I am waiting to pick up my Victory serial number V28328. The serial number is on the butt, the barrel, the cylinder, and the right stock. No flaming bomb on the butt. No marking on the left hand top strap. .38 Special four inch barrel. I will post pictures when I pick it up.
As long as you are sure that the finish is original and no markings have been buffed off, that might be a good candidate for a letter. With a relatively early, low V-prefix serial from summer 1942 and no military markings of any kind, pretty much anything is possible (including boring stuff, of course ).
As for the backstrap stamping, "Sk. Fürth" stands for "Stadtkreis Fürth". You've figured out that Fürth is the city, in Northern Bavaria. A Stadtkreis, no longer in existence today, back then was an administrative unit, sort of like an urban county. What the stuff behind that means, I cannot fathom; maybe a letter/Roman numeral code for a sub-unit of some sort.
HEGE Jagd & Sport is a sporting goods dealer which got started in Schwäbisch-Hall in 1959, dealing in military surplus weapons; nowadays they do mostly muzzleloaders and blades and are best-known as a big Uberti distributor in Northern Europe, now located in Messkirch.
I look forward to hearing about the letter. Despite no topstrap marking, I don't see this gun shipping to a defense contractor stateside, since the DSC guns were actually sold to their recipients; it's hard to see how such a gun would end up issued by the US occupation authorities to local police in Bavaria in 1945.
There is nothing in German law that requires importer marks; HEGE slapped their stamp on all surplus guns they sold back in the 60s. I guess the gun could have gone back to the US after occupation service and then be re-exported to Germany, but I would think it more likely that HEGE bought it out of some German police armory as surplus in the 60s, had it proofed at Ulm for public sale, and then it ended up at the rod and gun club where the AF employee purchased it.
Thank you.
I'm happy to know the SK's translation. I was stationed in West Germany and Germany in the 80s and 90s and traveled to Fürth several times but had not heard the term Stadtkreis.
Hege, the company of Herr Friedrich Hebsacker, moved several times during his lifetime and was eventually bought by Dr. Waldemar Gorzawski. The Hege company records were reportedly lost during the company handover to Dr. Gorzawski so there's likely no possibility of determining why or how the gun was sent to West Germany.
Perhaps Roy's letter will give me a clue of where to begin a search on this side of the pond.
Here are a few photos that show some seemingly extraneous markings on the right and left side of the grip. The S on the right side is the only one I'm familiar with. Here's also a full shot of the left side showing all the German marks.
Hi, I have a Victory to add. I got this gun 30 years ago while in the Air Force, paid $50 for it.
Serial number: V 363788
5 inch barrel
38 S&W CTG
5 screw and strain screw
wooden grips with serial number stamped on back.
Behind the yoke above the assembly number is the letter M
No other markings on gun, any info is appreciated.
Hi, I have a Victory to add. I got this gun 30 years ago while in the Air Force, paid $50 for it.
Serial number: V 363788
5 inch barrel
38 S&W CTG
5 screw and strain screw
wooden grips with serial number stamped on back.
Behind the yoke above the assembly number is the letter M
No other markings on gun, any info is appreciated.
Hello.
You have a former British Service Revolver from 1943. The lanyard hole has been plugged, and the gun has been re-finished in blue. If there are no other markings visible, the US PROPERTY G.H.D. on the left topstrap was likely removed during the refinish, as a BSR with that serial has to have had that stamping. Have you checked whether the .38S&W chambers of the cylinder have been converted to .38 Special? Just insert a live .38 Special round. If it goes all the way in, it's converted. That happened to many of these.
Hello.
You have a former British Service Revolver from 1943. The lanyard hole has been plugged, and the gun has been re-finished in blue. If there are no other markings visible, the US PROPERTY G.H.D. on the left topstrap was likely removed during the refinish, as a BSR with that serial has to have had that stamping. Have you checked whether the .38S&W chambers of the cylinder have been converted to .38 Special? Just insert a live .38 Special round. If it goes all the way in, it's converted. That happened to many of these.
Thanks for the information, it has not been converted. I shoot it every once in awhile, enjoyable to shoot.
Hege, the company of Herr Friedrich Hebsacker, moved several times during his lifetime and was eventually bought by Dr. Waldemar Gorzawski. The Hege company records were reportedly lost during the company handover to Dr. Gorzawski so there's likely no possibility of determining why or how the gun was sent to West Germany.
........
One more thing you may already have figured out, but HEGE's stamp was obviously placed over the milled-out original US occupation stamp. I pasted your picture next to an original below. The placement and dimensions are identical, and US authorities in Bavaria did stamp the issued Victory revolvers and M1 carbines in English with "Bavaria Municipal Police" or "Bavaria Rural Police"; yours would have likely been the former.
One more thing you may already have figured out, but HEGE's stamp was obviously placed over the milled-out original US occupation stamp. I pasted your picture next to an original below. The placement and dimensions are identical, and US authorities in Bavaria did stamp the issued Victory revolvers and M1 carbines in English with "Bavaria Municipal Police" or "Bavaria Rural Police"; yours would have likely been the former.
No, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for filling in another piece of the puzzle.
You always want what you can't have... I would have much preferred to have the Bavaria ... Police stamping to Herr Hebsacker's! Sure nice to know that's the likely sequence of stampings, though. Thanks.
I shot a new picture of the back strap today. Perfect light for my goal. Between the photo and Barbara's persistence to crack codes (using a powerful, lighted magnifying glass) the mystery might be solved. In context Barbara's solution makes sense, but then again, it begs the question, Why? In a post-war scenario, who knows?
Fürth is in Bayern (Bavaria). The capital of Bayern is München (Munich). If you look at the stamp in the new photo and consider that the stamp may not have been done well (i.e., the tops of the letters didn't print), can you "see" Mün ?
Reaching, but it's a possibility.... Beats anything I came up with.
......
Fürth is in Bayern (Bavaria). The capital of Bayern is München (Munich). If you look at the stamp in the new photo and consider that the stamp may not have been done well (i.e., the tops of the letters didn't print), can you "see" Mün ?
....
That's a possibility. Another one that just occurred to me reading your interpretation, and that is less of a reach, I think, would be "Mun" for municipal, which would go with the presumed milled-out side stamp.
Yes! Certainly more plausible. I had reservations about the abbreviation for the state's capitol being stamped there. Your thought makes far more sense. Thanks.
Hi all. I own a few classic firearms but this is my first foray into revolvers. I opened up the can of worms... you all understand
I came across this at a local gun shop. I took a picture but it was already back in the case and I did not know exactly all the spots to look. Anyway, I thought this piece was interesting but after digging around I am finding some of the markings do not add up to what is generally posted about the Australian guns.
On the butt, the top says "Made in Australia". The middle has a V prefix serial number 2324X. Bottom says Liberty Arms xxxx (Corp?). Most I have found show Vega Sac and one other as an importer but little about Liberty anything. Couple other proof markings on the front there but it was back in the case and I couldn't get a good shot. Looks like a P.
On the side, it is interesting to me. I wanted to impulse and buy this gun but I don't know enough about them yet. From muzzle to back, the barrel is about 5" and says "38 S&W CTG". On the left strap is "United States Property" I want to say it said "US Government Property" but I can't remember and I don't see any reference to seeing that anywhere else. Probably just me going crazy.
Where it says Made in USA; look close, the USA is punched out with 3 good punches, one on each letter. Then right above, USA is stamped again as if someone made a mistake and then corrected it. Above that, there is A /|\ F. Usually, there seems to be D/|\D is stamped there. Under that, you have the Crown 30 L marking which seems pretty common. Then another arrow. What is missing is the rebuild stamp that is on every other post I have seen about the Australian guns (ex, FTR\MA55).
Under the Smith and Wesson logo is (very faintly in the picture) what I think is another "XXXX XX Australia". I have seen a single reference where someone said there is a stamp for "Rebored in Australia" for when the guns were bored for .38 Special but I can't tell if this is that marking or not.
Nothing special in the Yoke area, under the trigger guard is another /|\ arrow. Number on the butt, under barrel, and cylinder match. I did not see one on the ejector star (that I remember) and I did not take the grip off to look there.
Any help would be appreciated. The mystery is interesting and I may end up owning it anyway. I wanted a cool gun that was definitely one I could shoot but I am not too familiar with the 38 S&W cartridge. The gun is in good shape overall with the only pitting I saw being on the lanyard.
My neighbor's S&W Victory was converted (before he got it in England, late-60's) to 22. It's SN is V 769240, and is a good shooter. Any idea of its date of mfg or ship?
My neighbor's S&W Victory was converted (before he got it in England, late-60's) to 22. It's SN is V 769240, and is a good shooter. Any idea of its date of mfg or ship?
That gun is from the end of 1944 or January 1945 and falls right at about the time when the new hammer block was introduced and an S added to the prefix. The change is generally said to have occurred at approximately V 769000, but the one you describe apparently does not have an S. There was a transition period and a delay until the guns with the new safety actually started shipping.
Hi, a friend of mine just picked a US Navy marked Victory model. My question is , did they make a US Navy marked, with a 2 inch barrel? His is a 2 inch barrel, seems to be right. I will get the serial number tomorrow and ask him if it is a matching gun. I know it is marked on the top left of the top strap. Is there any special things to know to be sure it is correct? Thanks
Hi, a friend of mine just picked a US Navy marked Victory model. My question is , did they make a US Navy marked, with a 2 inch barrel? His is a 2 inch barrel, seems to be right. I will get the serial number tomorrow and ask him if it is a matching gun. I know it is marked on the top left of the top strap. Is there any special things to know to be sure it is correct? Thanks
Not that I know of, but I cannot say for sure. If all SNs match and the under-barrel lug support for the short extractor rod is there, it could be one. Pictures would be great. And a letter would certainly be in order.
Nice. And we weren't too far off with our Nov./Dec. 1943 guesstimate. U.S.M.C. gun seem to have a tendency to ship a bit later than one would expect from the serial; I had one I sold a few months ago which should have shipped in about Nov. 1942, but didn't until April 1943, to the U.S.M.C. at Reading, PA.
PS: If you're interested in what the Maritime Commission was up to during the time when it received your Victory, this pdf. makes interesting, if a bit dry, reading:
Nice. And we weren't too far off with our Nov./Dec. 1943 guesstimate. U.S.M.C. gun seem to have a tendency to ship a bit later than one would expect from the serial; I had one I sold a few months ago which should have shipped in about Nov. 1942, but didn't until April 1943, to the U.S.M.C. at Reading, PA.
PS: If you're interested in what the Maritime Commission was up to during the time when it received your Victory, this pdf. makes interesting, if a bit dry, reading:
Here is another interesting thing. I knew I had seen a letter to Charlotte before, and just found this in my files. I don't know whose gun it is, but I probably snipped it here in the forum a while ago.
This one is about 25,000 serial numbers later than yours, but shipped three weeks earlier.
Another little nudge away from the opinion, still held dear by some, that the Victory models flew out the factory doors still warm from the oven and in relative serial order.
Here is another interesting thing. I knew I had seen a letter to Charlotte before, and just found this in my files. I don't know whose gun it is, but I probably snipped it here in the forum a while ago.
This one is about 25,000 serial numbers later than yours, but shipped three weeks earlier.
Another little nudge away from the opinion, still held dear by some, that the Victory models flew out the factory doors still warm from the oven and in relative serial order.
Very interesting!! Mine now has a place to spend its' well earned retirement...... in my collection. While not issued by a police agency, it was on duty protecting our nation. I have various other guns that performed similar jobs including a Colt Official Police that worked at the Federal Shipping & Dry Dock Company during WWII.
Best,
Charles
Last edited by policerevolvercollector; 05-05-2016 at 11:49 PM.
I just picked up a pair of Victory Model revolvers chambered in .38 Special and would like to add them to your data base.
Both are marked on the top strap with the Ordnance Bomb and U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D. The earlier one is all original including the grips. The second one is all original except for a mis-matched right grip serial numbered to a later pistol. No foreign markings on either one. The serial numbers are: V292411 and V345339. They both have the 4" barrel. I will be requesting factory letters on both.
I also have a friend that has his Dad's Victory Model .38 Special and should have the serial soon from him to add to the data base. His Dad brought it home and was a Hellcat pilot with the Navy VF-2 "Rippers" during WWII and he is on the list of 27 confirmed Aces from VF-2.
I just picked up a pair of Victory Model revolvers chambered in .38 Special and would like to add them to your data base.
Both are marked on the top strap with the Ordnance Bomb and U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D. The earlier one is all original including the grips. The second one is all original except for a mis-matched right grip serial numbered to a later pistol. No foreign markings on either one. The serial numbers are: V292411 and V345339. They both have the 4" barrel. I will be requesting factory letters on both.
I also have a friend that has his Dad's Victory Model .38 Special and should have the serial soon from him to add to the data base. His Dad brought it home and was a Hellcat pilot with the Navy VF-2 "Rippers" during WWII and he is on the list of 27 confirmed Aces from VF-2.
Welcome to the forum. Your guns both sound like standard military-shipped US Victory models from 1943. Mismatched stocks are very common.
Welcome to the forum. Your guns both sound like standard military-shipped US Victory models from 1943. Mismatched stocks are very common.
Thank you for the welcome. The original seller had eight of these Victory models from the same source. The person I bought them from got two of the eight and had them for 20 years or so in his collection.
I have been looking for a nice example for years and jumped at the chance to get these two.
Hello- I am looking for information about a this revolver that my dad received from his brother. I have been reading the forum and learned a lot so far! It looks like it was issued in 1941 or 1942 and was part of the British lend lease program. The serial number is 960508. The same number is on the barrel, cylinder and ejector. It is not marked as U.S Property. My dad believes it has been re-blued at some point. It has a Brauer Holster that is in very good condition. Any additional information would be helpful. Thanks! (I don't know why some images are upside down.)
Last edited by Iminmsp; 05-30-2016 at 02:44 PM.
Reason: Serial number
Looks like you've picked up quite a bit from reading through the Victory threads here. I can't add more than what you've already learned and shared about your dad's Victory Model. You've probably already realized that the refinish and stag grips make your dad's gun a non collector, but I'm sure the family attachment makes that unimportant.
Hello- I am looking for information about a this revolver that my dad received from his brother. I have been reading the forum and learned a lot so far! It looks like it was issued in 1941 or 1942 and was part of the British lend lease program. The serial number is 960508. The same number is on the barrel, cylinder and ejector. It is not marked as U.S Property. My dad believes it has been re-blued at some point......
Your "pre-Victory" British Service Revolver has definitely been re-blued, since by that serial number in spring of 1942 the dull utility finish of the Victory model was in use. It should have the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp (not the short US ...), although I'm not sure from what date or serial number onwards that was consistently applied. It could have been removed during the refinish; that particular stamping wasn't very deep.
[QUOTE=goldiver;139104424]Here are the two Victory Models I posted about earlier.
Bracketing from my list (not necessarily 100% accurate), I'd say these shipping dates would be likely:
V292411 - April-May 1943
V345339 - July-Aug 1943
I have gotten a victory revolver V250XXX when my dad passed away. It has the original holster but the swivel is missing. 1. Are the swivels still available for that revolver? 2. Should I have it replaced if there are? 3. Should I get it insured?
Here are the two Victory Models I posted about earlier.
Bracketing from my list (not necessarily 100% accurate), I'd say these shipping dates would be likely:
V292411 - April-May 1943
V345339 - July-Aug 1943
This one is about 25,000 serial numbers later than yours, but shipped three weeks earlier.
Another little nudge away from the opinion, still held dear by some, that the Victory models flew out the factory doors still warm from the oven and in relative serial order.
And my 495759 shipped on January 18, 1944 with 99 other Victory Models to Bethlehem Shipbuilding Alameda Supply Depot. This is the one much earlier in the thread marked U.S.M.C #55 on the back strap. Manufactured later... but shipped earlier it seems.
Last edited by Mike in Wis.; 06-27-2016 at 07:43 PM.
I just picked up a Victory from the estate of a Marine Lt. who flew in WW2 (VMSB-235). Pistol is in great shape with a USN stamped Boyt shoulder holster. I'd be interested in seeing if this pistol's history jibes with his units period of activity in the Pacific.
Butt serial # S (lanyard) V183928
Marked U.S. NAVY on topstrap, has P marked under barrel, cylinder, and left frame. Has S on sideplate. Grips, sadly, do not match the numbers on the gun. No inspector marks.
I just picked up a Victory from the estate of a Marine Lt. who flew in WW2 (VMSB-235). Pistol is in great shape with a USN stamped Boyt shoulder holster. I'd be interested in seeing if this pistol's history jibes with his units period of activity in the Pacific.
Butt serial # S (lanyard) V183928
Marked U.S. NAVY on topstrap, has P marked under barrel, cylinder, and left frame. Has S on sideplate. Grips, sadly, do not match the numbers on the gun. No inspector marks.
There is a problem with this being the Lt.'s issued gun in WW II. With this serial, it would have originally shipped (without the hammer block) likely in December 1942. The first contract for retrofitting Navy Victorys, acc. to Pate, didn't happen until May 1945, delivery to be made by January 1946. So the Navy had to collect these 40,000 revolvers from the field and get them to the factory. Since your gun received the S and was converted by S&W, I consider it pretty much impossible that a junior officer would have been able to get his specific gun back after conversion.
So the holster may have been his wartime equipment, but I suspect he acquired the gun afterward to have one "just like the one" he carried in the war. I don't know whether the Navy and Marine Corps issued the Victory to aviators in the post-war era, and he could have acquired it later in his career. I know from the testimony of AF veterans here on the forum that the Air Force had them in use through Vietnam.
There is a problem with this being the Lt.'s issued gun in WW II. ...... I consider it pretty much impossible that a junior officer would have been able to get his specific gun back after conversion.
Hmm..that would explain a couple things. This same estate had a 'locally made' 1911 holster with mag pouches in a shoulder holster configuration. The holster had his name, rank, unit logo, and signature on it...I wonder if perhaps he flew with a 1911 and then when the war was over and he was reassigned he wound up with the late Victory model and 44-marked Boyt holster.
I have a Victory model SN#V92367 in 38 S&W , can anyone tell me the date it was made?
Information on when guns were made is not available, just more or less educated guesses on when they likely shipped from the factory. I'm assuming that your gun has the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp on the topstrap, in which case it is a British Service Model that likely shipped to Hartford Ordnance Depot for shipment to Britain or another Commonwealth nation under Lend-lease in approximately July/August 1942, although actual shipping dates can easily differ from such predictions; only a factory letter would tell with certainty.
"I don't know whether the Navy and Marine Corps issued the Victory to aviators in the post-war era..."
Considering the Marine Corps went to Korea using tents that were declared surplus by the Army after the War of 1812, yea, I'll bet they were still issued Victory models.
"I don't know whether the Navy and Marine Corps issued the Victory to aviators in the post-war era..."
One thing I do not know is if the Navy actually issued revolvers on a semi-permanent basis to aviators during WWII or later. I have a friend who was a non-flying CPO on a Carrier during Vietnam (and beyond - he retired in the early 1980s), and he told me once that carrier flight crews checked out revolvers before they left on a mission, then checked them back in when they returned. Navy (and likely other service) aviators did indeed carry Victories during the Korean and Vietnam eras. No reason that they would have needed anything better.
I just got a new Victory Model. 4", 38 Special, Black Magic, all matching. All the usual M&P markings. Small "P" above left recoil shield. NO "US Property" or "US Navy" on left topstrap (blank). Butt marked: Sideways "W", "V", Ordnance Bomb, Lanyard Swivel, "509418". Would you know approx dating, and is it worth a letter? The "W" interests me.
Thanks!
One thing I do not know is if the Navy actually issued revolvers on a semi-permanent basis to aviators during WWII or later. I have a friend who was a non-flying CPO on a Carrier during Vietnam (and beyond - he retired in the early 1980s), and he told me once that carrier flight crews checked out revolvers before they left on a mission, then checked them back in when they returned.....
I think one needs to define the term "issue" when talking about personal sidearms and the Navy in WW II. What you describe fits with something I noticed in reading the memoirs of an officer serving with a naval gun crew in the Battle of the Atlantic. While at sea, all sidearms were locked up; there were no personal weapons. The .38 revolvers were handed out to guards when the ship docked in port and collected when it departed. The Navy in general seems to have kept tight control over individual weaponry, and from your description, that appears to have extended to pilots as well, and apparently beyond WW II.
I just got a new Victory Model. 4", 38 Special, Black Magic, all matching. All the usual M&P markings. Small "P" above left recoil shield. NO "US Property" or "US Navy" on left topstrap (blank). Butt marked: Sideways "W", "V", Ordnance Bomb, Lanyard Swivel, "509418". Would you know approx dating, and is it worth a letter? The "W" interests me.
Thanks!
The serial number places your Victory likely in early 1944. With a blank topstrap, it was most likely shipped under a Defense Supply Corporation (DSC) contract to a civilian destination, like a defense contracting business, or a police agency in the US. Less likely would be shipment to the US Maritime Commission. A letter would likely tell you, since the factory did ship those directly to the end user. Whether that information is worth it to you is your decision.
Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, Chuck! According to Pate, the W indicates the gun was sent to Western Electric Company.
With respect to my friend from the wiregrass, that's shown to be most likely a false trail. The W has shown up on a gun that went to Western Electric, but then also on guns lettering to the Navy/OSS, the Illinois State Police, and other destinations. As far as I know, it remains unsolved, but I have missed important threads before ...
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