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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #2051  
Old 11-28-2019, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donkoz View Post
Serial number on the bottom of the barrel: V282560
The serial places it in mid-1943.

You show the serial on the underbarrel, which is indeed the correct serial. But the legal primary serial (same number) should be on the bottom of the butt, next to a (likely plugged) hole for the lanyard swivel this gun used to have.

Also, is there a US PROPERTY GHD stamping visible on the top strap above the cylinder?
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  #2052  
Old 11-28-2019, 03:52 PM
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Plugged hole there. No serial number on butt or evidence there was one. No US stamp on top.
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  #2053  
Old 11-28-2019, 04:08 PM
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Ok. I have a good(bad) one to show.

5 inch barrel. .38 S & W. Refinished, it's now blued instead of parkerized. Barrel has no number at all. Assembly numbers on frame and crane don't match. Cylinder number does not match. A good thing, it still has it's own sideplate.. It's marked US property GHD on the top strap and p behind the cylinder. And it's marked Bavaria Municipal Police. No British marks. A marking I can't decypher above the front end of the trigger guard. Serial number V666397(great three first numbers, right?).

It's still a work in progress. It came with the bolt plunger bushing missing. Fixed that only to find out the crane was out of whack so the latch will not close because the center pin will not align with the hole. currently waiting for the tool to fix that to arrive.


But it was the only M & P type I found. So I bought it anyway

Edit. Almost forgot. It has "modern" German civilian proof marks.

Now my usual lousy pictures.

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  #2054  
Old 11-28-2019, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by donkoz View Post
Plugged hole there. No serial number on butt or evidence there was one. No US stamp on top.
Then the butt serial has been scrubbed thoroughly, and itís technically illegal. Since the property stamp could have been there or not, we canít know anymore.

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Originally Posted by Kurusu View Post
It's marked US property GHD on the top strap and p behind the cylinder. And it's marked Bavaria Municipal Police. No British marks. A marking I can't decypher above the front end of the trigger guard. Serial number V666397...

Edit. Almost forgot. It has "modern" German civilian proof marks.
....
So the frame, originally made in mid-1944, was a Bavarian Police gun issued in early 1946 and then sold commercially (the proofs) in Germany. If the barrel does not have a German proof (I canít see one), it was replaced after the gun left Germany. I canít make out that other marking either.
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  #2055  
Old 12-07-2019, 05:27 PM
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Can you share with us what department?
Lobo, sorry for delay, Hamilton County (Ohio) Sheriff.
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  #2056  
Old 01-03-2020, 01:41 PM
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Hello everybody
Mine is V367699, US property on frame, G. H. D
38 s&w. Parkerized finish. Parachuted to french resistance by S.O.E (Someone was engraving his initials on left grip...)
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  #2057  
Old 01-12-2020, 11:58 AM
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Hello. I have another one to add.
V661635
US property on frame, G. H. D
Any info on ship date would be greatly appreciated.
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  #2058  
Old 01-12-2020, 06:20 PM
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Closest one I have listed is SN V662384, shipping on 8/22/44. Does it have a U. S. PROPERTY topstrap stamping? What is the caliber and barrel length?
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  #2059  
Old 01-13-2020, 11:45 AM
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DWalt,
V661635 has the following
-Flaming bomb, US property G. H. D on top strap
-38 special
-4" barrel

Thanks for the info!
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  #2060  
Old 01-13-2020, 01:24 PM
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Then it is most probably what is called the DSC version (Defense Supplies Corporation). DSC was a government agency, one of its functions being procurement of handguns for essential civilian users, such as civilian law enforcement agencies and defense plant security guards. During WWII, most sales of new guns to civilians was discontinued, as everything was going to the military (also true for automobiles). The fact that your Victory has no topstrap property stamping indicates it was not shipped for military service. There are other possibilities, for example, guns supplied to the Merchant Marine and OSS, which are similarly unmarked. But in the grand scheme, almost all Victories without a topstrap property stamping will be DSC.

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  #2061  
Old 01-13-2020, 02:01 PM
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DWalt ,
As previously stated (V661635) does have the tops trap stamped with the flaming bomb + US PROPERTY GHD.
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  #2062  
Old 01-13-2020, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by franck1963 View Post
Hello everybody
Mine is V367699, US property on frame, G. H. D
38 s&w. Parkerized finish. Parachuted to french resistance by S.O.E (Someone was engraving his initials on left grip...)
The gun would be from later 1943, maybe August.

Since your header says USA/France, may we assume the gun is in France and you have some provenance on it? Both SOE and OSS did provide these to the resistance.
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  #2063  
Old 01-13-2020, 06:13 PM
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"DWalt ,
As previously stated (V661635) does have the tops trap stamped with the flaming bomb + US PROPERTY GHD."


Sorry, that did not register. Too much in a hurry I guess. With the topstrap stamping, it's about 99% certain it went to the U. S. Navy. GHD are the initials of Col (later Brigadier General) Guy H. Drewry, Army Inspector of Ordnance for the Springfield Ordnance District. See: Brigadier General Guy H. Drewry, Ordnance Corps Hall of Fame Inductee 1996, U.S. Army Ordnance Corps
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  #2064  
Old 01-19-2020, 07:03 PM
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hello, just joined the forum and i would like to know more about the victory model i just picked up. S/N V492072 has what appears to be german proof stamps, RH stock has complete SN stamped in it. any information would be great. forgot to add, has a "Geco" stamp on the butt.
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  #2065  
Old 01-19-2020, 08:11 PM
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hello, just joined the forum and i would like to know more about the victory model i just picked up. S/N V492072 has what appears to be german proof stamps, RH stock has complete SN stamped in it. any information would be great. forgot to add, has a "Geco" stamp on the butt.
It shipped originally in early 1944.

After the war, it was issued by US occupation authorities to Bavarian police in early 1946, where it remained into the 1950s. The milled-out area on the left frame said most likely BAVARIA (on top) and RURAL or BORDER POLICE (on the bottom). It looks a bit short for MUNICIPAL, the other option.

Then it was sold, with many companions, to Geco, a large dealer/wholesaler, who put his mark on it and had it commercial-proofed for Germany, and from there it made its way through the surplus market into your hands.
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Old 01-19-2020, 09:41 PM
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I have seen several others having the German police markings milled off. I have read that some of these revolvers were sold off very cheaply through U. S. Military Rod and Gun Clubs at bases in Germany during the postwar period.
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  #2067  
Old 01-19-2020, 11:46 PM
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I have seen several others having the German police markings milled off. I have read that some of these revolvers were sold off very cheaply through U. S. Military Rod and Gun Clubs at bases in Germany during the postwar period.
It is not clear who did the milling, but at least by my unscientific observation there are more ex-Bavarian revolvers in the market with the marking intact than with it milled out. I also know for a fact that Bavaria sold these centrally, so they were all treated alike, which means the milling occurred post-service by some subsequent wholesaler.

In view of the more restrictive gun laws in West Germany which limited the customer base, selling these cheaply to rod-and-gun clubs on US bases, most conveniently located in Southern Germany where these guns were on offer, was an attractive option.
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Old 01-20-2020, 07:06 PM
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Another Victory to add. Purchased at a gun show approximately a year ago for $600. S/N on the butt, bottom of the barrel, and rear face of the cylinder is V390652. Right grip also has the same serial number. The 5” barrel has the typical Smith & Wesson patent information on the top, Smith & Wesson on the left side, and 38 S & W Special Ctg on the right side. The upper top strap has, starting from the front, the flaming bomb, U S Property, G.H.D. The right side plate has the S & W trademark logo. Bottom right side of the frame has Made In USA. Overall the parkerized revolver is in excellent shape. Very faint turn line on the cylinder and hardly any wear to the finish on the ejector rod.
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  #2069  
Old 01-20-2020, 07:22 PM
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...S/N on the butt, bottom of the barrel, and rear face of the cylinder is V390652. Right grip also has the same serial number. The 5Ē barrel has the typical Smith & Wesson patent information on the top, Smith & Wesson on the left side, and 38 S & W Special Ctg on the right side...
The serial places the gun in later 1943.

But there is a problem. At that point in time, there were no Victory models made in .38 Special with a 5Ē barrel. So a gun with 5Ē barrel, .38 Special on that barrel, and matching serials on butt and barrel flat cannot exist unless itís a complete post-war rebuilt from unmarked M&P parts, which would be odd.

Are you certain that you measured the barrel length correctly?
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Old 01-20-2020, 08:53 PM
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I noticed the same thing. At that time, only those Victories chambered in .38 S&W had 5" barrels, and those with 4" barrels left the factory chambered for .38 S&W Special. Those are two different cartridges. Are you sure that the original factory barrel stamping says .38 S&W Special CTG, or is it possibly .38 S&W CTG? So something is amiss in your description or else your Victory is not in its original as-manufactured configuration. The barrel length is measured from the front face of the cylinder to the muzzle.

The closest SN on my list to your V390652 is V389892 which shipped in 9/43.

Last edited by DWalt; 01-20-2020 at 09:03 PM.
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  #2071  
Old 01-20-2020, 10:04 PM
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I recently was shown a revolver I was told was RCMP issued, and was wondering about it's provenance.
It's a 38spl S&W model 10 ( I believe) with serial number V636851, can anyone tell me the date of issue? I'm sorry I don't know any more markings, are there marks I should look for that might give more information?

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Old 01-20-2020, 10:50 PM
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Welcome to new members max136, Jetfixer3 and LAJW III.

LAJW III, you have a .38 Victory model from WW II. Model numbers were not assigned by S&W until 1957.

How long is the barrel and how does the caliber stamp read? Generally, 4" barreled Victories were chambered in .38 special and 5" barreled Victories were chambered in .38 S&W, which is a shorter, fatter cartridge that does not interchange with the .38 special. However, after the war, many of the .38 S&W revolvers were rechambered to .38 special.
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  #2073  
Old 01-20-2020, 11:24 PM
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Got ahold of these pics:

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Old 01-20-2020, 11:25 PM
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It says "38 S.&W.Special CTG" on the barrel, in case it isn't clear in the pic.

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Old 01-20-2020, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by LAJW_III View Post
I recently was shown a revolver I was told was RCMP issued, and was wondering about it's provenance.
It's a 38spl S&W model 10 ( I believe) with serial number V636851, can anyone tell me the date of issue? I'm sorry I don't know any more markings, are there marks I should look for that might give more information?
In regards to the RCMP, while anything is possible during wartime, the RCMPís issue sidearm from the early 1900s until the early 1950s was the .455/.45 Colt New Service, and there seems to be no compelling reason why they should have ended up with a different brand and different caliber. So unless there is any kind of documentation, any connection would be hard to prove. There was no standard identifying marking which Iím aware of, and the gun, no matter which type of Victory it is, would be unlikely to letter directly to a foreign agency at that time.

The revolver, based on the serial, was made in mid-1944.
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Old 01-20-2020, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
In regards to the RCMP, while anything is possible during wartime, the RCMPís issue sidearm from the early 1900s until the early 1950s was the .455/.45 Colt New Service, and there seems to be no compelling reason why they should have ended up with a different brand and different caliber. So unless there is any kind of documentation, any connection would be hard to prove. There was no standard identifying marking which Iím aware of, and the gun, no matter which type of Victory it is, would be unlikely to letter directly to a foreign agency at that time.



The revolver, based on the serial, was made in mid-1944.
Thanks for the date info!
No documentation on the RCMP link, it's just a Canadian guy who has it! Victory data base
Probably what he was told third or fourth hand, who knows.

Which cartridge is this chambered in, 38spl or 38S&W? The barrel seems... ambiguous to me.

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Old 01-21-2020, 12:03 AM
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LAJW-


Read the (four-inch) barrel! It's a .38 Special. No idea how a Canadian got it, but no RCMP provenance.

Their guns usually have an intertwined MP marking, BTW.

They adopted the M&P in 1954, and it became the Model 10 after 1957. Their guns had five inch barrels, commercially blued, and were std. until replaced by S&W DA-only 9mm's, I think around 1990.

Guns like that shown are known mainly for USN use, esp. by aviators. But USAF used many during the Viet war, due to shortages of our Combat Masterpiece .38. I often wore a Victory model then.

Last edited by Texas Star; 01-21-2020 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:11 AM
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L JW_


Read the barrel! It's a .38 Special. No idea how a Canadian got it, but no RCMP provenance.

Their guns usually have an intertwined MP marking, BTW.

They adopted the M&P in 1954, and it became the Model 10 after 1957. Their guns had five inch barrels, commercially blued, and were std. until replaced by S&W DA-only 9mm's, I think around 1990.

Guns like that shown are known mainly for USN use, esp. by aviators. But USAF used many during the Viet war, due to shortages of our Combat Masterpiece .38. I often wore a Victory model then.
Barrel says 38S.&W.Special, that's why I was asking. You're saying that means 38spl, good enough for me.

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Old 01-21-2020, 12:24 AM
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Yes, .38 S&W Special is the ctg. There was a .38 Colt Special, differing only in having a flatter nose profile on the bullet.

You seem BADLY in need of basic gun knowledge. I suggest finding and buying Geoffrey Boothroyd's, The Handgun, Crown Publishers, 1970 and Elmer Keith's, Sixguns, 1961 rev. ed. Those are a good basic start in learning.
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:43 AM
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Yes, .38 S&W Special is the ctg. There was a .38 Colt Special, differing only in having a flatter nose profile on the bullet.

You seem BADLY in need of basic gun knowledge. I suggest finding and buying Geoffrey Boothroyd's, The Handgun, Crown Publishers, 1970 and Elmer Keith's, Sixguns, 1961 rev. ed. Those are a good basic start in learning.
Thanks for being rude to someone asking for help. The other member above stated that 38S&W was different from 38SPL. The weapon I was asking about is marked with both terms.
I'm sorry my knowledge of 80 year old guns isn't up to your standards.
I'll stick with my 19 years (so far) of experience with modern weapons across 7 years of combat in three theaters.

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Old 01-21-2020, 12:11 PM
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Gentlemen. I sincerely apologize for any confusion that I caused yesterday by mistakenly saying that my Victory revolver S/N V390652 had a 5Ē barrel. It was totally my mistake as it really is a 4Ē barrel. All the other information I gave was correct. I really do know how to measure a revolver barrel and how to read a ruler. Why I typed 5 instead of 4 I will never know.
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Old 01-22-2020, 02:31 AM
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Does the victory database note if the submission was a ďred letterĒ revolver? I ask because Iím curious if these were encountered around a specific serial number range or were more random. Over on gunboards for example I was just looking at a pre victory gun red letter marked property of u.s. navy. It was surprising to me as I thought that was a Victory revolver only pantograph marking on guns shipped to navy. Admittedly Iím new to this. How early was the navy doing this? Did they apply it to non S&W guns?


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Old 01-22-2020, 11:28 AM
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The Red (and White) letter revolvers were not engraved by S&W. Apparently early on, they were engraved at various Navy yards and the engraving filled with paint. So historical letters will not address the property engraving. The highest SN on my list having an engraving is V1354xx, but most on my list are either pre-Victories or very low in the Victory SN range.
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Old 01-22-2020, 02:31 PM
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Good day . this is my new SW model Victory. SN V452492. There is a special BAZ marking on the rear handle. The numbers on all parts match. Sorry for my English.
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Old 01-22-2020, 03:40 PM
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Good day . this is my new SW model Victory. SN V452492. There is a special BAZ marking on the rear handle. The numbers on all parts match. Sorry for my English.
The gun is originally from later 1943, around November.

After the war, US authorities issued it to German police in occupied Berlin.

The stamp means
B = Berlin
A = Amerikanischer Sektor
Z = Zehlendorf (the city district)

Above is the Berlin police star, sometimes called a sunburst or rosette.
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Old 01-22-2020, 06:39 PM
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Thanks you Very match. Caliber 38 SW Special. Barel 4 inches.
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Old 01-26-2020, 07:20 PM
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This has been a very interesting thread.

I have a Victory, serial number V639265 to share for the data base. Serial number is also on the outer lip of the cylinder face.

It has a flaming bomb on the right side but has no other government markings. Top strap has no markings.

It has been Parkerized at some point.

Any information would be appreciated.







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Old 01-27-2020, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Puller View Post
This has been a very interesting thread.

I have a Victory, serial number V639265 to share for the data base. Serial number is also on the outer lip of the cylinder face.

It has a flaming bomb on the right side but has no other government markings. Top strap has no markings.

It has been Parkerized at some point.

Any information would be appreciated.
That's an odd placement for the flaming bomb and the finish looks like Parkerizing. Could be an arsenal refinish. Is there a P stamped on the left side of the frame under the hammer, rear face of the cylinder and on the barrel flat? More pictures would be helpful.
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Old 01-27-2020, 05:54 PM
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RE: Puller's post from yesterday.

It's certainly been refinished (parkerized... different from the original S&W proprietary phosphate 'Military Midnight Black' ). Perhaps the flaming bomb, U.S. Property, G.H.D. stamping was removed???

It's also odd that the flaming bomb Ordnance acceptance stamp is missing from both the frame 'butt' and the top strap but a, what appears to me, oversized rendering is stamped on the frame beneath the MADE IN U.S.A.

Is the bottom of the barrel (when cylinder is open) clearly marked V 639265? Are the grips numbered to the gun?
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Old 01-27-2020, 06:07 PM
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Does not appear to be a P stamped anywhere. Grips are marked with s/n .

Here's some more pictures as requested.













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Last edited by Puller; 01-27-2020 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 01-27-2020, 06:25 PM
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Does not appear to be a P stamped anywhere. Grips are marked with s/n. Here's some more pictures as requested.
It's clear in the third photo that the serial number has been ground off the bottom of the barrel (or, it's a replacement barrel that was never numbered). However, the grips, cylinder and frame match. The normal ordnance acceptance stamps are gone, but, an oversize flaming bomb has been applied to the frame's right side.

I don't have any guesses other then the missing serial number and ordnance acceptance stamps were removed during the refinishing prep. Perhaps someone will be along with a plausible explanation or theory.
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Old 01-28-2020, 03:00 PM
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The gun would be from later 1943, maybe August.

Since your header says USA/France, may we assume the gun is in France and you have some provenance on it? Both SOE and OSS did provide these to the resistance.
Yes, this revolver is in France . Provided to local resistance group (Area of Toulouse) The owner of gun was engraving his initials on left grip. The gun was bought to grandson of this man.
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Old 01-28-2020, 05:00 PM
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....
I have a Victory, serial number V639265 to share for the data base. Serial number is also on the outer lip of the cylinder face.

It has a flaming bomb on the right side but has no other government markings. Top strap has no markings.
By V 639265, mid-1944, all Victorys, whether military or DSC, received the triple P proof, so while a non-serialed (probably post-war) replacement barrel wonít have one, those on cylinder and frame in front of the hammer should be there.

US arsenal refinished Victorys arenít a thing. That doesnít mean that some bored unit or depot armorer somewhere might not have done a gun or a few, but there was no organized effort or program like on earlier .38 DA Colts during WW I or the .45 revolvers in the inter-war years. The military had too many after 1945 and started surplusing them out and selling them on to PDís and such soon after the war.

Another consideration is that the original US Ordnance flaming bomb was not standardized and appeared in various shapes and sizes. And any ordnance stamp you desire is available for purchase, surplus and replica. It will be hard, likely impossible, to determine whether this stamp means anything or the refinisher just fancied a cool decoration.
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Old 01-28-2020, 05:50 PM
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Does not appear to be a P stamped anywhere. Grips are marked with s/n
I am pretty sure I can make out a “P” on the frame and one on the cylinder, I looked on where they were on one of mine so I would know where to look. They are both faint, but once I zoomed in they can be made out.

I am fairly new to the Victory world but I don’t think I have seen a flaming bomb in that location either. I would lean toward thinking it is a more recent addition, it looks pretty well defined, most of the other markings are pretty well worn. Maybe a DSC firearm someone added the flaming bomb to, no real reason to grind the top off just to add a bomb somewhere else, unless it was just too far worn after refinishing.

Last edited by anonymouscow; 01-28-2020 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 01-28-2020, 07:05 PM
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I am pretty sure I can make out a ďPĒ on the frame and one on the cylinder, I looked on where they were on one of mine so I would know where to look. They are both faint, but once I zoomed in they can be made out.
.....
Bingo. You got better eyes than I do. I had to bring the photos up on the desktop and enlarge them, but Iíve got both Pís now, too. Especially the one on the frame suffered a lot from the refinish. Theyíre usually much sharper.
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:38 PM
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I am pretty sure I can make out a “P” on the frame and one on the cylinder, I looked on where they were on one of mine so I would know where to look. They are both faint, but once I zoomed in they can be made out.
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Bingo. You got better eyes than I do. I had to bring the photos up on the desktop and enlarge them, but I’ve got both P’s now, too. Especially the one on the frame suffered a lot from the refinish. They’re usually much sharper.
Okay, now that I know where to look I can see the "P" on the frame and the "P" on the cylinder face.

The flat area under the barrel does not show any tell tale signs of grinding, so I'm assuming it may be a replacement barrel.

I appreciate the information gentlemen.
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Last edited by Puller; 01-28-2020 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 02-06-2020, 09:48 AM
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Pre-Victory Model?

I ran across a thread, linked above, that has a pre-victory with similar characteristics to the victory in the previous few posts, pictures from that thread posted below.

Similar flaming bomb (except on the left side of the frame), barrel swap (except serial numbers re-stamped), and looks to be refinished.





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Old 02-06-2020, 12:05 PM
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This was my attempt to compare the two flaming bombs. I am just using my phone so itís not exact, also the photo on the left was taken at an angle and it looks like they were struck a little differently or worn differently. The flames look a little different, not that it it really makes a difference one way or another, itís mostly just how I entertain myself.
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Old 02-09-2020, 11:17 AM
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Default Victory Model that I inherited

I am looking for info on the history of the pistol that I inherited from my Mom.
The serial number is V231531. It has the large "P" stamp on the barrel and the "BNP" proof mark.


Any info is appreciated.

Last edited by CharlieP187; 02-09-2020 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 02-09-2020, 11:51 AM
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I am looking for info on the history of the pistol that I inherited from my Mom.
The serial number is V231531. It has the large "P" stamp on the barrel and the "BNP" proof mark.


Any info is appreciated.
We canít get very specific, but the BNP (Birmingham Nitro Proof) would indicate that it is chambered in .38 S&W, has or at least had a 5Ē barrel and a US property stamping on the topstrap, and based on the serial was shipped to Britain under Lend-Lease in spring 1943.

Where is that ďlarge PĒ located on the barrel? A photo would be helpful.
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