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01-16-2017, 12:29 PM
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questions
Hello everyone,
I received a victory model the other day and was hoping to get some information on it.
The serial number on the butt and barrel reads: V166010(haven't check the grips yet). The cylinder and star have a different serial number: 735706.
It's a 4 inch barrel 5 screw and reads 38 S&W special on the barrel. There is no marking on the top strap. There are some markings on the cylinder that I would like to get clarification on. Some have BP and some have BV. some of these same markings are double and triple stamped. Also my main concern is the "special" on the right side of the barrel is stamped out. I would like to shoot this gun and am unsure of the caliber due to that modification and the mismatched cylinder.
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01-16-2017, 12:48 PM
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Welcome to the Forum, Gio3000.
It appears that you have a .38 special Victory model that has been fitted with a .38 S&W cylinder.
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01-16-2017, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muley Gil
....
It appears that you have a .38 special Victory model that has been fitted with a .38 S&W cylinder.
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This is indeed what seems to have occurred, a rather odd thing. The markings on the cylinder are clearly British post-war proofs. If the cylinder has not been converted to .38 Special, which happened to a lot of these, but likely not to this one considering they modified the barrel stamping, you can only shoot .38 S&W, not .38 Special. An unmodified cylinder would look like the attached picture, with a very distinct shoulder almost in the middle. It will also not fully seat a live .38 Special cartridge.
I have ever only dealt with the opposite issue, so I can't comment on any issues pertaining to shooting the slightly larger-diameter bullets through that barrel.
Last edited by Absalom; 01-16-2017 at 03:03 PM.
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01-16-2017, 02:15 PM
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Thank You very much guys. That seems to be the case. There is a distinct shoulder inside the cylinders. I guess I will not be shooting it.
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01-18-2017, 02:17 PM
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I picked this Victory model up today Serial V665446. It was bobbed and nickled.
Brit proofs on the cylinders. 2.25" barrel. Reamed out to .38 Special. Serials match.
It shoots/ejects OK. No bulged cases, at least with the wadcutter rounds I was using. As accurate as you would expect any snubby to be a 7 yards.
I suspect it started out life as a 5" barreled Brit revolver in .38 S&W and was reamed out to .38 spl.
The odd thing is that it is just like another in post number 49 on the first page. Even used the same grips. Just a different serial.....And from Virginia too!
BTW, I replaced the plastic "stag" Fit-Well grips with a set of checkered walnut Cogswell & Harrison stocks.....Seem appropriate on a reamed revolver.
I'm wondering if some business in Virginia was turning them out like that? I was told it was purchased in the '50s.
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01-18-2017, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1srelluc
.....
The odd thing is that it is just like another in post number 49 on the first page. Even used the same grips. Just a different serial.....And from Virginia too!
......
I'm wondering if some business in Virginia was turning them out like that? I was told it was purchased in the '50s.
....
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That could be, but it's not a compelling likelihood. It's not odd at all that yours looks just like another one you found in this thread. In the years since I've been on this forum, we've had dozens presented here by people asking what they had; those generally don't make it into this thread. The threesome of a barrel shortened beyond the front lug, nickel refinish, and fake stags is the most common post-war beautification on the re-imported ex-BSR's. You could probably find quite a few more in Virginia, and in every other state .
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01-18-2017, 06:21 PM
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I stuck the Fit-Wells back on it and it's a uncanny resemblance to the one in post 49 of this thread, at least what I could see what with the small pics.
As to someone making a them up I know of at least one old shop just in my little town that used to buy surplused revolvers, bob the barrels, affix a sight of some type on them, then take them to a local jeweler, who in turn would send them off for bluing and/or a nickel job.
In fact (years ago) I had a Colt PP Special in blue that he did like that.
I suspect you are correct in so far as it was a common thing all across the country in the cheap surplus revolver heyday.
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01-21-2017, 06:16 PM
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Hey guys! The grips for my victory have arrived and been put on, and I love the way the gun looks now! It looks like it has many stories to tell.
Only bad thing was the screw that was supplied with the grips was about a bit too short. I was able to borrow one from another set of grips I had to get the job done. Were there differing frame widths, or did I just get the wrong screw?
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01-23-2017, 12:08 PM
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Victory ID
Last edited by daleattty; 01-23-2017 at 12:29 PM.
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01-23-2017, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daleattty
I have a Lend Lease Victory with the following characteristics:
SN:V268491
Cal:38 S&W, 5" barrel
Birmingham proof marks on barrel, frame and cylinder. Marked "united states property"on left side of bridge and "not english made" on barrel and frame. "Made in U.S.A" is stamped on the right side of the frame over the front of the trigger guard. Below that in large letter and numbers is "P1118". There is a large letter "P" ( 3/8" high) at the bottom of the backstrap. The gun was not parkerized and hastily made judging by the milling marks visible on the frame, especially on the right, side plate, side. I have been unable to locate any reference to the P on the backstrap and the P1118 marking....
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The gun is from the first half of 1943. Victorys were not literally "parkerized"; the finish on your gun looks like a standard original Victory finish, just very tired with a lot of smoothing off by use wear. All markings are standard except for the backstrap P and the P1118. We have seen at least the latter type of stamping here before, although I do not recall whether anyone had an explanation. It is most likely a British or other user's unit or service marking, maybe post-war.
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01-23-2017, 01:30 PM
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Updated Factory Letter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom
If you can document this guy, that's a good lead. Especially near military bases, there was hardly any manufacturing business that did not have some war-related contracts. Remembering previous discussions about DSC Victorys lettering as shipped to an individual whose association was not identified further, it usually turned out he was a manager at a company like that, or alternatively a police official.
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After asking about the delivery location being Phenix City, Al, I received the attached updated factory letter.
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01-23-2017, 01:37 PM
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P=polizei? And the other a rack number? Lots of these guns were given to the German police after the war.
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01-23-2017, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mharve_2000
After asking about the delivery location being Phenix City, Al, I received the attached updated factory letter.
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That's better! The city exists, and the new letter confirms the 2" barrel. Now all you have to do is track down this gentleman .
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01-23-2017, 10:33 PM
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Thanks so much. If I can unravel the mystery I'll let you know.
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01-28-2017, 05:50 PM
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Here's another for database...#892891, 38-200, 5 inch, "United States Property" on topstrap, brush blue finish, smooth wood grips numbered to gun, butt marked with "P", "WB" and bomb, above triggerguard is marked with crossed swords and "K", "B","3" between blades. Has Birmingham proofs on barrel and cylinder. Happy to provide additional info if desired. Ron
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01-28-2017, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleronKJV
Here's another for database...#892891, 38-200, 5 inch, "United States Property" on topstrap, brush blue finish, smooth wood grips numbered to gun, butt marked with "P", "WB" and bomb, above triggerguard is marked with crossed swords and "K", "B","3" between blades. Has Birmingham proofs on barrel and cylinder. Happy to provide additional info if desired. Ron
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Sounds like a nice one. The crossed "swords" are officially referred to as crossed sceptres, by the way, and are view marks that are part of the post-war treatment.
That serial, likely very late 1941, is quite early for original smooth stocks; since they are numbered to the gun, that's an interesting data point.
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01-29-2017, 04:49 PM
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With regard to Absalom's comment regarding the smooth grips on my gun I note that on page of 133 of Pate he shows #889789 with smooth grips as well Ron
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01-29-2017, 05:10 PM
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The Hellstrom notes state that the smooth wood grips started in "early 1942" without providing an exact date or SN, but there is also a comment that in February 1942, smooth walnut grips were used. So it's likely that the change occurred sometime in January 1942. That would indicate that the smooth grips likely started somewhere in the high 8xxxxx SN range. I do list SN 8783xx as having smooth grips. Does anyone have an earlier SN with matching smooth wood grips?
Last edited by DWalt; 01-29-2017 at 06:08 PM.
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01-29-2017, 05:15 PM
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Based on an official report from the company to the Army Ordnance office, smooth stocks started as early as November, 1941.
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01-30-2017, 01:19 PM
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I did not take pictures, and should have. The finish is well above average, and appropriate to a Victory. The function is acceptable. SN SV782435, .38 S&W SPL, 4" barrel, stamped US Property GHD on topstrap. Lanyard ring attached. The numbers all match (barrel, cylinder and frame), with the exception of the stocks, which are not stamped at all. Further, the stocks are ill fitted to the frame, and appear to be in almost unused condition. They are, however, the smooth finish that we are accustomed to seeing on Victories. The frame has some discoloration that matches the outline of a pair of magna stocks. Finally, a six digit number beginning with a B was rather crudely etched in the sight groove on the topstrap. No other markings.
Any information available is appreciated.
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01-30-2017, 01:37 PM
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All of the SV series Victories were shipped to the military in 1945. The S part of the SV prefix indicates that it incorporates the new and improved hammer drop safety. You did not indicate what finish yours has. With the property marking, yours is likely one of the military revolvers and should have a dull phosphate finish, not blued. And the grips should be smooth wood, and serial numbered to the frame. There remained in inventory an unknown number of wartime SV frames on VJ-day, and those were made up and finished in civilian style (blued with Magna grips) for sale on the civilian market through S&W's normal commercial channels. Virtually all of those Victories were shipped during the early months of 1946. Most had the lanyard holes present but plugged. They would not have the U.S.Property stamp.
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01-30-2017, 01:43 PM
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My bad. It had the phosphate finish, and was not blued. Thanks for your swift reply . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt
All of the SV series Victories were shipped to the military in 1945. The S part of the SV prefix indicates that it incorporates the new and improved hammer drop safety. You did not indicate what finish yours has. With the property marking, yours is likely one of the military revolvers and should have a dull phosphate finish, not blued. And the grips should be smooth wood, and serial numbered to the frame. There remained in inventory an unknown number of wartime SV frames on VJ-day, and those were made up and finished in civilian style (blued with Magna grips) for sale on the civilian market through S&W's normal commercial channels. Virtually all of those Victories were shipped during the early months of 1946. Most had the lanyard holes present but plugged. They would not have the U.S.Property stamp.
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01-30-2017, 11:56 PM
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Newly acquired Nickel Victory
I just picked this Victory up and thought I could use a little help figuring this thing out.
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01-31-2017, 12:00 AM
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Nickel Victory
Additional photos of the nickel Victory
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01-31-2017, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdr1561
I just picked this Victory up and thought I could use a little help figuring this thing out.
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You have a former British Service Revolver that likely shipped in late 1943. It originally looked like the one in the attached photo.
The barrel was shortened, unfortunately to the point of removing the front ejector rod lug. The nickel is not original, and the grips are post-1968. Any British proofs seem to have been removed during refinish.
It was likely converted from its original .38 S&W to .38 Special. Your cylinder photo is not well enough lit to tell for sure. Compare to photo below. That's an unconverted one.
It does not retain any collector value due to the extensive modification, but for what it's worth, the nickel job and overall appearance on this one are considerably better than on the ones we usually encounter here; large numbers of ex-BSR's received a similar treatment in the 1950s after being "repatriated", but with cheap plastic grips and the nickel rarely as neatly executed.
Last edited by Absalom; 01-31-2017 at 12:27 AM.
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02-01-2017, 10:52 PM
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I was just getting ready to post my two P numbered Vics. Mine have Canada ownership marks, late pre -Vic serials,WB and bomb on butt, and no top strap markings, are K-2 00s with 5in bbls. 932812 has no. P0333 London proofs and shiny reblue and not rebored. 948634 has no.P0420 Birminham proofs , worn original finish, original stocks and not rebored. I was hoping some knew what the P numbers were.
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02-02-2017, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayn.32
I was just getting ready to post my two P numbered Vics. Mine have Canada ownership marks, late pre -Vic serials,WB and bomb on butt, and no top strap markings, are K-2 00s with 5in bbls. 932812 has no. P0333 London proofs and shiny reblue and not rebored. 948634 has no.P0420 Birminham proofs , worn original finish, original stocks and not rebored. I was hoping some knew what the P numbers were.
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You are referring to P-numbers on the frame like on the one shown in post #1612 above? That's interesting. The photos in that post don't show the spot where the Canadian broad arrow in a C would be, but he likely would have mentioned it; since you say both yours are Canadian, I would have suspected a Canadian origin to those numbers. They are not to my knowledge connected to the proofs, but must denote some other entity. Do either of yours have the large P on the backstrap?
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02-02-2017, 09:49 PM
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No p's on backstrap c with arrow is on toe of butt.
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02-10-2017, 01:16 PM
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Just picked up my first victory. S/N V49277 W.B. "bomb" P 38 S&W CTG. A5 over 95274 in cylinder gap. "UNITED STATES PROPERTY". HAS DIAMOND/checkered grip with medallions. Has stamped I believe import mark on bottom of barrel that is very light and hard to read. Also has N ^ Z over 7199.
What do I have? Year, correct grips, etc. Thanks.
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02-10-2017, 01:47 PM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, Blackedoutblazer! You really should post a picture. It sounds like a British Service Revolver that would have been manufactured in 1942. I would have thought that by the 49277th unit, the service stocks should have been plain walnut, but it is possible they came on the gun. Have you looked at the SN inside the right grip panel to see if they are numbered to the gun? Also, have you checked to see if the cylinder has been reamed for .38 Special? If a .38 Special cartridge fully inserts, it has.
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02-10-2017, 02:41 PM
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Welcome. It sounds like a New Zealand gun. Pictures would help and/or you can search the forum and find similar examples.
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02-10-2017, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackedoutblazer
Just picked up my first victory. S/N V49277 W.B. "bomb" P 38 S&W CTG. A5 over 95274 in cylinder gap. "UNITED STATES PROPERTY". HAS DIAMOND/checkered grip with medallions. Has stamped I believe import mark on bottom of barrel that is very light and hard to read. Also has N ^ Z over 7199.
What do I have? Year, correct grips, etc. Thanks.
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Is the "N ^ Z over 7199" on the hump of the back strap? If so, it sounds like it could be a New Zealand model.
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02-10-2017, 04:59 PM
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Just to confirm my esteemed pre-posters' assumptions, you do have indeed a Lend-lease British Service model which likely shipped around June 1942. The stocks on it now are either too late or too early depending on the style, but more likely post-war magnas; pictures would confirm this. The smooth walnut stocks Wiregrassguy mentions are the only original stocks possible by this serial. The markings you describe make this a New Zealand gun without a doubt.
The numbers in the yoke area were factory assembly numbers and don't tell us anything. Could the possible import marks involve VEGA SAC? They're always a prime suspect in the importation of NZ and Australian surplus guns.
Last edited by Absalom; 02-10-2017 at 05:05 PM.
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02-10-2017, 06:02 PM
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02-10-2017, 06:04 PM
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Under the grip has something stamped but so deep it's unreadable.
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02-10-2017, 06:10 PM
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Barrel marking means it was imported by Navy Arms Co. in Ridgefield NJ. GCA-68 requires that importers must stamp such guns with the importer's name and location. No question it was imported after GCA-68 took effect. Grips are of the 1930s style. S&W started the use of smooth wooden grips in very early 1942, but maybe these came from old inventory. Are they stamped with a serial number on the back?
Last edited by DWalt; 02-10-2017 at 06:14 PM.
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02-10-2017, 06:15 PM
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Looks righteous to me. And it appears to still be in 38 S&W caliber.
Guy
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02-10-2017, 06:59 PM
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The stamp on the back of the grip is deep and can not be made out. How much do you think something like this is worth?
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02-10-2017, 07:01 PM
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The stocks are at least five or six months too late for the serial by normal standards, so I would be very surprised if they had a matching number ( but I have been surprised before ).
But switched stocks are nothing unusual; I have an Australian with stocks from another gun that shipped within the same 1941 timeframe, which highly likely indicates not a random post-war replacement, but that it happened during active service while guns from the same or proximate shipments were still together.
So if they don't match, the service stocks are likely from another New Zealand gun, a pre-Victory shipped in 1941.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackedoutblazer
....... How much do you think something like this is worth?
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I could see myself going up to 400 for this one. Unconverted, non-refinished NZ guns aren't very common, and the service stocks are worth more than smooth Victory stocks, partly compensating for their non-originality.
Last edited by Absalom; 02-10-2017 at 07:11 PM.
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02-10-2017, 08:06 PM
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Thanks for all help everyone!
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02-11-2017, 09:50 PM
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Victory .38 S&W need for gen info
I have acquired an old, what i thought was a 38 Special, which I know now seems to be just another BNP 38 S&W cut barrel nickel. I am wondering, however if anyone can help me with a date of mfg or ship date into service?
V817XX
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02-11-2017, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sooner960
I have acquired an old, what i thought was a 38 Special, which I know now seems to be just another BNP 38 S&W cut barrel nickel. I am wondering, however if anyone can help me with a date of mfg or ship date into service?
V817XX
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It would have shipped in mid-1942, around June/July or so, to Hartford Ordnance Depot for Lend-lease shipment most likely to Britain.
Last edited by Absalom; 02-11-2017 at 10:46 PM.
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02-11-2017, 11:22 PM
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Thank You very much for the info.....the individual from whom i purchased the firearmfrom said it was a 38 special.....it says .767 on the barrel and 3 1/2 Tons along with the typical BNP and cross swords and the WB on the butt. It has all matching numbers except the grips. I cannot see stop rings inside the cylinder bores which probably indicates that they have been bored to accommodate the longer 38 spc ammo length.
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02-11-2017, 11:47 PM
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SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sooner960
Thank You very much for the info.....the individual from whom i purchased the firearmfrom said it was a 38 special.....it says .767 on the barrel and 3 1/2 Tons along with the typical BNP and cross swords and the WB on the butt. It has all matching numbers except the grips. I cannot see stop rings inside the cylinder bores which probably indicates that they have been bored to accommodate the longer 38 spc ammo length.
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The.767 is the case length of the proof load and indicates it was still in its original caliber when commercially proofed in Birmingham, so it was likely converted later after re-importation. You are right about the shoulders ("stop rings"); an un-converted cylinder should have distinctly noticable ones. See the cylinder photo a few posts up.
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02-15-2017, 11:16 PM
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I guess you are still adding no.s to the data base. In addition to the two I posted in post #1629 I need to post one before I lose the no. It is V611785 and was traded off a year ago. It is a usual K-200 US PROPERTY GHD on top no foreign marks at all and no finish left 5 in 38 s&w , Only an import mark. How much info do you want on guns to add? I still have several .
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02-16-2017, 03:50 AM
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Victory Model Inquiry
I picked up a Victory Smith & Wesson S/N V588378 has US Property GHD chambered in 38 SW. Wondering if anyone had information.
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02-16-2017, 02:38 PM
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It's a British .38/200 Victory service revolver. The SN would date its likely shipment to be around May 1944. You haven't provided any information or photos to allow more precise identification. Many of these were highly modified after importation to the US which basically destroys any collectible value.
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02-16-2017, 02:51 PM
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SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayn.32
I guess you are still adding no.s to the data base. In addition to the two I posted in post #1629 I need to post one before I lose the no. It is V611785 and was traded off a year ago. It is a usual K-200 US PROPERTY GHD on top no foreign marks at all and no finish left 5 in 38 s&w , Only an import mark. How much info do you want on guns to add? I still have several .
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I assume the keepers of the database still check this thread periodically, so if you are willing to share your serial numbers, caliber and barrel length, originality of stocks and finish, and the stampings (esp. topstrap property), that would put your guns on the record and be appreciated.
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02-16-2017, 10:43 PM
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add to data base
Thanks, Absalom. I'll start by adding my earliest pre -vic which is 712962 one of the early 6in guns with "BO" on the toe of the grip frame. It has BNP proofs under crown, arsenal reblue,good case colors, an H (1957) date in crossed scepters and about 1946 magna stocks, no topstrap markings. The story that came with it was a Canadian policeman took it on vacation to Florida and was not allowed to reimport his own duty weapon back to Canada!
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02-18-2017, 11:15 PM
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any info on this victory model
Saw this victory model today at a show.
serial number V663941 matching cylinder, barrel, grips. Left side of frame stamped POL.BR below that L.u.S., 5 inch barrel. What does the frame stamping stand for. Thanks Steve
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380, cartridge, certificate, commercial, gunsmith, k frame, leather, military, model 10, parkerized, postwar, scope, sideplate, sig arms, smith and wesson, smith-wessonforum.com, springfield, stag, swca, trademark, united states property, victory, walnut, wondersight, wwii |
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