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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #1801  
Old 02-14-2018, 12:31 PM
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Btw, I can’t figure out how to post photos. Any help on that would be appreciated.
Click on Go Advanced below the Quick reply window, scroll below the text window to Manage Attachments, and follow the prompts to attach up to five photos from your device’s photo library. Works with smartphones and larger computers.

A four-inch barrel sounds unusual. Verify the caliber. Usually, those were the .38 Special guns and did not end up in Pakistan.
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:53 PM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! You have to be in advanced mode (Click Go Advanced) to upload up to 5 images per post as attachments. Your pictures should be no larger than 1920x1280 pixels and in a folder you can find on your desktop. If you are using a phone or tablet, get the app Tapatalk and use that. On a desktop, click Go Advanced and then click the paper clip icon (attachment), navigate to , select and upload a picture and repeat for more than one until you are finished. Add your text and submit.

There was a British repair facility during WWII called the Rifle Factory Ishapore. These guns should be stamped R.F.I. on the frame along with other info. They finished the guns after refurbishment with a black paint called Suncorite. The gun you are interested in sounds like one of those refurbished ones. I have heard they rarely put them back together without mixing up the parts. So, check carefully that all the serial numbers match...under barrel, face of cylinder, behind ejector star, inside of yoke arm (look through a chamber to see it) and on the butt of the gun. A mix-and-match gun will lose a lot of value. IMO you are already at the upper end of what I would pay for it, especially if you recoat it. I would bead blast and Parkerize it. That would come closest to a restoration. You can buy an AGI kit from MidwayUSA that will Park a bunch of guns for around $60. And, here's what it'll look like afterward.

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  #1803  
Old 02-14-2018, 04:55 PM
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Lots of great info.

Serial numbers all seem to match.

Here are some photos.
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  #1804  
Old 02-14-2018, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Lots of great info.

Serial numbers all seem to match.

Here are some photos.
That is a five-inch, not a four-inch barrel, and definitely a Pakistani job.

Guy:
Ishapore, in India, did refinishes on these that we know of only in the 1960s, and those were year-stamped (see attached). RFI was only used once it was an Indian government facility. Exactly what the Pakistanis used is still a matter of debate, but it appears not to have been Suncorite. They did a lot of Enfield revolvers like that; most of my info comes from British militaria forums

PS: I must be getting old. Forgot about this discussion last year. This is an Ishapore-refinished example. Different type of black paint finish and year-stamped:

Ishapore Victory Model
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Last edited by Absalom; 02-14-2018 at 05:13 PM.
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  #1805  
Old 02-14-2018, 06:04 PM
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Ok...so let’s set the stage. And yes...I think you are right...it’s a 5” but the tag at the LGS reads 4”

Anyway, gun was made in the US middle of 1944. It was sent likely to I India which was a British colony as part of Lend Lease. It ended up being refinished by Pakistan in the 1960s.

That about right?

So....if I can buy cheap enough and turn it into a nice shooter I am probably doing it justice because I suspect as a collectible it ranks very low.
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  #1806  
Old 02-14-2018, 06:45 PM
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....
Anyway, gun was made in the US middle of 1944. It was sent likely to I India which was a British colony as part of Lend Lease. It ended up being refinished by Pakistan in the 1960s.

That about right?
.....
I’d modify that a little bit:
It was sent to Britain under Lend-lease and (since it’s late-war, likely as a resupply item) shipped and issued either to a British or Indian (at that time not independent) army unit in the India-Burma-China theater. After the war, the British left it there as armament of local forces or police, and after independence and the Hindu-Muslim war of 1948, it ended up on the Pakistani side of the new border. Sometime time before 1968 (in the absence of an importer stamp) a surplus dealer picked it up on the international “war junk” market, and it landed back here.

Last edited by Absalom; 02-14-2018 at 07:23 PM.
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  #1807  
Old 02-14-2018, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
I’d modify that a little bit:
It was sent to Britain under Lend-lease and (since it’s late-war, likely as a resupply item) shipped and issued either to a British or Indian (at that time not independet) army unit in the India-Burma-China theater. After the war, the British left it there as armament of local forces or police, and after independence and the Hindu-Muslim war of 1948, it ended up on the Pakistani side of the new border. Sometime time before 1968 (in the absence of an importer stamp) a surplus dealer picked it up on the international “war junk” market, and it landed back here.

And I think that’s the story!
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  #1808  
Old 02-17-2018, 05:37 PM
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Just picked up this Victory. Wanted to see when made. No refinish on this one. Action is perfect. I figure sometime in 1943. US Property and GHD stamp clean. Serial number is V4168**
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:48 PM
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Default A Victory that has had it rough

I am new to this forum and will try to provide sufficient information on this revolver of mine. I have a Victory model serial number V610107. It is marked on the right side of the barrel 38 S.&W. CTG. I think it has been reblued at some point since most of its dull black finish is gone and most of the markings are faint. It has stars marked all around the cylinder and next to the barrel pin. As well as on top of the barrel. It has a broad arrow next to grip also. As well as one the back strap. It also has a P marked near the hammer.The lanyard ring was ground off. And had aftermarket grips on it that had x’s carved into them as well it looked like someone tried to redo the checkering. It was extremely dirty when I got it. If anyone can help me with the meaning of the markings that would be great.
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  #1810  
Old 02-19-2018, 09:27 PM
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Welcome to the forum, Nick. It just needs a little love...
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  #1811  
Old 02-19-2018, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by walkcubs View Post
Just picked up this Victory. Wanted to see when made. No refinish on this one. Action is perfect. I figure sometime in 1943. US Property and GHD stamp clean. Serial number is V4168**
A nice standard military-shipped US Victory, likely shipped August/September 1943.

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Originally Posted by Victory Nick View Post
..... I have a Victory model serial number V610107. It is marked on the right side of the barrel 38 S.&W. CTG. I think it has been reblued at some point since most of its dull black finish is gone and most of the markings are faint. It has stars marked all around the cylinder and next to the barrel pin. As well as on top of the barrel. It has a broad arrow next to grip also. As well as one the back strap. It also has a P marked near the hammer.....
You have a British Service version of the Victory chambered in .38 S&W, not Special. It’s originally from mid-1944. The “dull black finish being mostly gone” makes me think of a possible post-war arsenal paint job; the many star marks also point in that direction as they are neither factory nor standard post-war British marks. A picture or two in natural light would be really helpful, also close-ups of any markings.
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Old 02-20-2018, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
A nice standard military-shipped US Victory, likely shipped August/September 1943.



You have a British Service version of the Victory chambered in .38 S&W, not Special. It’s originally from mid-1944. The “dull black finish being mostly gone” makes me think of a possible post-war arsenal paint job; the many star marks also point in that direction as they are neither factory nor standard post-war British marks. A picture or two in natural light would be really helpful, also close-ups of any markings.
I will try to get some pictures tomorrow.
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Old 02-20-2018, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by walkcubs View Post
Just picked up this Victory. Wanted to see when made. No refinish on this one. Action is perfect. I figure sometime in 1943. US Property and GHD stamp clean. Serial number is V4168**
V4189xx shipped in 9/43
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  #1814  
Old 02-20-2018, 12:49 PM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, Nick! If it has black paint on it, it was likely worked on at one of the UK's arsenals in India or Pakistan. They put a stove paint on them called Suncorite. No telling what the stars are for. The P is an acceptance stamp when the military received the gun. The broad arrow is a sold out of service stamp when the gun was transferred into private hands. Take pictures with the grips off so we can see anything that may be stamped on the sides of the grip frame.
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  #1815  
Old 02-20-2018, 04:01 PM
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....If it has black paint on it, it was likely worked on at one of the UK's arsenals in India or Pakistan. They put a stove paint on them called Suncorite. No telling what the stars are for. ...
Guy is exactly correct. I had to jolt my memory and check with Charlie Flick, one of our database keepers, who reminded me that I actually knew this once, but the stars are more like asterisks and are re-work marks most likely from Ishapore in India. Most revolvers worked on there have an RFI and year stamp on the barrel (see my post #1804 above), but the asterisk stamping has been attributed to them too. Most were imported by Century Arms. Is there a CAI stamp somewhere? It might not be there because the gun somehow made it here before 1968.

Last edited by Absalom; 02-20-2018 at 04:03 PM.
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  #1816  
Old 02-20-2018, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
the stars are more like asterisks
When the Brits nitro proof tested the cylinder chambers and barrel, they stamped a crown. I don't know what they might have used in India/Pak but it could be a bare crown that looks like a star.
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  #1817  
Old 02-20-2018, 06:24 PM
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The black paint is over 90% gone (little spots here and there). And a dull matte finish is left over. I do not remember seeing any CAI markings and will take pictures when I get home. Thank you all for the feedback so far.
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Old 02-20-2018, 07:24 PM
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More pictures to follow


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  #1819  
Old 02-20-2018, 07:26 PM
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Old 02-20-2018, 07:29 PM
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Old 02-20-2018, 07:30 PM
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Old 02-20-2018, 07:33 PM
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These are the grips that were on it when I got it. Also I think the last photo shows the marking of a CAI stamp.


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  #1823  
Old 02-20-2018, 07:35 PM
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V635xxx shipped 7/44
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  #1824  
Old 02-20-2018, 08:05 PM
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... Also I think the last photo shows the marking of a CAI stamp.
..
It does indeed.
The finish is a bit of a puzzle. The remnants of the really dark thick black paint in some places are obvious, but judging by the condition of the stampings, especially the partly buffed-off MADE IN USA, the dull gray underneath is a refinish also, not the original Victory finish; that would be physically impossible.

If I had to make a WAG, I'd say this gun got first a British suncorite refinish (mostly what's visible now) and then a coarser Indian black paint job that's only left in a few places.
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Old 02-20-2018, 08:13 PM
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It does indeed.

The finish is a bit of a puzzle. The remnants of the really dark thick black paint in some places are obvious, but judging by the condition of the stampings, especially the partly buffed-off MADE IN USA, the dull gray underneath is a refinish also, not the original Victory finish; that would be physically impossible.



If I had to make a WAG, I'd say this gun got first a British suncorite refinish (mostly what's visible now) and then a coarser Indian black paint job that's only left in a few places.


Ok thank you very much for your input.


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  #1826  
Old 02-26-2018, 11:17 PM
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Anyone know what the “B” or maybe it’s an “8” is mere the V?
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  #1827  
Old 02-26-2018, 11:19 PM
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Btw it’s a .38 special serial number 291669. 4”
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Old 02-26-2018, 11:24 PM
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Anyone know what the “B” or maybe it’s an “8” is mere the V?
I think you are referring to the “flaming bomb” ordnance stamp to the left and a bit up from the V. That is found on the butt of Victorys and can be mistaken for a letter. Given the serial, likely late spring 1943, am I correct to assume your gun does not have a US PROPERTY stamp on the topstrap?

Btw., I assume you’re aware that those grips are not the original ones, but post-war.

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Old 02-27-2018, 03:22 PM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, WaterDR!
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Old 02-27-2018, 10:43 PM
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Not my gun but one I was considering.
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Old 03-02-2018, 12:10 AM
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Default Another Victory...

Just picked this up. It does not appear to be property marked in any way. It does have a strange 'CAL. 38 SPECIAL' stamp on the frame under the cylinder. Not a nice stamp either. Marked '38 S&W CTG' on barrel.


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Old 03-02-2018, 01:20 AM
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Just picked this up. It does not appear to be property marked in any way. It does have a strange 'CAL. 38 SPECIAL' stamp on the frame under the cylinder. Not a nice stamp either. Marked '38 S&W CTG' on barrel.
......
Likely from very late 1943 or early 1944.

At that serial, it should have had a US PROPERTY stamping on the topstrap, as only Lend-lease guns were made in that original caliber and configuration at that time. If the stamp isn't there, it was likely disappeared.

The caliber stamping on the frame indicates it was converted to .38 Special after the war. This is observed occasionally, although usually below the cylinder latch. It may just have been one specific converter (of many) who marked his work like this.
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Old 03-02-2018, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
Likely from very late 1943 or early 1944.

At that serial, it should have had a US PROPERTY stamping on the topstrap, as only Lend-lease guns were made in that original caliber and configuration at that time. If the stamp isn't there, it was likely disappeared.

The caliber stamping on the frame indicates it was converted to .38 Special after the war. This is observed occasionally, although usually below the cylinder latch. It may just have been one specific converter (of many) who marked his work like this.
I swear I looked and looked and looked! It does indeed have the U.S. Govt. stamp on it. Was the conversion as simple as boring the cylinders deeper to accept the longer cases?
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Old 03-02-2018, 10:31 AM
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.... Was the conversion as simple as boring the cylinders deeper to accept the longer cases?
That was the way it was usually done. The .38 S&W is a little shorter and slightly fatter. So the Specials are just a bit loose and may bulge, but that’s not safety-relevant. The bullet diameter is close enough for the barrel to produce accuracy at handgun distances. Some not very common, mostly British, conversions were sleeved.
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Old 03-02-2018, 10:32 PM
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I don't know if this will help. But, I have 4" .38 Special #992042 that was part of a 1400 gun DSC shipment in 1942. It went to Wack Manufacturing in Altoona PA.
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Old 03-02-2018, 11:44 PM
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I don't know if this will help. But, I have 4" .38 Special #992042 that was part of a 1400 gun DSC shipment in 1942. It went to Wack Manufacturing in Altoona PA.
Now that’s interesting. Do you have that lettered or did you come by the info another way? I doubt that Wack got 1400 guns, so was this a DSC-direct shipment from which Wack then received their revolvers? The serial is early enough for that.
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Old 03-03-2018, 12:17 AM
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Default Pics added.

It letters as part of the big shipment to various companies through the DSC. This one went to Wack Manufacturing on May 15,1942.

Purists: Avert your eyes!!

I was nickled when I bought it. I'll take the credit (or the blame) for the Catalin stocks. It had Jay Scott faux black "pearls" when I got it. I figured..... what the heck?

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Old 03-08-2018, 03:23 PM
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I have two Victory models to add, I'll do so separately.
First S/N V496557, 4 inch, 38 spl.
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Old 03-08-2018, 04:01 PM
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It letters as part of the big shipment to various companies through the DSC. This one went to Wack Manufacturing...
Never mind the gun, this letter is the interesting part

It contains more information that usual. All DSC letters I’ve seen so far either show shipment to the DSC warehouse in DC (early 1942) with no mention of the end user, or directly to the end user on a DSC contract, but with no mention of direct DSC involvement (from later 1942 to 1945).

I think your letter represents that confused time in spring 1942 when the DSC was transitioning from its initial plan, to actual handle the physical distribution of the revolvers, to just approving factory-direct shipments. So the S&W records show it as both sold to the DSC, but no longer shipped there, but directly to Wack (and other approved users).

Another oddity about this letter are the “checkered walnut” grips and “blue finish”. By May 15, DSC Victorys had been receiving the smooth style stocks and utility finish for at least four months. I’ve got 910507 from Jan. 27, DSC-shipped and lettered with smooth walnut stocks.
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Old 03-08-2018, 04:02 PM
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Second.....S/N 288699, 6 inch, barrel marked 38 S&W, left side frame stamped. 38 special. U S property marked on top strap, without P stamp.
The number 81 stamped on bottom on left side gri.p
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Old 03-08-2018, 04:22 PM
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...
First S/N V496557, 4 inch, 38 spl.
A nice, apparently all original US military shipped gun, early 1944.

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Second.....S/N 288699, 6 inch, barrel marked 38 S&W, left side frame stamped. 38 special. U S property marked on top strap, without P stamp.
The number 81 stamped on bottom on left side gri.p
A British Service model from spring 1943. I believe its serial puts it into the time period where the P proof was no longer applied to the butt, but not yet applied on the frame (also cylinder and barrel) like on your other one. The front sight appears modified, and the cylinder was reamed to accept .38 Special. We have not identified yet which converter it was who stamped the caliber on the frame; we see this exact style of stamping occasionally, but most so converted were not marked.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:55 PM
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I just got the ship date on a Victory I bought last week. I'll pick it up from my FFL tomorrow. It shipped 12/43.

S/N V477114, 4", not sure of the finish yet or the amount of rust I'll have to deal with. It is a .38 special and I don't think the cylinder has been reamed.






The pin remains in the swivel hole and I have a reproduction swivel (courtesy of Numrich) waiting for it.

Based on the markings on the backstrap it did see post WWII service in Hessen, Germany.

Needless to say the stocks are not original.
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:05 PM
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....
Based on the markings on the backstrap it did see post WWII service in Hessen, Germany.
.
The picture’s resolution doesn’t let me recognize anything after the HE - ... on the backstrap. If you know what’s there, I can possibly narrow it down further.
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:14 PM
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The picture’s resolution doesn’t let me recognize anything after the HE - ... on the backstrap. If you know what’s there, I can possibly narrow it down further.
Thanks for bringing that up, I forgot to mention it. On one I got last year V650093 (shipped 8/44) it had the HE-M on the back strap and you laid that out for me.

On this one I am not sure there is a letter following the dash and there is an "M" on the butt frame. I was thinking maybe they just marked it there?
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:23 PM
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Targets Guy,
Who made those stocks?
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:49 PM
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Targets Guy,
Who made those stocks?
Not sure .44. I get the gun tomorrow and will check it out. The seller said possible Sile.
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:29 AM
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Second.....S/N 288699, 6 inch, barrel marked 38 S&W, left side frame stamped. 38 special. U S property marked on top strap, without P stamp.
The number 81 stamped on bottom on left side gri.p
That looks like a 5" barrel to me. Please measure from the front of the cylinder to the end of the barrel. The lanyard loop is a bit different as well.
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:32 AM
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That looks like a 5" barrel to me. Please measure from the front of the cylinder to the end of the barrel. The lanyard loop is a bit different as well.
Good catch, missed that in the original post. Can’t be 6” at that serial if it’s original.
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:45 PM
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The picture’s resolution doesn’t let me recognize anything after the HE - ... on the backstrap. If you know what’s there, I can possibly narrow it down further.
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Targets Guy,
Who made those stocks?
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Not sure .44. I get the gun tomorrow and will check it out. The seller said possible Sile.
Okay. I picked up the Victory today. Proper stocks on and I still need to install the swivel. The only markings on the inside of the stocks was a capitol "J" on the right stock.

The markings on the backstrap are HE-M; just like the one I have from 1944.

Putting the penny to work to attack the rust. The action on the gun is superb. I don't think it was fired very much at all. S/N's match on the cylinder, butt frame and barrel flat to include the "V" prefix.



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Old 03-09-2018, 10:34 PM
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Newly acquired and very curious about this. Greatly considering getting the info ($75 worth) from s&w.
As far as I can tell all #s match. Finish is pretty thin.
Serial is V242619, has US NAVY on top and the bomb near serial. (Which I thought was an 8...)

Not sure how to add pics yet.

Last edited by RobJunkins; 03-09-2018 at 10:35 PM. Reason: Added to reply
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