly. Lanyard ring removed
Markings: US Property on left side of top strap. I do not recall if there was "GHD" stamped anywhere.

At that SN, G.H.D. should have been stamped on the top strap also. It would be from mid-1943.

Here's a few for the data base.

Four incher is SV 775869 shipped Jan 1945

Snub nosed one is serial number SV 800295. Unknown who did the barrel but suspect it might have been done by a military armorer.

Attached Images

	Victories 005 (Medium).jpg (67.0 KB, 48 views)
	Victories 010 (Medium).jpg (67.8 KB, 55 views)
	Victories 024 (Medium).jpg (89.6 KB, 53 views)
	Victories 015 (Medium).jpg (38.9 KB, 44 views)
	Victories 025 (Medium).jpg (45.1 KB, 48 views)

"but suspect it might have been done by a military armorer."

What's your reason to suspect that?

Serial number is V 727806, which I understand is late 1944 or early 1945. It has nickle finish and bone grips, which may not be factory. Question is, What is the purpose of seeking a factory letter?

My new Victory 5" barrel prints high with what I`ve been feed`n it. 158grns RNFP over a minimal charge of Vithavouri N320.
Also tried a 125grns FP copper coated ball over a moderate charge of HP38. Well they both give deasent groups but prints high. So my question is; What is the factory hight of the front sight when the barrel is 5"...? I supect someone has previousley been on it with a file.!

If the front sight height has been altered, it should be very apparent. It will have a flat top surface, not rounded. Depending upon the condition of yours, that sight enhancement would have a negative effect upon value. And it's not easily reversible.

Personally, I would leave it alone, and if further efforts to tailor a load which will shoot more closely to the point of aim are unsuccessful, I'd just make a mental adjustment to the sight picture.

Thought I would add my Victory to the data. S/N on butt by lanyard ring: V339249. S/N on frame under crane: 82767 and slightly slanted to the right. S/N under barrel is same as on the butt. The crane has the same slanted 82767. Recoil shield seems pristine with no signs of battering from recoil.

Attached Images

	Victory.JPG (125.0 KB, 26 views)
	Victory1.JPG (117.7 KB, 25 views)
	Victory2.JPG (124.9 KB, 23 views)
	Victory3.JPG (122.4 KB, 23 views)
	Victory4.JPG (123.7 KB, 25 views)

Another 5 pictures.

Attached Images

	Victory6.JPG (122.6 KB, 21 views)
	Victory7.JPG (124.6 KB, 21 views)
	Victory8.JPG (126.3 KB, 16 views)
	Victory12.JPG (122.8 KB, 14 views)
	Victory10.JPG (129.0 KB, 21 views)

That one would have left the factory in mid-1943. Does it have the typical topstrap property markings? The 82767 numeral stampings are just assembly numbers with no significance. It appears original. Have you checked to determine if the chambers have (or hopefully have not) been bored to accept .38 Special cartridges, and that all SNs match (including grips)?

There's no purpose for you to spend $50 for a factory letter, as it will tell you nothing of interest. Yours has been heavily modified and has no value other than as a shooter.

Another small piece of data for your data base. Victory 982936 (pre "V") was sent to the United States Maritime Commission in San Francisco on 25 May 1942. No markings other than usual S&W and serials. (Jinks letter)

Another LGS Victory

Serial: V373156
Caliber: .38 Smith & Wesson
Barrel: 5"
Finish: Reblued
Other features: "US Property GHD" marked on the left side of the top strap. "P" stamped on butt. No British markings noted.

That one shipped in mid-1943. Have you checked to determine if the chambers have been bored to accept .38 Special cartridges? Being reblued is definitely not a good sign. If you have not bought it, don't - unless it is priced cheaply.

Here's mine:

Serial number: V518164
Caliber: .38 Special
Barrel: 4"
Markings include: "U S Property G H D" on left side of topstrap
"Made in USA" on right side of frame
Has lanyard ring
Grips have black or deep blue (?) finish mostly worn away

I have no intention of buying it; certainly not at the tagged price of $599! I was just listing it for the database.

Early 1944.

Here's info. for my Victory for the database, let me know if you need any more info. I'll be happy to help out. Will be sending off for a letter sometime after the new year.

Please help with info. on this 38 S&W special revolver for my grandmother

__________________
5

Courtesy of Mr. Jinks

Sorry it took me so long to contribute. This gun is all original with matching numbers, etc. 4" barrel, stocks have S/N stamped. Hopefully the pics clear up any questions about the markings. The only flaw is the flaming bomb imprint on the butt just before the V isn't complete, but it is clear to see what it is anyway. My info shows a date of 1942-1945. Not that I would sell it, but I estimate the value around $600-$800 due to excellent condition.

Hope this info helps. And btw, thanks for gathering & saving this information--so much has been lost, but an effort like yours can rebuild & recover that lost info. I wish you the very best!

Attached Files

	Victory1.pdf (141.4 KB, 79 views)
	Victory2.pdf (136.3 KB, 40 views)
	Victory3.pdf (145.2 KB, 40 views)
	Victory4.pdf (89.5 KB, 57 views)

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AGM-28
S&WCA 3711, S&WHF 809

Some clear shots of the S/N, etc.

Attached Files

	Victory5.pdf (87.5 KB, 27 views)
	Victory6.pdf (136.5 KB, 17 views)
	Victory7.pdf (86.1 KB, 42 views)
	Victory8.pdf (87.3 KB, 52 views)

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AGM-28
S&WCA 3711, S&WHF 809

DWalt, Thanks for the site link--interesting. I wish I could find more info about the markings. For example, I'm pretty sure the flaming bomb was applied by some ordnance place, but would like to know who, where, & when. I'm sure I have that marking on at least one other gun in my collection, but it would take forever to find it. (Another mil gun, not a Smith)

On the other hand, there is a small circle with some "stuff" on top printed just before the U.S. Property mark. This looks factory to me, but I can find no mention of what it means. Just more mysteries for me to pursue before I'm dead & gone. These mysteries seem to be adding up--perhaps I should stop eating bacon...

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AGM-28
S&WCA 3711, S&WHF 809

There's nothing unusual about the flaming bomb. Just another Ordnance acceptance stamp applied at the factory.

New here Hope i'm doing this right. 1st time poster. i've got 5in V 6516xx Smith Top of Barrel (bomb) U.S. property G.H.D.
Left Side-Barrel (Mark) 38 S&W CTG (mark)
left side frame TRADE MARK -made in U.S.A.
cylinder each bullet flute has BNP (plus) crown

Right side Barrel Smith & Wesson BNP (crown on top ) .38 .767" 3 1/2 Tons
Right frame BNP crown on top left top next to cylinder
P to the right of cylinder on frame left of trigger are crossed swords H left I center B right
Top of barrel S & W Springfield,Mass U.S.A
Feb 6.06 Sept 14,09, Dec 29,14
V 6516xx In all three place Match back of cylinder
has v 6516xx P
Checkered grips # right rear 313459 if they belong to
that Victory number i will trade
Gun in great shape seams all original parkerized finish any info. on ship date etc. would be appreciated

Attached Images

IMG_0748.JPG (104.9 KB, 48 views)

Hounddog:

Thanks for your comments, and also for the good pics and complete serial number. We can't do much in the Database with partial serials or those with XXXs.

The "circle" marking on the left top strap is actually an Ordnance Dept. "shell and flame" insignia, or flaming bomb in common parlance. It signifies that the revolver has been inspected by an Army Ordnance inspector.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

DWalt- Thanks for the timely input . The chambers are not rearmed ,and i'm almost positive finish is original. I,m Humbled, this piece of History found it"s way to me. A keeper for sure. Great info found on this Forum

Wondering about this Victory. SN. V79544. approx year? Has U.S Govt property. I have not seen another with that on back strap. all numbers match ( frame, grip, ejector, barrel, cylinder) it is .38 S&W spl. Nothing on top strap. Gun is very tight lock up. Thanks!

I can think of several possible reasons, but have no personal knowledge to substantiate them. As the revolver has no "United States Property" topstrap marking consistent with its mid-1942 SN, my best guess is that it was a DSC revolver procured for civilian guards at a government-owned defense plant. There were quite a few government-owned plants operated by contractors (GOCO), and plant guard forces may have been provided government-supplied weapons. One facility with which I am very familiar was the Indiana Ordnance Works (later operated under other names) near Louisville KY, which manufactured smokeless powder throughout WWII and even into the Vietnam era. Although it was a completely Army-owned facility (operated mainly by E. I. duPont during WWII), there were very few military personnel ever stationed there. And there was a large civilian guard force, as it covered an enormous land area. I know nothing about their armament however. But it's almost certain that it would have been U. S. property, not duPont's. Virtually every piece of equipment on the plant, large or small, was marked as being government property, with a property inventory number.

Thank you sir! Its actually my sons and he is going to send off for the history.

Likely there will be no information provided from S&W other than it was sent to the Defense Supply Corporation, along with a shipping date. Most WWII factory letters concerning Victories are not particularly helpful, but you never know.

Your experience must be different than mine. I own a few DSC guns and have seen dozens of letters and all of them specified the recipients. Not DSC but the Sheriff or Police Dept or defense plant that actually received the guns. The DSC had to authorize the shipment but, in most cases, I believe the guns were shipped directly from S&W to the authorized purchaser and the shipping records will reflect this. Below is one example.

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Here's the letter I received regarding my DSC Victory model,

I disagree. I find the WW2 Victory Model letters to be particularly interesting and helpful, and they are a primary source of information for the Victory Model Database. I have lettered almost all of the Victories in my own collection, and I always encourage other collectors to do the same.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Just grabbed one at a local pawn shop for $300.

Looks to be parkerized, blue ejector rod.

US Navy on topstrap. It does not have a "P" marking on the frame as I expected.

Serial Number is V2218XX.

Looks to be in nice shape and mechanically sound. Only problem is the lanyard is missing and the grips (which don't match) appear to have been shellacked with a glitter based shellack...ugh. At least those are easy fixes.

Hello Professor:

Thanks for providing the info on your Navy Victory. You got a good buy there.

From the Victory Model Database it appears that your Victory likely shipped from the factory in the January, 1943 time frame. The P-proof markings on the upper left frame don't begin to show up on Navy-shipped Victory Models until about January, 1944.

Hope that info is helpful to you.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

I am looking into the age of a friend's S&W
Here's the info on it.

SN: V25367
Left side of barrel: Smith & Wesson
Top of barrel: Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass. U.S.A. Patented FEB.6.06.SEPT.14.09.DEC.29.14
Right side of barrel: 38 S&W Special CTG
Right side: S&W trademark and MADE IN U.S.A

It has a nickel finish with what looks like fake stag horn stocks.

Thanks for any info in advance.

Attached Images

image.jpg (88.0 KB, 24 views)

That SN would date shipment from mid-1942 (probably June-July). Without U. S. property markings, it likely was intended for stateside use by law enforcement or defense plant security. Neither the nickel plated finish nor the grips are original. It would have little to no collector value as it is not in original condition. But it may well be a very good shooter.

Just bought my first Smith & Wesson revolver this last weekend at a gun show. The seller had it marked as a model 10 and it had a set of Hogues on it. I looked at it long enough that the dealer spontaneously came down $60 on the already ridiculously low price. I got it home and took off the grips to find a SN of V236042. A little attention and some oil has cleaned it up nicely and you can clearly see Navy property marks on the topstrap, though they are fairly light to the naked eye in regular light. Another member has already set me up with some correct grips and maybe a lanyard ring. Couldn't be happier.

I do have to take some better photos of it though.

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	006aa.jpg (83.4 KB, 59 views)

There are several Victories known having SNs fairly close to yours which shipped in February 1943, and there are many Navy-marked specimens known around that SN. So yours is likely original. Smooth grips and lanyard rings are not too hard to find and not expensive. That's a great item to find at a "ridiculously low price."