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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #2251  
Old 06-14-2020, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by grendelbean View Post
Roy kindly gave his opinion the Navy Victory Model was indeed refinished at the factory in November 1961. This Victory was refinished for an individual collector, as has been previously suggested and pointed out. An advertisement of the time, provided by another member, shows S&W did refinish for individuals on a single-gun basis - for about $16.50. Victory Models were refinished in the original finish only, not changed to another kind of finish. All this knowledge from others in the forum and is respectfully appreciated. I begin to feel I am learning something about these great pieces of history.
Thanks for the additional info. I can't help but wonder how many Victory examples S&W refinished that the current owners don't even know about?

I have looked at all of mine...ÖÖÖÖ...and zilch. Not that that's a very large sample size by any means.

Dale
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Old 06-14-2020, 12:51 PM
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grendelbean,

Have you posted more overall pics of your factory refinished Victory example yet? If yes can you tell me where?

I'm curious if the 1961 refinish is noticeably different than the wartime finish.

Thanks,
Dale
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  #2253  
Old 06-14-2020, 07:12 PM
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Thanks for the additional info. I can't help but wonder how many Victory examples S&W refinished that the current owners don't even know about?

I have looked at all of mine...ÖÖÖÖ...and zilch. Not that that's a very large sample size by any means.

Dale
Well, something tells me now you have to keep an eye out for a factory refinished one to add to your collection donít ya
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Old 06-14-2020, 07:24 PM
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Speaking of S&W factory refinished, would the factory have replaced the wood stocks on Victory revolvers when they did that work?

The reason I ask is that my Victory sure looks like it might have been factory refinished, but the right side stock is "used & abused" to the max. Somebody carried it and bumped into a whole lot of doors and stuff.
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Old 06-14-2020, 07:47 PM
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Well, something tells me now you have to keep an eye out for a factory refinished one to add to your collection donít ya
There is always "one more" to add.
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Old 06-14-2020, 07:54 PM
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Speaking of S&W factory refinished, would the factory have replaced the wood stocks on Victory revolvers when they did that work?

The reason I ask is that my Victory sure looks like it might have been factory refinished, but the right side stock is "used & abused" to the max. Somebody carried it and bumped into a whole lot of doors and stuff.
I guess if they still had the plain uncheckered/nonmedallioned stocks in inventory they could have, especially at the customer's request.

I would think that they might have serialized the new R/H stock as well, assuming the revolver was refinished before they quit serializing the stocks.

It is not uncommon to find one stock having more wear than the other depending upon whether or not the previous users(s) were predominantly right handed or left handed.

Maybe with your example a previous owner simply replaced the unserialized left side stock but thought twice about replacing the serialized right side stock? (Does the fit of the left side stock look proper enough to possibly be original to the revolver? I am assuming the right side stock is serialized matching.....)

Who knows, but maybe a SWHF search would turn up exactly what work was performed if it was factory reworked/refinished?

Dale

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  #2257  
Old 06-16-2020, 11:40 AM
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Default Factory Refinished Navy Victory Model from 1961

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Originally Posted by tenntex32 View Post
grendelbean,

Have you posted more overall pics of your factory refinished Victory example yet? If yes can you tell me where?

I'm curious if the 1961 refinish is noticeably different than the wartime finish.

Thanks,
Dale
Under the stocks, which appeared to never have been removed since installation, the finish was what appeared to be the classic "Black Magic" finish. Elsewhere, the finish showed typical wear. Here are five pictures to illustrate.
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  #2258  
Old 06-17-2020, 12:11 PM
Gabriel Possenti Gabriel Possenti is offline
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I wanted to get a Victory Model into your database. I'm not having much luck with pics, but can give this information:

1.) 4" barrel,

2.) 38 smith and wesson special CTG

3.) Serial number: V146061 next to the lanyard loop on the butt.

4.) On the other side of the lanyard loop on the butt is the small flaming bomb symbol. (No other marks like a "W." Just the bomb symbol).

5.) Other markings: A tiny flaming bomb symbol also appears behind the yoke.

The top left strap has no markings like GHD, U.S. Navy, U.S. property, or anything like that. It looks completely plain.

6.) Finish--it smooth like a blued finish, but not as dark. Parkerized finishes that I've seen on other arms aren't as smooth as this. I think it may be the black magic oxide finish

Would it be worth getting a factory letter on this gun?

I don't know if this helps with the database, but the right stock on the above gun has a matching serial number (V146061). The left grip does not have a number at all.

It's probably insignificant, but the number on the wood looks to have been stamped rather haphazardly. I'm guessing it was done by hand by someone who wasn't all that concerend with keeping the digits evenly spaced or on the same line.
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Old 06-17-2020, 03:41 PM
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I don't know if this helps with the database, but the right stock on the above gun has a matching serial number (V146061). The left grip does not have a number at all.

It's probably insignificant, but the number on the wood looks to have been stamped rather haphazardly. I'm guessing it was done by hand by someone who wasn't all that concerend with keeping the digits evenly spaced or on the same line.
This is correct and indicates the stocks were original to the gun. Only the right panel was stamped. Stock numbers of this period are usually not lined up properly, and applied carelessly; nobody was going to see them once the gun left the factory, and future collectors likely did not figure in anyoneís priorities
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Old 06-18-2020, 03:16 PM
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Default Victory Model Post Factory Markings

Just purchased a Navy contract Victory Model with Post Factory Markiings on left frame "PROPERTY OF U.S. NAVY" (In two lines). There are traces of white paint in the letters.
This prompted me to casually ask myself "Why isn't this engraving filled with red paint?" After all, that was what I had most often seen or read about.
I wonder if it makes any sort of interesting minor detail whether such paint color makes, or once made, any sort of difference? Does anyone know or have a hunch? Not that it makes any difference of course, just a product of curiosity and time to pass in Covid-19 isolation.
I wondered if the red was used for guard weapons at the ammunition piers in Oakland. If the while was used on the dry goods loading jetty on Treasure Island.?
Or - did it just result from the Gunners Mate striker who was detailed to paint guns that day picked up a can of white paint instead of the nearby red...... (I fully realize that is the probable true story)
Just couldn't help asking if anyone had an info related to such markings on Navy revolvers? Thanks, you'all.
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Old 06-18-2020, 09:38 PM
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I have seen both red and white paint-filled engraving. No idea if there is any significance to the paint color. No one seems to know the details about the property engraving, except that it was not done by S&W and that it appears mainly on those with low SNs. What is the SN of yours?
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Old 06-19-2020, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Gabriel Possenti View Post
I wanted to get a Victory Model into your database. I'm not having much luck with pics, but can give this information:

1.) 4" barrel,

2.) 38 smith and wesson special CTG

3.) Serial number: V146061 next to the lanyard loop on the butt.

4.) On the other side of the lanyard loop on the butt is the small flaming bomb symbol. (No other marks like a "W." Just the bomb symbol).

5.) Other markings: A tiny flaming bomb symbol also appears behind the yoke.

The top left strap has no markings like GHD, U.S. Navy, U.S. property, or anything like that. It looks completely plain.

6.) Finish--it smooth like a blued finish, but not as dark. Parkerized finishes that I've seen on other arms aren't as smooth as this. I think it may be the black magic oxide finish

Would it be worth getting a factory letter on this gun?
This is most likely what is referred to as a DSC gun. Personally, I would get a letter on this one. Generally you know where a US Navy or US Property gun went when it left the factory. Sometimes you get a nice surprise as to where an unmarked gun was shipped when it left the factory. I'm sure it will be worth the investment. Let us know what you find out!
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Old 06-19-2020, 12:13 PM
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Default Navy Marked Victory Model

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Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
I have seen both red and white paint-filled engraving. No idea if there is any significance to the paint color. No one seems to know the details about the property engraving, except that it was not done by S&W and that it appears mainly on those with low SNs. What is the SN of yours?
Thanks for the information. This is another beauty of this forum. There is always someone who actually knows and is willing to share and educate others. Thanks again.
This Victory is serial V115291. An early number. Seems it was part of an original or early Navy contract with S&W. Thank you again.

Last edited by grendelbean; 06-19-2020 at 04:19 PM. Reason: Correcting gross stupidity,
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  #2264  
Old 06-19-2020, 12:20 PM
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Thanks for the information. I was not aware the engraving was done at the factory.
grendelbean you misread. The left sideframe/painted engraving was not done by the S&W factory.

Dale

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Old 06-19-2020, 04:20 PM
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Thanks - corrected.
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Old 06-24-2020, 04:31 PM
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Default Victory Cylinder Marking

This mark is on the cylinder of my Victory. Does anyone know what it is and has it been seen on any other Smith & Wessons?
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Old 06-24-2020, 05:32 PM
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This mark is on the cylinder of my Victory. Does anyone know what it is and has it been seen on any other Smith & Wessons?
Hm. Iím pretty sure itís an overlaying double-strike of whatever letter/number/symbol, but no matter how long I stare at an enlargement, the curtain doesnít open

Normally, we donít see any letters except the V and if applicable an S on the cylinder face, so Iím stumped. Maybe Iím missing something obvious .....
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Old 06-24-2020, 06:22 PM
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This mark is on the cylinder of my Victory. Does anyone know what it is and has it been seen on any other Smith & Wessons?
It is a doublestamped "S". Most likely an accident when the "S" was stamped.

I have read where the "S" is found on Victory examples indicates the part required additional "SERVICE" before passing inspection at the factory. (Hopefully someone with the actual Victory service "S" stamp info will expound further as to it's validity.)

I have several Victory examples with the "S" stamped on the yoke, rear cylinder face, and grip frame, but not all of my Victory examples have the "S" stamped on them.

I have posted pics of an example with the "S" stamp on it's yoke, rear cylinder face, and both sides of it's lower grip frame. I can't help but feel that one of the "S" stamps on the grip frame is an actual inspector's initial, and the other is the service "S" stamp. On my other examples that have the "S" service stamp on the yoke and rear cylinder face, they also have the "S" on the right side lower grip frame.

HTH,
Dale
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Old 06-24-2020, 07:01 PM
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It is a doublestamped "S". Most likely an accident when the "S" was stamped.

I have read where the "S" is found on Victory examples indicates the part required additional "SERVICE" before passing inspection at the factory. (Hopefully someone with the actual Victory service "S" stamp info will expound further as to it's validity.)

I have several Victory examples with the "S" stamped on the yoke, rear cylinder face, and grip frame, but not all of my Victory examples have the "S" stamped on them.

I have posted pics of an example with the "S" stamp on it's yoke, rear cylinder face, and both sides of it's lower grip frame. I can't help but feel that one of the "S" stamps on the grip frame is an actual inspector's initial, and the other is the service "S" stamp. On my other examples that have the "S" service stamp on the yoke and rear cylinder face, they also have the "S" on the right side lower grip frame.

HTH,
Dale
Good call, now I see the double S. And I also have an S like yours on the frame under the right grip.
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Old 06-24-2020, 07:44 PM
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Good call, now I see the double S. And I also have an S like yours on the frame under the right grip.
Did you also have an "S" on the yoke flat? A few minutes ago I looked at my Victory examples with the "S" stamps on them. I found a couple examples with an "S" on three parts...Ö.the lower right grip frame, yoke flat, and rear cylinder face.

I also had a couple examples that had the "S" on the grip frame and yoke flat, but not on the rear cylinder face.

Just curious if your example had all 3 places stamped with an "S" or just 2 of the 3?

Dale

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Old 06-24-2020, 09:06 PM
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It is a doublestamped "S". Most likely an accident when the "S" was stamped.

I have read where the "S" is found on Victory examples indicates the part required additional "SERVICE" before passing inspection at the factory. (Hopefully someone with the actual Victory service "S" stamp info will expound further as to it's validity.)
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Good call, now I see the double S. And I also have an S like yours on the frame under the right grip.

As I said before, the service dept. S is indeed the only legitimate candidate for a letter at that location, but if you guys can "see" a double-struck S comparing it to the standard singleton, you've already had more whiskey than I've had this fine afternoon

The S stamp on any parts, however many, indicates the gun did not pass final inspection and was returned for a detour through the service dept. before shipping, for attention to those parts. So it does not indicate any later return. A lot of Victorys have various S's on different parts, a result of the fast expansion of the workforce in 1942 with inexperienced newbies.

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Old 06-25-2020, 08:51 AM
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As I said before, the service dept. S is indeed the only legitimate candidate for a letter at that location, but if you guys can "see" a double-struck S comparing it to the standard singleton, you've already had more whiskey than I've had this fine afternoon

The S stamp on any parts, however many, indicates the gun did not pass final inspection and was returned for a detour through the service dept. before shipping, for attention to those parts. So it does not indicate any later return. A lot of Victorys have various S's on different parts, a result of the fast expansion of the workforce in 1942 with inexperienced newbies.

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I've posted a photo with one of the S's highlighted in red and making the other S, underneath the red one I believe, apparent. Once you look at that look again at the original, non-highlighted photo and I believe I can see the top curve of the upper S, closest to the chamber, very lightly struck. After looking at the crane and yoke in better light I believe what I thought was a C is in fact a poorly struck S (you can just see the beginning of a second curve) on the one that is far away from the assembly number (crane?). On the other, which is partially overstamped by the matching assembly number (yoke?) is not really identifiable other than there is one curve and it looks like a deliberate stamp. The only other S is at the bottom of the frame under the right grip.
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Old 06-27-2020, 09:30 AM
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I picked up this Victory, yesterday , at a LGS.
4", .38 Special, parkerized, 5 screw,grooved trigger, lanyard loop, no US Property or flaming bomb markings, SN V252043. It has a little muzzle wear on the park, grips are dark with no visible markings.
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Old 06-27-2020, 10:25 AM
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Default V373779

Mine was shipped August, 43. No letter. It is marked US Property GHD, no S markings, stocks numbered to gun. Looks quite used but no pitting and the cylinders/bore virtually mint. Nothing else remarkable except the beautiful correct shoulder holster that came with it. Looks every bit its age but the leather has been taken care of, no cracks, perfect. Marked USN, Boyt,43.

I'm curious if the any of the revolvers marked as mine went to the Navy even though no Navy markings?

The trigger on this revolver is grooved.
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Old 06-27-2020, 11:32 AM
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Mine was shipped August, 43. No letter. It is marked US Property GHD, no S markings, stocks numbered to gun......
I'm curious if the any of the revolvers marked as mine went to the Navy even though no Navy markings?
....
Actually, most guns marked U.S. PROPERTY still went to the Navy. That stamping replaced US NAVY after the Army Supply Program took over the contracts, but that didnít change their primary military use by the Navy.

However, the Navy generally did not issue these as personal sidearms, only for duty, like dockside guards, or pilots before they took off for a mission, to be turned back in afterwards. So while itís possible, it is unlikely that the gun and holster spent the war together.
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Old 06-27-2020, 11:39 AM
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Thanks for the info. No, I wasn't that delusional to think they had been mated for life. Maybe since the previous owner found the holster. So, part of their life. ))) I haven't seen a letter for a Victory. Will the letter reflect shipment to a USN organization?

Tnx
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Old 06-27-2020, 01:13 PM
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I haven't seen a letter for a Victory. Will the letter reflect shipment to a USN organization?
Yes, usually a Navy Yard. Oakland comes up a lot, maybe reflecting the fact that US Navy and Marines, especially aviation, were much more engaged in the Pacific than the European theater. Maybe Charlie can tell us how many different Navy Yards are actually on record in the database.
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Old 06-27-2020, 05:44 PM
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Maybe Charlie can tell us how many different Navy Yards are actually on record in the database.
Absalom:

From the Victory Model Database I can tell you that the great bulk of Navy-shipped Victories were sent from the factory to either the Naval Supply Depot at Oakland, CA or the Naval Supply Depot at Norfolk, VA.

A relative handful of Navy guns went to other destinations from the factory. These include the Springfield Armory, the Navy Yard at Mare Island, CA, and the Puget Sound Navy Yard.

A fair number went to Rosslyn, VA but the current thinking is that those guns were actually intended for the OSS and not the Navy. Thus, I don't consider them to be Navy guns in the strict sense.

The pre-Victory guns that were intended for and marked for the U.S.N.C.P.C. were shipped in 1941 to the Washington Navy Yard.

All of the aforementioned guns were four inch barreled revolvers. There was a Navy shipment of 42 two inch barreled Victories delivered to the Washington Navy Yard in late 1942.

So there you have it. This is the kind of information that the Database can reveal, thanks to the data contributions of many collectors and Members here.
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Old 06-27-2020, 09:13 PM
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Thanks all. I appreciate it.
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Old 06-28-2020, 02:08 PM
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Thanks, Charlie! Oakland must have served as a West Coast distribution center as there were substantial Navy bases along the SoCal coast. The L.A./San Diego area actually had the largest concentration of Navy installations.
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Old 06-28-2020, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0132 View Post
Thanks for the info. No, I wasn't that delusional to think they had been mated for life. Maybe since the previous owner found the holster. So, part of their life. ))) I haven't seen a letter for a Victory. Will the letter reflect shipment to a USN organization?

Tnx
I think that has been explained. A very high percentage of S&W .38 Special revolvers which were used by the U.S. Military during WWII went to the Navy, most of them used to arm flight crews. Early ones were purchased from S&W under a Navy Contract, while later ones were procured through Army contracts. All (with the exception of OSS guns shipped to the Navy at Rosslyn VA) will have topstrap property stampings, U. S. NAVY, UNITED STATES PROPERTY, and last, U. S. PROPERTY. Smaller numbers went to the U. S. Maritime Commission (Merchant Marine) and the Defense Supplies Corporation (DSC). Those were not property stamped. A historical letter will not tell you much more than the date of shipment and first destination, i.e., a Navy supply depot. DSC guns will usually letter as shipping to some defense contractor or domestic law enforcement agency.

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Old 07-06-2020, 10:16 PM
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Info for data base: An upcoming CA auction has : V220470 BSR 38S&W 5 in. Bbl, frame Stamped "Osterreich Polizei " and Pre-Victory BSR #896544, 5 in Bbl., Vega import stamped. Ed.
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Old 07-06-2020, 11:53 PM
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Good. Thanks, Ed.

On the 896544 there appear to be unit markings at the top of the back strap. Can you tell what they are?
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Old 07-07-2020, 03:30 PM
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Charlie, I've looked at the backstop of 896544 but I don't see anything that could be a marking of some kind. There is a marking on the top of the backstap of V220470 that appears to be 3 small numbers followed by 2 letters. probably a rack or unit mark. Ed

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Old 07-07-2020, 06:36 PM
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Yes, Ed. I got the two mixed up. Sorry.

It appears that V220470 has unit markings on the top of the back strap. I see that the auction house has now mentioned those markings in the description. They are believed to read 16 BN 43.

Thanks.
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Old 07-07-2020, 08:54 PM
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DWalt, I gather what you said above, if the top strap has no markings it was sent to the OSS? I "think", without looking, that one of mine does not have any markings on the top strap.
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Old 07-09-2020, 05:10 PM
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In my opinion, the "16BN43" would be a marking of the Brits, prior to the gun have been transferred to the post WW2 Austrian Police, as it is similar to other markings occasionally seen on BSRs, as applied by unit armorers during the guns service with the Brits. "16BN" would have been the unit and "43" would be the unit inventory, or rack, number. An inquery to the Imperial War Museum in London will probably get a reply that identifies the 16BN . Ed
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