I've got a BSR coming. Do you want that data for a Victory data base?

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

With the 5" barrel, it is almost guaranteed to be a British Service Model originally (and maybe still) in .38 S&W. The serial places it in late summer (maybe Aug/Sept) 1944.

It is a gun that was issued to German police by occupation authorities. My interpretation is not authoritatve, but I am reasonably certain the frame stamping abbreviates for:

POLIZEI BREMEN
Land und Stadt

Bremen in Northern Germany is a city-state, thus the second line, although it seems a bit superfluous.

As I explained above, those of us here who are currently responding to most of the questions in this thread are not the keepers of the database.

But a lot of people use this thread as a resource on Victorys, so any guns you post here with sufficient information will be preserved for others to use as more data points.

Yes, the keepers of the Victory Model Database are right here. We haven't gone anywhere. We don't post a lot because there are other knowledgeable collectors here who can answer most routine Victory questions. However, we record every complete serial number and other data points for the Database. (Partial serials are useless for our study.) We continue to be grateful to those collectors who willingly share this information for the benefit of all.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Okay. I've got two Lend Lease revolvers coming. Once in my hands so I can study them I'll post in this thread.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

The gun in post 1653, the right side of the barrel is marked 38 S&W CTG. There are no British or commonwealth proof marking. The top strap is marked UNITED STATES PROPERTY. Steve

All that fits perfectly with what I said. It was a lend-lease gun (thus the property stamp) that went to Britain. They were chambered in .38 S&W, which was the British army's standard caliber (although they used different labels, like .38-200 or .380/200). Since it then went to Germany, there would be no British proofs, since all those are post-war and were only required if the gun was surplussed out for commercial sale in Britain. Since Bremen was an American-occupied enclave in the otherwise British-occupied North of Germany, the gun must have made its way back to the US without going through Britain again.

Hi I would like to enter my 38 Smith and Wesson into the data base if its good enough. Barrel is 5"
Serial number v150360. Im not sure of the markings so I will just post the pics.

You have a, as far as I can tell, all-original British Service version of the Victory model which shipped in late 1942 and ended up in Canadian service. Besides the standard factory markings and the acceptance and property marks for lend-lease, I see the Canadian arrow in a C on the left frame. Nice specimen.

I have a question on a .22 conversion done in Britain, probably in Birmingham. It stated life as a BSR V350512. It has BNP proofs usual British reblue. Bbl is 6" w/ adjustable rear and large patrige- ish front. side of bbl reads .22LR .610". 8 tons per l_] ". cylinder is nicely sleeved. It wears snazzy unbordered checkered walnut stocks with a 5 point crown silver medallion. I hoped the stocks would identify who did the job. another guy at the local club show has one just like it.

I recently acquired another Victory Model; this one is, I believe, New Zealand marked N^Z 7562 on the rear with Serial #126669 on all the usual places. Was this from 1941 or 1942?

It's originally from mid-1943, but I really have no experience with any of the .22 conversions. You might want to start a separate thread for this with a precise title so more people notice it, as I think some of these have been discussed here before.

Yes, it's New Zealand, originally shipped likely Sept./Oct. 1942. I assume there is a V in front. I can't see any of those pictures unfortunately.

Yes, V126669, with W.B. and a flaming bomb on the butt.

I inherited two from my Dad.

#V613506 Original grips. Matching barrel and cylinder. I added a lanyard ring and stud. 4" .38 S.&W. Special CTG
"(Fb) U S. PROPERTY GHD" "P" on left side of frame near top of cylinder window and on the back of the cylinder.






















#V304769. Matching barrel and cylinder. I replaced grips (it had a set of Pachmyers) and lanyard ring. 4"
"(Fb) U. S. PROPERTY G.H.D." ..... periods are more visible on this one.

Nice ones. Both standard military-destined US versions, probably shipped a little over a year apart, the V304 in late spring 1943 and the V614 in summer 1944; I have a V604 that shipped in early August. The finish looks original and in good shape on both.

Both work fine. I have fired them within the last few years. Neither will win any awards.
I guess index card groups at living room distances is what they were made for.

For years, Dad kept one by his chair in the living room and the other under the bed!!

V613506 probably shipped in June 1944

V304769 probably shipped in June-July 1944


Based on nearby SNs on my list.

Didn't you mean 1943 for the 304?

Do we know why the '69' is separated and smaller than the '3047'?

Lunchbreak? Another guy with a different set of dies took over because the first one got sick?

But seriously, as you can see from the irregular non-linear pattern of the numbers in the other locations too, these weren't fixed roll stampings, but digits individually applied with hand tools. So we won't ever know why, but it's nothing unusual.

Fair enough ...

Yes - 1943 it is.

I have an Australian BSR to add to database but it may be there already, this gun was featured in C. Pate's U.S. Handguns of WWII pp 109, 111. V141756 has all the mark shown plus "United States Property" on top strap. The lettering visible under sideplate reads Rebored in Australia (p111). This is also stamped on bottom of right stock. Left stock is stamped Liberty Arms. Cyl is bored for 38spl, I believe finish is original. Very tight gun.

Interesting specimen. I have a couple of observations after looking at the pictures in Pate.

First, did you notice he gives two years for it, 1941 and 1942? Given the serial, the 1941 is likely a typo.

It's unusual to see one of these converted, especially in Australia. I had looked at the picture before, but could not figure out the stuff under the logo. Never seen one like this before.

You say you think the finish is original. To me, even in the black-and-white picture, it looks like a classic Lithgow refinish surface, which is noticably duller than a standard Victory finish; I've also not encountered an FTR-marked gun so far that was not re-parkerized.

Have you checked the right stock panel for a serial number? The Australians got quite a few pre-Victorys with that type of stocks, pre-war small service style, although this gun is about a year too late to have had those originally. But the Australians seem to have switched stocks around a lot. Mine has stocks from a gun that shipped a few months later.

Any chance you could post a well-lit picture in natural light?

I fired a number of these Victory Model .38's while in the USAF, and those I shot were capable of as good accuracy as any commercial M&P equivalent. Frankly, I sometimes fired tighter groups from 25 yards from the two-handed sitting position than I could shoot from our worn .30 M-2 carbines.


I have never had vast affection for the little carbine and was overjoyed to see it replaced with the AR -15/M-16.

Yes, this one is already in the VM Database, but thank you for posting it anyway.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Here's one more, nothing special about it as far as I know, SN V331524, five inch 38 S&W. Has flaming bomb, US Property, G.H.D. on top of receiver and no British or other stamps. SN matching in the usual places including the right stock panel. Pawn shop buy today so no telling where its been.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

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	Victory 5 inch 38 S&W.jpg (150.3 KB, 30 views)
	S&W Victory 5 inch .jpg (90.1 KB, 32 views)
	S&W Victory 38 S&W.jpg (115.2 KB, 31 views)

Any BSR which hasn't been messed with or proof stamped is sort of special, and that one appears original. SN V331524 would put its probable shipment ca. mid-1943. Have the chambers been bored for .38 Special?

I would beg to disagree with you "... nothing special about it...."

5" -- bonus

no proof marks -- bonus

with luck the answer to DWalt's question "... chambers been bored to .38 Special?" is "no." -- bonus

Win, win, win.

I would consider it very special.

Cheers,

Bob

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

Ab, silver medallion stocks ser no. not readable . All lettering and edges are super sharp but trigger and hammer have polishing marks.

It MAY just be the lighting, but the hammer, trigger, and ejector rod/knob appear to have the same finish as the rest of the gun, which would support my impression, especially from the third photo, that this is not the original finish.

That fits. One of the characteristics of the Lithgow refinish is that it is VERY thin and seems to have involved no buffing, and leaves the original stampings looking pristine, which is why they are frequently taken for original. See my example attached.

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IMG_3752.jpg (66.2 KB, 33 views)

Given all the conversions to 38 Special I should have mentioned in the original post that this one is still 38 S&W; a 38 Special will not chamber.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Hi there, I just purchased what I'm pretty sure is a Victory model. Serial #V361352, which is stamped on the bottom of the barrel and the butt, as well as on the cylinder face. Only other stamped markings are the number 6895 on the frame and the same # on the crane. There is a small S stamped on the crane and on the cylinder face. Under the stocks on the left side of the grip frame near the butt are small stamps of what looks like an X and a B. On the other side is a 4 and an 8 and another S.

It looks to be in pretty good shape, in need of a good cleaning but the finish is 85-90% and timing and bore seem to be in good shape.

I've read that early Victory models shipped with checkered grips, can that be confirmed are those the original stocks (no serial # on the stocks)?

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	IMAG0596.jpg (157.8 KB, 28 views)
	IMAG0597.jpg (159.0 KB, 21 views)
	IMAG0600.jpg (181.4 KB, 16 views)
	IMAG0601.jpg (148.9 KB, 18 views)

Unfortunately I have to disappoint you, but those are much later post-war target stocks; in fact, they're so late after the war (definitely post-1968) that I can't tell you anything about them. Since the K-frame remained dimensionally the same, any modern stocks will fit the Victory.

The checkered stocks that shipped on early pre-Victorys up to late 1941 were of the small pre-war service style, see attached picture. Your gun is also not early; that serial would have shipped in later 1943. It has been re-blued, too, by the way.

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Capture.jpg (77.0 KB, 28 views)

Not disappointed at all, thank you for the information. I'd ideally like to replace the stocks with the smaller service style. Know of any good sources?

If you don't have many opportunities to dig through boxes at gun shows, look on online sites like Gunbroker and ebay. The small pre-war service stocks with medallion can be a bit pricey. Originally your gun would have had the less attractive, but much easier obtained smooth Victory stocks as seen in the photos in post #1680 above.

Greetings all!

I've been reading through as many posts as I can and enjoying the history of this firearm!

My wife just received 3 from her father, that he inherited from his father. The story goes, his father served as a MP in Europe and Germany, specifically guarding railroad stations and trains. On the return trip to USA, they were told to dump the pistols overboard (yes, literally into the sea). His father asked a couple guys if he could have theirs and stowed them all in his bag. He wasn't searched and left with all three.

All three are DSC, no special markings on any. They have the usual 4" barrel and are in .38 special.

Serial Numbers are:
V96053
V117044
V123274

Luckily they were treated well and all are in great condition.

Thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread, its been fun to read through!

Matt

You say they are DSCs - meaning that there are no property stampings on the topstrap (UNITED STATES PROPERTY or possibly U. S. NAVY). Is that the case? That would be unusual if it's known that they saw any sort of military service. Might be worth getting letters on them.

BTW regarding likely shipping dates:

V96053 9/1942
V117044 9/1942
V123274 11/1942

Can you post some pix?

Thank you for the dates! That's great information!

Correct, there are no markings on the top strap, the only extra marking is the ordnance marking on the bottom (the bomb), which from what I've gathered is on basically everyone? Otherwise they are void of any other markings. All the grips are correct as well.

I will try to take photos (once I figure out how to work that whole thing )

We may have to get a letter on them!

If the guy collected the others from people in his outfit, meaning the entire unit or whatever crew this was carried unmarked DSC (or Maritime Commisssion?) revolvers, there is likely something about the guy's story that got lost in the re-telling. Victorys were not standard issue to MP's at any time. It would certainly be interesting to letter at least one of the three guns to see where it went originally.

894492 letters as a 5" BSR shipped 7/2/42 to Hartford. it has crown over BNP proofs, "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" top strap, scepters w/k (1959) sale date, perfect case colors , usual refinish, and silver medallion stocks numbered 702827. It has unproofed 2 1/8" bbl with ramp front sight, unusually shaped, serial is hand stamped. Butt is marked WB and ord bomb. Still has lanyard, excellent function.

BSR S/N 975939 Parkerized shipped 4/42 Barrel is now 3.5".

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

Victory s/n V650093. 5" barrel, .38 S&W ctg. refinished including the swivel. Hammer and trigger chromed. "P" proofs on cylinder and frame. Interesting markings on the back strap.

free photo upload

upload a gif

I'm guessing this one shipped in mid 1944; prob Aug/Sep.

I was right. British Service Model .38/200 V650093 shipped in August 1944.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

HE = Hessen
M = Municipal

This stamping has appeared here before. It indicates a German police gun from the US-occupied state of Hessen (which in English for reasons unexplained is often rendered as Hesse, where the Hessians of Revolutionary War fame hailed from. In German, one Hessian is actually a Hesse ).

Most of the HE-marked Victorys I've come across so far have been US versions (4"/.38 Spl.). But interestingly, just like in the other two US-occupied states with known occupation-authority markings, Württemberg-Baden (WB plus other stuff on the backstrap) and Bayern (Bavaria Rural (or) Municipal Police on the left frame), both US Victorys and BSR's seem to have been issued in Hessen.

I guess that makes sense. The "P" proof is supposedly for an Army supply contract. I guess the backstrap tells where the gun was needed after the war.

And my German ancestor from the paternal side came from Hessen in the 18th century. Karma I guess.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

By that date, all of them got the P proofs, BSR's, DSC guns, and military-shipped ones.

"This stamping has appeared here before. It indicates a German police gun from the US-occupied state of Hessen (which in English for reasons unexplained is often rendered as Hesse, where the Hessians of Revolutionary War fame hailed from. In German, one Hessian is actually a Hesse )."

It's a little more complicated than that. The current state of Hessen (Greater Hessen) did not come into existence until just after WWII, and was formed by a consolidation of four other old Hesse-states (Hesse-Kassel, Hesse-Darmstadt, Hesse-Rheinfels, and Hesse-Marburg). Those were created by the subdivision of an earlier Hessen state under the Holy Roman Empire in the 16th Century. Hesse-Kassel is where the well-known Hessian mercenaries of the American Revolutionary War came from. But it is correct the German state of Hessen is the one where the Victories were used by the German police.

Well, it's actually even more complicated than that. By the time the occupation authorities created Gross-Hessen (Greater Hessen) in 1945, the states you listed had been subject to territorial changes and modern Hessen, as it has been simply called since 1946, was created out of the former Grand Duchy of Hessen (from 1918 to 1934 a so-called People's State minus the Duke) and two Prussian provinces, Kurhessen and Nassau.

But most important for our purposes, all those Hessens back to the original County of Hessen in the HRE had an N at the end .

I actually have a snip from a German auction site of a HE-M marked Victory, in which the description says that the right side has the Hessian coat-of-arms stamped on it. That I would have liked to see, but unfortunately the only photo shows the wrong side. The auction posting interestingly also guesses the city of Mainz for the M in the stamping, not likely since Mainz, although before the war part of the Grand Duchy, was French-occupied after WW II, became the capital of the new state of Rheinland-Palz, and was not part of US-occupied Hessen.

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	HESSEN Wappen.jpg (125.8 KB, 16 views)
	HE-M Victory Hermann Historica.jpg (27.3 KB, 22 views)

Picked up V16109 today. No official markings though someone scratched their name on the left side and USA on the butt to the left of where the lanyard should be. All numbers match including the stocks.

Now I just need a letter and a lanyard. Then a picture next to my 228 as Past & Present Naval Aviator sidearms.

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	FullSizeRender 10.jpg (142.3 KB, 53 views)
	SW Victory.jpg (42.8 KB, 26 views)