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  #1801  
Old 08-11-2017, 11:18 AM
Shotguncoach Shotguncoach is offline
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Here's another one for the Victory database. This one came from an estate auction and has been refinished with pitting under the finish, so it's just a shooter. It does have what appear to be the original numbered grips. The lanyard ring was missing when I bought it, but Numrich was able to provide a ring and the mounting pin. Nice smooth action and hits right on POA at 15 yards with 158 grain semi-wadcutters. For $250 + auction fees I think I did OK for a range toy.













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  #1802  
Old 09-09-2017, 04:16 PM
Paladinsgun Paladinsgun is offline
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I'm new so if this is the wrong place to post this please let me know. That said, I have a Victory with an interesting story to add to the data base. I'd like to find out what you think about this Victory, then I'll post additional photos and it's history as I know it. I may even be able to shed some light on the mysterious W.

Victory data base-v-2-jpg
Victory data base-v-15-jpg

Last edited by Paladinsgun; 09-09-2017 at 05:59 PM.
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  #1803  
Old 09-09-2017, 04:21 PM
Paladinsgun Paladinsgun is offline
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Here's a few more photos of V501248:

Victory data base-v-1-jpg
Victory data base-v-2-jpg
Victory data base-v-3-jpg
Victory data base-v-4-jpg
Victory data base-v-5-jpg

Last edited by Paladinsgun; 09-09-2017 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Left off serial number
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  #1804  
Old 09-09-2017, 04:25 PM
Paladinsgun Paladinsgun is offline
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And a few more of V501248:

Victory data base-v-6-jpg

Victory data base-v-7-jpg

Victory data base-v-8-jpg

Victory data base-v-9-jpg

Victory data base-v-11-jpg

Last edited by Paladinsgun; 09-09-2017 at 06:15 PM. Reason: Left off serial number
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  #1805  
Old 09-09-2017, 04:27 PM
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I'm not the keeper of the Victory database but I know he is in the path of Irma and may not be able to respond for some time. I think your gun shipped in Feb or March, 1944 and most likely went to the US Maritime Commission.

It's a nice example and I'd like to hear the story.
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  #1806  
Old 09-09-2017, 04:38 PM
Paladinsgun Paladinsgun is offline
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If it were a car we'd call it a 'one owner' and this one was literally driven by a little old man from Pasadena (California) V501248.

Victory data base-v-12-jpg

Victory data base-v-13-jpg

Victory data base-v-14-jpg

Victory data base-v-16-jpg

Victory data base-v-17-jpg

Last edited by Paladinsgun; 09-09-2017 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Left off serial number
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  #1807  
Old 09-09-2017, 05:27 PM
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V501248 would indicate that it probably shipped in Jan or Feb 1944. The lack of a topstrap stamping suggests it was a DSC revolver, not one which went to the U. S. military. Pate says that the W stamping on the butt MAY mean that it was sent to the Western Electric Co.
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  #1808  
Old 09-09-2017, 05:42 PM
Paladinsgun Paladinsgun is offline
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This Victory was purchased at Elliott's Police Supply in Los Angeles on 7 Nov 1960, sold as a 'New' S&W Model 10, with a full S&W Warranty (I have the card). When it was delivered it was in new in box condition (i have the box), it didn't even appear to have ever been fired.

Back then Police Officers in Los Angeles purchased and paid for their own weapons, but the weapons had to meet certain specifications. One was that all revolvers had to pass the 'drop test.' In other words, they had to have a functioning hammer block. Since this era Victory did not have a hammer block it needed to be retro fitted before it could be used on duty. (By 1971 all privately owned revolvers used on duty by LAPD officers had to be modified for double action only fire). All modified revolvers are marked by the Department Armorer so that the revolvers can be checked during inspections or after shootings.

This is where the speculation begins. I think that this Victory (and probably thousands more) that were unissued (or lightly used) were returned to S&W to be retro fitted with the hammer block so that they could be resold. I'm not alone in thinking the the 'W' may in fact be a 'M' for 'modified.' You might have noticed that on the right side of the grip there is what appears to be an 'aftermarket' S. The S does not appear as part of the serial number as it would have on a Victory that was delivered from the factory with the hammer block installed.

Although this may never have been an OSS issued Victory, I do know that it was only carried on duty for about three and a half years. During that period it was fired less then 400 times. About 50 each during five semi annual qualifications, and once more that we won't talk about.

This whole scenario may also explain why we see so many war era Victory revolvers fitted with 1950's era grips. That's what this Victory was supplied with for the S&W factory.

Victory data base-v-18-jpg
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  #1809  
Old 09-09-2017, 05:55 PM
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I submitted the history of this Victory (V501248, as i know it), but being new and having not read all the rules as I should have, it was blocked until approved by the moderator. I think it was to long. Sorry.

Last edited by Paladinsgun; 09-09-2017 at 06:17 PM.
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  #1810  
Old 09-10-2017, 03:44 AM
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This is the short version of what I know about my Victory V501248). It was purchased at Elliott's Police Supply in Los Angeles on 7 Nov 1960, sold as a 'New' S&W Model 10, with a full S&W Warranty, and carried on duty for about three and a half years. It came with the grips in the photo and without a lanyard ring.

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  #1811  
Old 09-10-2017, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinsgun View Post
This is the short version of what I know about my Victory V501248). It was purchased at Elliott's Police Supply in Los Angeles on 7 Nov 1960, sold as a 'New' S&W Model 10, with a full S&W Warranty, and carried on duty for about three and a half years. It came with the grips in the photo and without a lanyard ring.
I'm not sure how generous S&W was with "warranty" work in the old days, but that was definitely not new, but a used Victory with post-war magna stocks attached later. If a warranty repair issue had arisen and Elliott's sold it as you describe, they'd likely have had to eat the cost.
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  #1812  
Old 09-10-2017, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
I'm not sure how generous S&W was with "warranty" work in the old days, but that was definitely not new, but a used Victory with post-war magna stocks attached later. If a warranty repair issue had arisen and Elliott's sold it as you describe, they'd likely have had to eat the cost.
I have the original S&W warranty card (a 1955 form), box, and paper work. I'll post a photo of it later. Based on what I was told, and the excellent condition of the Victory now, it probably appeared as if it were new, even if it wasn't. My friend is relying on a 66 year old memory, but he's still sharp as a tack. I talked to him about it last Thursday and he said that it was sold as new and that the store had a number of 'the same Model 10s' to choose from. I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

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  #1813  
Old 09-10-2017, 03:17 PM
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Here's the S&W warranty card and brochures that came with Victory V501248. It came in a standard Model 10 S&W blue box without a serial number printed with the description.

Victory data base-w-1-jpg

Victory data base-w-2-jpg

Victory data base-b-1-jpg

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  #1814  
Old 09-10-2017, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinsgun View Post
Here's the S&W warranty card and brochures that came with Victory V501248. It came in a standard Model 10 S&W blue box without a serial number printed with the description.

Attachment 302269

Attachment 302270

Attachment 302271

Attachment 302272
Yeah, that's not the right box or documents for a Victory. Model numbers weren't around then. And in your picture of the revolver, those aren't Victory stocks . . .
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Old 09-10-2017, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Paladinsgun View Post
Here's the S&W warranty card and brochures that came with Victory V501248. It came in a standard Model 10 S&W blue box without a serial number printed with the description.
...
As Muss says, neither the box nor the papers are in any way related to the Victory model you showed. The instructions are for a regular post-1958/59 Model 10, as appears to be the box. They met up sometime before the sale in 1960; if Elliott's sold this as new and under warranty, they cheated.
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  #1816  
Old 09-10-2017, 09:05 PM
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As Muss says, neither the box nor the papers are in any way related to the Victory model you showed. The instructions are for a regular post-1958/59 Model 10, as appears to be the box. They met up sometime before the sale in 1960; if Elliott's sold this as new and under warranty, they cheated.
Is there such a thing as a Victory box?
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Old 09-10-2017, 11:11 PM
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Is there such a thing as a Victory box?
Good question. Most likely a plain brown kraft box, similar to the Commando boxes.

There is the famous photo, also reprinted in Pate, of BSR Victorys being unpacked in Britain which appears to show such packaging.

Interestingly, while there are quite a few newish unissued Commandos in original boxes around (as well as plenty of new "replica" boxes, a.k.a. fakes), I have never laid eyes on a documented original US Victory box. But there are others here with a lot longer exposure than I've had, so maybe someone has a picture of one.
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
Yeah, that's not the right box or documents for a Victory. Model numbers weren't around then. And in your picture of the revolver, those aren't Victory stocks . . .
Can't argue with you about that. I think the original owner may be confused about the state of the gun when it was sold. New vs like new. Although he's pretty adamant that he never owned a 'Model 10' other than the Victory that he thinks was sold to him as a Model 10. I think it's time to order a letter from S&W to pin down when and to whom it was shipped to. Thanks for the input.
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
As Muss says, neither the box nor the papers are in any way related to the Victory model you showed. The instructions are for a regular post-1958/59 Model 10, as appears to be the box. They met up sometime before the sale in 1960; if Elliott's sold this as new and under warranty, they cheated.
I never dealt with Elliott's and I don't mean to infer that they did anything unethical. All the information comes from a guy that I've know for 40 years who has always been reliable. Because the basis of the information about the gun is anecdotal I think the only solution is to order a letter from S&W and see where it leads. Thanks for the input.
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Old 09-11-2017, 04:21 AM
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I never dealt with Elliott's and I don't mean to infer that they did anything unethical. All the information comes from a guy that I've know for 40 years who has always been reliable. Because the basis of the information about the gun is anecdotal I think the only solution is to order a letter from S&W and see where it leads. Thanks for the input.
Please report back when you get the letter.
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  #1821  
Old 09-12-2017, 05:32 PM
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Yes, there was indeed a distinctive box within which the Victory Model was shipped. It was a single piece of folded, corrugated cardboard taped close with the serial number penciled on the bottom. The USGI guns had the Ordnance Department Escutcheon stamped in red ink on the box as well.

I don't have handy any pics of the two boxes in my collection but do have in my archives the image posted below of an authentic Victory box. I believe this one was probably for a DSC gun. I don't recall where I got this image or I would offer the proper credit for it here.

The Colt Commando boxes were 2 piece boxes of a different construction.

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Old 09-22-2017, 04:14 PM
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Hello, I'm new to the forum and picked up a Victory recently to add to the database. I found it local but didn't pick it up initially due to having reservations about it being an actual Victory. Here's the details:

Finish is dull but definitely not blue.
Smooth grips
Lanyard ring
4" barrel
38 s&w special ctg
Serial #: V 227198
Serial number match on grips, cylinder, extractor star, barrel flat

Here's why I had issues at first. The butt and top strap are lacking markings. But both places seem too have been modified due to possible machine scratches. The left top strap has light rust and the right does not. Mechanically, the gun is outstanding and the bore is clean. After following this thread, I saw some around this number I would guess puts it around Jan-Feb 1943. I'm not looking at making anything off it and it would probably just get shot here and there. I was looking at getting the factory letter for it just to see what additional info I can get on it. Let me know if any other info is needed. I'll try t get pics up but Photobucket just changed their policy.

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Old 09-22-2017, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AZret11B View Post
Hello, I'm new to the forum and picked up a Victory recently to add to the database. I found it local but didn't pick it up initially due to having reservations about it being an actual Victory. Here's the details:

Finish is dull but definitely not blue.
Smooth grips
Lanyard ring
4" barrel
38 s&w special ctg
Serial #: V 227198
Serial number match on grips, cylinder, extractor star, barrel flat

Here's why I had issues at first. The butt and top strap are lacking markings. But both places seem too have been modified due to possible machine scratches. The left top strap has light rust and the right does not. Mechanically, the gun is outstanding and the bore is clean. After following this thread, I saw some around this number I would guess puts it around Jan-Feb 1943. ....
You have the gun dated about right, and it does appear to be an "actual Victory".

The topstrap of a US version Victory like this may or may not be marked with a property stamping; guns that shipped to non-military destinations were not. However, if the appearance of the left and right topstrap surface are noticably different, that would give me pause.

Of more concern is the butt. I hope for you that the markings the butt lacks does not include the serial number there; that could be a legal issue.

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Old 09-22-2017, 06:45 PM
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"The butt ... (is) lacking markings"

Is it your meaning that there is no SN on the butt, or it may have been removed?
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:37 PM
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Sorry, I worded it wrong when I said no marking the V is missing.

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Old 09-22-2017, 11:41 PM
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Sorry, I worded it wrong when I said no marking the V is missing.
...
Phew. That's not something I'd worry about overmuch, although it is a bit odd if the V is present in the other locations like cylinder face and barrel flat. Someone must have "cleaned up" the other side of the lanyard hole, where the V was located. Technically, it's still a mutilated frame serial, and illegal, but realistically, I'd worry more about getting hit by an engine falling off a jetliner flying overhead.
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Old 09-25-2017, 03:47 PM
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Phew. That's not something I'd worry about overmuch, although it is a bit odd if the V is present in the other locations like cylinder face and barrel flat. Someone must have "cleaned up" the other side of the lanyard hole, where the V was located. Technically, it's still a mutilated frame serial, and illegal, but realistically, I'd worry more about getting hit by an engine falling off a jetliner flying overhead.
Yeah the gun shop here would not have taken it if it was missing the butt serial number. Having seen what people do to guns, if someone removed the US Prop marking, I just shake my head thinking they probably didn't know or care about it. When I first saw it I assumed it was a DSC gun or a pre-model. I had t really look fr the V under the barrel and the other locations due t the amount of oil and dirt/carbon.

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Old 09-27-2017, 07:29 AM
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Just this morning I decided I ought to post about my experience with what I believe to be a Victory model and I am happy to see this thread.
Unfortunately we are doing this in absentia (old school for without the gun in hand) as I sold it over 35 years ago.
I bought it in a local gun shop, where I knew the owner well, in the mid 70's. When I got to the shop that morning Ken was in negotiations with a lady who had brought the gun in. She left it behind for a while as she had other business to do. I asked Ken about it and he told me she was selling it because she no longer wanted her husband to have it in the house. He said to offer her 40 dollars for it and she took the offer.
The interesting part of that gun is that, although it was marked 38 S and W on the barrel it was overmarked 38 Special on the barrel flat and was in fact totally correctly chambered for 38 Special.
When I sold the gun to a Smith and Wesson collector in the mid 80's the mystery was solved. Very simply the gun had been bored and sleeved and the chambers cut for 38 Special. He felt that work, because it was done so well that the sleeve lines were only barely detectable on two chambers, would have likely been done by the British firm of Parker Hale. And I over doubled what I paid for it, selling it for 100CAD.
I wish I still had that gun so I could tell you more. Hopefully it has already made it into this database and one day when I have more time I will find it here.
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:51 AM
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My foggy memory tells me that another thing I never really understood about that gun is that it did not have a V prefix in the serial number. Which I am guessing is because it is what is referred to today as a preVictory gun.
It had a 5 inch barrel and what certainly appeared to be original checkered grips. I cannot remember if it has a lanyard ring but my gut tells me it did not.
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Old 09-27-2017, 08:38 AM
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My foggy memory tells me that another thing I never really understood about that gun is that it did not have a V prefix in the serial number. Which I am guessing is because it is what is referred to today as a preVictory gun.
It had a 5 inch barrel and what certainly appeared to be original checkered grips. I cannot remember if it has a lanyard ring but my gut tells me it did not.
If, as it appears, it did indeed have a pre-Victory serial number, the checkered stocks could have been original.

However, this having been one of the Parker-Hale sleeved guns, it is more likely it had a set of the post-war British checkered replacement stocks which we usually see on guns refurbished in Britain. They are encountered with original or shortened barrels, frequently have new sights (usually not the ones with original barrel length like the one you describe), and were often refinished in a commercial blue.
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Old 09-29-2017, 03:04 PM
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That is the last part of the puzzle that started over 40 years ago for me. It did have a commercial blue finish. It makes sense that Parker-Hale would have done that.
Thanks for maintaining this thread.
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