A few good pictures would help significantly in providing better information.

Here is my victory 38spl

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God save the SOUTH

Here are some pictures of the pistol. Again, I appreciate any insight.

[ATTACH]Mom's pistol.jpg

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Another one for the database. Picked up this Victory from a friend - Serial# V 342643, 4" barrel, .38Spl, U.S. Property GHD on top strap. In great shape, original with matching numbered grips.

Duly noted in the Database, AP. Thank you.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Hello Charlie:

Thanks for the additional photos you posted on your V231531. From the Victory Model Database I can estimate for you that your revolver likely shipped from the factory in the January-February 1943 time frame. It was a Lend Lease program gun.

From the pics it appears that your revolver's original 5" barrel has been cut down to a 4 incher. The stocks have been replaced. Your revolver was originally chambered for the .38 S&W (.38-200) cartridge. Many of those guns were modified post-war by dealers to accept .38 Special cartridges. I can't tell from the pics if that is the case with your example.

I hope that information is helpful to you.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Nice looking Victory, sw44spl. Thanks for providing the data. It is now in the Database.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Where does one apply for the tracking letter from S&W?

You should be aware the cost of a letter is $100, and is unlikely to provide much information beyond the exact shipping date. It will not provide any information whatsoever about what happened to it after shipment from S&W. Being modified, probably very significantly, your Victory has no collectible value.

Regarding the SN V231531, the closest SN I have listed to it is V238853 which shipped on 2/26/43. S&W was making around 1000 per day at that time.

I usually encourage lettering every historic S&W, but feel obligated to agree with DWalt in this case, especially since your wording indicates that you may have incorrect expectations.

It’s not a “tracking” letter. The historian can only tell you when and where S&W shipped it, and ALL these Lend-Lease guns shipped to the same Army Ordnance depot; where they went after that is beyond the letter.

I’ve lettered a gun like that anyway, wanting a letter sample for this model. You may still want to if you can afford it and support the S&W Historical Foundation with your money.

But be aware what you will get

Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Home Page - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come

Hey everyone new just picked up a 4 inch barrel 38 special. us property ghd with flaming bomb stamped victory sn v474228. Also has a Bavaria police stamp. Haven’t had much luck finding a sn range list. Any lone have any info on this neat ole girl

I read somewhere that at the end of the war, some soldiers would bring back “trophies”, and would oftener have guns nickel plated in France before their return.

I just bought a Victory today. S/N V430415. It too is nickel plated. I will restore it to its original finish.

Cheers!

Thanks for keeping up the data base. What a great resource. I have recently acquired the following:
S&W .38 Special CTG Victory Model Serial No. V67232. Number matching on inside right stock, under barrel, and on cylinder.
Right side of barrel 38 S&W Special CTG
Finish: Black brushed
Patent dates on top of barrel
On right side of grip frame at the butt: "T", "J", "A", "6", A dot, and a larger "S".
On the left side of the grip frame at the butt: "P", and "P"
Smooth backstrap. Grooved trigger.
On the yoke: 11562 and "S" with 11562 and "P" on the frame next to the yoke.
The revolver is tight and shows minor holster wear marks. The bore seems perfect and it has every sign of being carried more far more than being used.
No markings of backstrap or sideplate (beyond S&W Trademark), and no markins on left side.
Ordnance bonb mark on butt across from serial number..

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That SN would probably have been shipped around December 1943. The Bavarian stamp is interesting, but I'm not much of an expert on the postwar German civil police guns.

I wonder how this post slipped through without anyone responding last month. Must have been a busy time.

Your gun (if you’re still around) shipped in very late 1943 originally, to a US military destination. After the war, it was issued in 1946 to German police in occupied Bavaria by US authorities and carried until the early 1950s, then sold as surplus.

I think the plating in France was indeed mostly done to captured German pistols. These Victorys were more likely nickeled after being sold as surplus here in the US. I don’t think military authorities would have taken too kindly to soldiers plating current-issued US property marked revolvers

I just picked up this Victory. Well, almost. Colorado is running at 7 days for a background check so I paid and left it, hence the quick pics.

Its marked US Navy on the topstrap.

The nice diamond magnas are a plus. I’ll swap them out when it I get it home.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Nice acquisition. I envy you. I'm looking for one like that. I notice the butt swivel hole is plugged - after you get it could you post some information about that. For example, what material did someone use to plug the hole with? Thanks, great gun.

Nice condition for an early five-digit Navy gun; must have gone to some cushy staff job and not been dragged through too many saltwater bilges

And not a bad price even without the stocks and swivel. Both easily remedied. Shipped in fall 1942.

There have been quite a few request for information here. Does anyone have the number of Victories are in the data base to date? Very interesting information.

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Kevin in Oregon

I'll throw my two into the mix.

V201083 38 Special, four inch, no obvious military markings, probably a DSC gun. Parked, smooth walnut grips. My guess is 1942 era.

V579739 British, 38 S&W, five inch. Unmolested but checked grips that probably aren't original. My guess is 1944 time frame.

I don't have the Database open at the moment to give you an exact number, but last time I looked it was in the thousands. This has been a multi-year, long term ongoing study.

Thanks again to all of the many collectors and shooters who have generously provided their data, on a confidential basis, for the betterment of the Database and, ultimately, for the benefit of all admirers of the pre-Victory and Victory guns.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Victory for the dB. Serial is V288880. All matching, including grips/under bbl/cyl face. grooved trigger; hammer/trigger case hardened. 5" bbl marked 38 S&W Ctg. Left side is stamped with 38 Special. Cylinder has been bored for 38 SPC (done well, doesn't split case necks/fired case looks like a mini 38-40!). Top Strap has bomb/is marked US Property GHD. W on the grip frame under grips. No Brit proof marks/no import marks. Prob 85%++, considering a war gun.

Info is appreicated. Thanx

Also, is the dB accessible/searchable? I looked for it, and have been unable to find it.

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You have a standard Lend-Lease British Service model from mid-1943.

The absence of British post-war commercial proofs indicates that it somehow made its way out of British or other Commonwealth service and back here through channels other than being regularly surplused out in Britain.

The CAL .38 SPECIAL marking on the left frame is not seen often on converted guns, and assumed to be the peculiarity of one particular converter, although we don't know who. It does indicate that however your gun got back here, it entered the commercial surplus trade at some point.

Most of these came back before 1968, so no import marks are usually found.

Is this how I post a question about my Victory model? If so I would like any information on serial number V467813. The back strap is stamped B.P.D. 201-V.

Thanks

Welcome to the Forum.

I would do a new post in the section, 1896-1961.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

The gun is from very late 1943.

A number of large police departments got some Victorys during the war, but few marked them.

Boston PD is known to have used the B.P.D. marking on the backstrap of their issue revolvers in general, so that could be a suspect. As Muley suggests, a separate thread with good photos of the marking might get someone to recognize the style of marking.

Thanx Ab! basically as I expected. fired cases look interesting (think mini-38-40). But they aren't splitting the case mouth, so I am ok.

For the database: An upcoming Kansas gun auction has the following Victory Models (1) V6583 "USN' 4 in. 38Spl (2) V59864 4 in 38 Spl, & (3) V623007 4 in, 38 Spl. Ed.

V63138, which is fairly close to yours, shipped to the USN in Oakland 7/15/42. You got yourself a nice example.

What is a Zoomie doing with a Navy revolver? Give it back.

Hey all! Picked up a Smith and Wesson Pre-Victory a few months ago and just wanted to submit it to the database. Ser. #987592. Shipped to Hyde Windlass Co. Bath, Maine on May 18th, 1942. Imgur link included with pictures of it with letter. Hope someone finds this interesting. Smith and Wesson Pre Victory - Album on Imgur

Thanks for posting this, and the excellent photos.

That is a nice one, and in excellent shape. Some holster wear along the sides of the muzzle and a few scratches show that it was carried a bit, probably by a guard, but otherwise it seems to have survived quite comfortably.

Not a problem! Thought I would make an account and post it since someone is trying to keep the records of these alive and intact. Thanks for the compliments on it. I luckily got the gun for around $300 about 3 months ago.

Hello Inforno:

I agree with Absalom. That is an excellent letter for an excellent pre-Victory.

Thank you for providing the information for the Victory Model Database.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Do certain factories or police departments make a S&W Victory (or Pre victory) more or less collectable? Since my gun was issued to the factory that produced the most destroyers for the USN, it must have been big but I am not sure if it makes it more or less desirable to certain groups who might collect these. I know guns marked USN can bring more of a premium when it comes to firearms.

I have a odd Victory Model s/n V 361784, 38 Special, 4"barrel, lanyard ring. the same number is on the butt, barrel and cylinder. The cylinder also has a letter S on it. Parkerized finish NO military markings anywhere, just the usual S&W factory markings.

What is odd about it? What you describe seems to be a typical Victory model which likely shipped around March 1943. Without a property stamp on the topstrap it would probably be what's termed a Defense Supplies Corporation (DSC) Victory which was destined for stateside use by either civilian law enforcement or defense plant guards. However there are other more remote possibilities. You would need to order a historical letter ($100) to find out where it was shipped.

I just picked a Victory. 4" barrel, S/N: V152560. It has the U.S. NAVY marking on the left side of the top strap. No other proof or inspection marks that I see. It has some surface rust from improper storage in a leather holster. I think it will clean up ok. Bore and chambers are minty. It has the original grips, but is missing the butt swivel. Anyone has a good source for the swivel besides ebay?

Have # V54764 with lanyard ring, D>D FTR M/55 stamps.
United States Property (no GHD) has letters WE(?)
on the flat of the butt on opposite side of lanyard ring
along with a small "p" and ordinance bomb,
matching numbers, smooth wood grips, in 38 S&W.

VEGA SAC CA. import mark

Any info or opinions are welcome and appreciated

You can get one from Numrich:

Search | Numrich Gun Parts

You have a mid-1942 Lend-Lease Victory that was refurbished in 1955 in Australia. Vega Arms in Sacramento imported these in the late 1980s.

Instead of the later GHD, it still has Waldemar Broberg‘s WB on the butt. The P and bomb are standard US ordnance marks.

The FTR (Factory Thorough Repair) was done at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory in New South Wales, which functions as a sort of government arsenal for the Australian military. MA is their code. D^D stands for Defence Dept. The gun should have received a refinish at Lithgow; it‘s duller and usually darker than the original Victory finish.

I recently purchased this 5” 38 S&W, BSR / “pre-victory” mostly because it is a low serial number 685135, numbers match butt, cylinder, barrel, looks to have some wear before it was refinished.

Left side: Import mark - VEGA SAC CA

Bottom near trigger guard: Broad arrow

Right side:
D^D
FTR \ MA55
M
30
L

Right grip on bottom: “F”

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FTR = “Factory Thorough Repair”
MA55 = “Munitions Australia” Lithgow arms factory \ 1955
L = Lithgow inspection mark

The M and 30 Pate says it means percent, “believed to indicate a sampling method wherein a sample of some percent of a lot is given a detailed inspection in order to determine the acceptability of the entire lot” Page 111, similar marks in the photo examples. I am not sure exactly what he means by this, 30% of the lot have had a detailed inspection?

——-

I thought it was interesting because the early BSRs were 4 and 6 inches. I would think if it was a replacement barrel that it would have British, South African, or Canadian markings. Maybe it was just held back by Smith & Wesson and was part of the 8,000 Australian order on 4/1/1941?

The MA most likely stands for Mach Arms. And as far as the explanations of the other Australian stamps go, Pate's explanation on pg. 111 seems rather fanciful, and makes no sense to me. He doesn't source it either. Following Enfield's pattern, a simple inspector's code below the crown and a Lithgow L would be my guess.

If you look at the comparison below, there are also differences in the stamping pattern which I can't explain.



According to Pate's list, the first large contract for 5" barreled BSRs started in 10/1940, a bit late for your serial. Before that there was supposedly a contract for 65,000 5" M&Ps in .38 Special only. But Pate got the numbers from Skennerton, who's been shown to be wildly off on US revolver shipments before. It fits the general ballpark.

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Thanks! I was getting “Munitions Australia” from Pate on page 110.

I am questioning the 65,000 5” 38 Specials on 5/28/1940 to Britain.

I know there were 38 Specials being shipped, and some were 5 inch (I have one), but I don’t think they were all 5 inches, or all, if any, shipped to Britain. Maybe the 65,000 is the total number of 38 specials shipped during the period in between the production of BSRs, those were the civilian ones and the ones for the USNCPC. 65,000 is just too large a number for there not to be a bunch of examples floating around (in my opinion).

I did too. And then I got the “Mach Arms” from the curator at the Lithgow Factory Museum in an e-mail. It was Lithgow’s telex code. Better source

The actual ammunition factories in Australia (Lithgow made primarily guns, not ammo) all had an M code for Munitions Something. The oldest, at Footscray, was MF for Munitions Footscray. So I think way back somebody was trying to explain the MA on Lithgow guns and since it wasn’t ML they got creative fishing for another possible explanation. And then everybody in the literature copied that; before the internet, actually checking would have been too much work

And as for the large number, whenever I check Pate’s footnotes and see Skennerton as the source, I remember the supposedly 49,764 Colt Official Police 38/200 for the BPC, which I discovered upon having the Colt archivist check the ledgers, to have been only 18,252.

Thanks for the additional information.

I did find it a little odd that 49,764 Official Police 38/200 revolvers were listed by Pate, but in his book they hardly even get a mention. I know information isn’t always available, but for that large of a number I would have expected there to be more than just a mention of them.

I don’t suppose you have any more information about the Official Police 38/200’s? I am mostly wondering if it’s known how many were shipped to the different commonwealth countries. I have seen a couple with Australian markings and was curious if it’s know how many were sent there.

I don’t. So far I haven’t managed to find a good one, unmodified, for a decent price. This isn’t the right place for discussing this further, but some have been shown here; you might do a forum search. I also know there have been threads over on the Colt Forum about them over the years. Consider joining and searching there.

Recently acquired another Victory Model - on G.B. as usual.
Serial Number V 352776. Marked on butt, cylinder, and bottom of barrel and behind ejector star.

Right side of barrel: 38 S&W SPECIAL Ctg

Finish is brushed (sandblaster) black - Probably refinished.

Detail markings on right side of grip frame: "S", "ES", "S", "4".

Detail markings on left side of grip frame: "X", "6".

Backstrap smooth, trigger grooved.

Left Top Strap Marked (shallow letters): U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D

Yoke and yoke frame: "6412" Bore excellent.

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Mid-1943, maybe July.

The artificial light in the photos isn’t ideal, but I see no sign of a refinish. Surface texture and appearance, including the sharpness of the stampings, would make me consider this the original finish with reasonable certainty.

Thanks very much. I appreciate the input and the knowledge. Its just the finish looks so good for its age. I have read of the "Black Magic" and even the Carbonia finishes being kind of thin also. Again, thanks for your insight, I am learning more all the time on this forum.

If the gun ended up on some stateside Navy base, it may not have seen much use and abuse or even just sat in some officer's desk drawer.

Victory refinishes tend to be fairly easy to spot. The Sandblast Black Magic actually looks distinctly different from a regular parkerizing-type phosphate finish, which post-war refinishes usually are; once you've looked at enough, you can tell most of the time. In addition, the property stamping on the topstrap is pretty shallow and delicate, so a very careful and thin no-buffing refinish would be required. The Australians figured out how to do it in the 1950s, but they only refinished British Service versions, and the result looks nothing like the original finish.