Just received a very nice S&W Model 1905, 4th CHange M&P and a sure enough pre-victory model.

Serial No, 999245, on butt, cylinder, bottom of barrel, back of ejector star, and backside of right hand stock. (That's 755 revolvers prior to V1)

On yoke - 42551 and an "S"

On Yoke frame - 42551 and small "43"

Barrel marked S&W 38 Special Ctg

Stocks are smooth walnut with correct serial number inside right stock.

On the left grip frame at bottom - "1", "DBN" and "511" in 3/16" high letters.

On right grip frame "S", very small "4", "F", "G", "3", "." and on inside near top of backstrap two pricked dots ".."

Black very nice finish. I'll not try to guess which finish, but it ifeels kind of smooth and is well worn on the front and backstraps of the grip.

There are no government property markings on the revolver.

Finally is the post-factory (I think) marking on the left frame below the cylinder "US-AC-16528" Charles W. Pate pictures this mark in his great book U.S. Handguns of World War II - The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers. He felt this Defense Supplies Corporation contract revolver had this and others sent to the Ford Motor Co. (Automotive Center Security) by contract.
He shows a picture of a S&W with this same marking and cites having encountered a Colt Commando with the same marking.
Maybe someday someone will come up with some documentaion or proof about this marking. I would sure like to know.

"...999245 was shipped from the factory on July 7, 1942 and delivered to Ford Motor Co., Dearborn, MI. The records indicate this revolver was shipped with a 4 inch barrel, mid-night black finish, butt swivel and smooth walnut square butt grips. This shipment was for 12 units all in the same configuration."

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Hello Grendelbean:

That is a nice pre-Victory. Thanks for posting the data and the pics. When I checked the Victory Model Database, as sometimes happens I found that your revolver was already in the Database. It appears to have been offered for sale by Rock Island Auction Company at its February, 2020 auction as part of Lot #5129.

Your revolver is one of four such pre-Victories in the Database with the enigmatic marking of US-AC-16528 on the left frame below the cylinder window. Two of the guns lettered as having been shipped to Ford Motor Company and one had the specific destination of Dearborn, Michigan which is where Ford had its World HQ. Those 2 guns shipped to Ford on July 7, 1942. My guess is that your revolver was likely part of the same shipment.

The US-AC-16528 marking was applied after leaving the factory. I would agree that it likely is a reference to the DSC contract under which these revolvers were supplied.

The DBN 511 marking is rather odd in its positioning on the grip frame. It is not a factory applied marking. It is likely a property marking, although most property markings are not concealed and, instead, are deliberately positioned to be readily visible. I do not know the precise meaning of the marking. However, my guess is that DBN is shorthand for Dearborn with the 511 the rack number applied to this particular gun.

If you chose to letter the gun I hope that you will circle back here with the details. It helps to improve the Victory Database.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Just picked up this very nice Victory model. Serial number V437601. Manufactured sometime in 1943.

Notice the "O" stamp on the left side near the grip. Any ideas???

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In reference to Grendelbean's post, I have a Colt Commando with the same USAC marking. I never got a very good explanation about the stamp from the Colt Forum.

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Many thanks for the feedback and ID on the gun. Most interesting that it was in an RIA auction so recently. I purchased in on Gun Broker from a dealer in North Dakota.
It is also very satisfying to connect the frame markings DBN 511 with Dearborn and thusly Ford. Thank you very much for that insight and knowledge. I have sent in a request for a Letter of Authentication to SWHF and will report back promptly and fully. Thank you again for the knowledge and better understanding.
This is what makes research and collections so satisfying. Best Regards.

Is that frame def. marked AC? I think the C may be an O. It may be an officer's serial number, perhaps self applied.??

It's probably a C, but looks enough like an imperfect O that I wonder.

It's a pin/stud that has a flattened end instead of a rounded end ya goober!

Dale

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	US PROPERTY GHD Victory V274233 matching butt bomb (14).jpg (72.9 KB, 44 views)
	US PROPERTY GHD topstrap Victory sn V348480 (12).jpg (107.8 KB, 39 views)

Texas:

Since the US-AC-16528 is discussed in Pate’s book and as Charlie mentioned, appears on several guns in the database and also (see above) Colt Commandos, any individual explanation, such as an officer, can pretty much be excluded here.

Yep - it "US-AC-16528" for sure. Thanks for the interest. grendelbean

I feel like such a goober!!!

Just received the SWHF authentication letter on V67232. Details confirmed from the S&W records. It was shipped on September 3, 1942 on a DSC contract order or one reviolver to the Bath Iron Works, Bath, ME.
The finish identified as "Midnight Black Finish."

Grendelbean:

Thanks for the update on your V67232. I have added this important information to the Database. Bath Iron Works built a huge number of ships during WW2 and was, thus, a critical defense industry.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Thanks for the feedback. Bath Iron Works (under the ownership of General Dynamics now) is still cranking out ships for the U.S. Navy.
At the time they requested this gun they had just expanded to three building locations on the Kennebec River and were producting a ship every seventeen days. That output included both combatants such as Destroyers and Frigates and also Liberty Ships to haul cargo.
I can just seen old V67232 riding on the hip of some guy at the gate to a shipyard in Maine....... Thanks again.

The DSC revolvers were intended for essential stateside users - security guards for defense plants, shipyards, etc., also for local/state/federal law enforcement agencies. Ordinary civilians couldn't get them. DSC acted as an intermediary between the users and S&W. For example, if a county sheriff's department needed a few revolvers, they would submit a purchase order with payment to DSC, who would in turn submit the order with payment to S&W. S&W would then ship the guns directly to the sheriff's office. DSC also worked with other gun manufacturers such as Colt and H&R.

Slight correction:

The DSC purchased and prepaid for larger batches of revolvers, and then approved allocation of those guns to recipients who paid the DSC.

Documents about individual orders now accessible through the SWHF indicate that the DSC shipping orders sent to S&W involved no invoice or payment.

Good day all, New guy here. I recently inherited a Victory from my father in law and after looking through this thread I am hoping someone can tell me more about this gun.

As mentioned above, it's victory s/n V74198, the only proof marks I found on the frame are as follows. Under the left side grip at the bottom of the frame there is a 1 on the forward side and a 1 on the rearward side. On the upper part of the frame as it arches into the body of the gun there is a 0 about midway up and above that are what appear to be two sets of parentheses. Under the right side grip there is a V a Z and an S with the Z being next to dowel for the grip and the V and S below but not next each other.

The serial numbers on the frame, barrel, cylinder and grips all match and the gun is very solid.

By the way the V proceeding the number is stamped directly next to it, not on the other side of the lanyard ring (if that makes a difference).

Anything you can tell me is greatly appreciated!

Why don't you provide the caliber, the barrel length, and a picture or two? Then someone may be able to provide information.

This was in a lot of three guns I purchased at auction in order to get one of the others. I know nothing about these so have been trying to read all the postings here. Wow! Thanks for all the work! As the letter shows V482880 was shipped to the Navy Dec 30 1943 at Rosslyn VA. 4 inch barrel. It has German eagle proofs on the barrel, frame and cylinder. Also Heidelberg police markings on the backstrap and butt of one grip. Grips have matching serial number. No Navy markings? Have they been removed? Also WV on butt of frame. What does this mean? So the gun went to the Navy, then police service and finally retailed by Geco? Also came with this holster but not sure when this was added? Any info much appreciated.

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Yes

You have the timeline correctly figured out.

The serial is too high for a US NAVY marking. The Rosslyn location is associated with the OSS. The W on the butt has been discussed before, but I don’t think there is a definite explanation yet.

Baden-Württemberg (the state formerly abbreviated WB), where Heidelberg is located, got these in 1946 and collected them again in the early 1950s, and sold them as surplus. In this case, Geco bought the gun and had it commercially proofed for sale in Germany. Wherever the holster came from, it wasn‘t used by the Germans. Looks British.

I wanted to get a Victory Model into your database. I'm not having much luck with pics, but can give this information:

1.) 4" barrel,

2.) 38 smith and wesson special CTG

3.) Serial number: V146061 next to the lanyard loop on the butt.

4.) On the other side of the lanyard loop on the butt is the small flaming bomb symbol. (No other marks like a "W." Just the bomb symbol).

5.) Other markings: A tiny flaming bomb symbol also appears behind the yoke.

The top left strap has no markings like GHD, U.S. Navy, U.S. property, or anything like that. It looks completely plain.

6.) Finish--it smooth like a blued finish, but not as dark. Parkerized finishes that I've seen on other arms aren't as smooth as this. I think it may be the black magic oxide finish

Would it be worth getting a factory letter on this gun?

Welcome to the forum.

Without the topstrap marking, your Victory was shipped to a non-military destination like the Maritime Commission, a defense contractor, police department, etc., and a letter could tell you something interesting.

By that serial, V 146061, the original finish could only have been the standard Sandblast Black Magic with a comparatively rough surface texture, and any smooth finish with a surface that appears like a “normal” blued finish indicates a likely refinish.

Thank you for the information. I probably misspoke in calling the finish smooth. It's definitely got more texture than a blued finish.

Here's an attempt to provide pics:

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Yes, that is indeed a perfectly ordinary Victory finish. This finish is not the same as parkerizing and can indeed appear a bit more shiny, and lighter, especially after some wear. The picture below shows a Victory and a Colt Commando; the latter is actually parkerized, and appears darker and duller.

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Thanks for the pics, Absalom. I really wasn't sure what that finish was, especially as I started reading about the different types.

Very helpful.

Just received a letter for V176115. It says: "Smith & Wesson .38 Victory Model, US Navy contract, cal. .38 S&W Spl., company records indicate V176115 shipped Dec 1, 1942 to Ft. Mason, CA ( OSS) with 2 inch Bbl. military midnight black finish, butt swivel and smooth walnut grips. Shipment was for 500 units. " Ed.

Ed,
That should be 300 units. Is it your typo or Roy's? Does the letter actually mention the OSS? Is the top strap marked "UNITED STATES PROPERTY"?
Thanks

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Kevin, Letter says 500 units and I got out the invoice and it says 300 units, shipped in 3 cases at $21.00 ea for a total cost of $6300 on Dec. 1, 1942.
, per contract V-478-ORD-2462. The 500 was Roy's typo, apparently. The OSS attribution was my input, as it has no top strap markings. Also, for your research on the finish descriptions on Victory models, the letter say "military midnight black finish" and the invoice says "black magic finish" Ed.

Found this at work the other day. According to the other document, these seven revolvers, along with the Colt, were traded for four new 870 Shotguns and 10 shotgun cases. The department Armorer, who was also an FFL dealer handled the transaction. No idea how our agency (Hamilton County, OH Sheriff) got them in the first place. It would be nice to see if anyone out there wound up with any of them. My suspicion is that at least some of them came straight from the factory to the SO as I have seen two that we still have that are in very good condition.

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The DSC did supply quite a few to police departments during the war. What makes this a bit unlikely here is that the serials are not clustered time-wise, but range from late 1942 to 1944, so unless your department ordered these individually, they were more likely acquired as surplus after the war, which was quite common. Do you know or can you find out whether the two you mention as still being around have US PROPERTY on the topstrap? If so, they were definitely surplus.

Yes, they still have the U.S. Property and Guy H. Drewry acceptance stamp, so they are indeed surplus. Perhaps the almost pristine ones were drawn from unissued war stocks and surplussed out while the others were issued, returned and then surplussed out.

21bo3:

Thanks for posting this and the earlier data that you had recovered from the Hamilton County, Ohio Sheriff's Department. You had provided a lot of serial numbers in your Post #1961. Because there were so many I put them aside to enter into the Database later on. It then slipped off my radar until I found the data once again and plugged it into the Victory Model Database today.

You mentioned that you wondered if any of those guns had found their way to collectors here. I don't know if they ended up with guys here on the Forum. That's because I don't record the source of my data in order to protect the confidentiality of the guys who you provide me with data.

However, in a somewhat remarkable turn, I found that 2 of the Victory serials you reported as having been in the inventory of the Sheriff's Dept in 1986 were already in the Database. Specifically, V112556 was reported to be a Navy marked example with a factory letter. V92382 was also reported to be a Navy marked example but it had no factory letter data.

So, we know at least those 2 revolvers were not destroyed and eventually made their way from the Sheriff's Dept. into the hands of a couple of collectors somewhere. If those numbers pop up again some day we can now tell the owners a little bit more of the history of their Victories.

Thanks again to you and to all of the other collectors who have contributed information to the Database.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

S&W Victory 1943 shipped to USN Rosslyn, VA, likely the OSS Fowler Building.

P proof on left upper frame and “W” marked butt. German post-war eagles and police marked “70 WB-S-HDBG” for Baden-Württemberg-Stadtkreis-Heidelberg on backstrap and left grip base. Wurttemberg Baden is a German state; Stadtkreis translates to urban district; and Heidelberg is a city.

Geco retail marked and refinished. Numbers match on butt, cylinder, and under barrel and right grip. S&W letter included.

S&W Victory V482880 ls.jpg

S&W ltr Victory V482880 p.2.jpg

S&W Victory V482880 W & butt s:n.jpg

S&W Victory V482,880 police markings.jpg

S&W Victory V482880 cyl s:n.jpg

Hoya74:

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for your post. I am accustomed to reading your frequent posts over on the Colt Forum but it is nice to see you here.

The posting of your pics is most valuable as it provides additional information for the Database. As it happens your revolver was already in the Database with the notation that it had been up for auction in the February 2020 Morphy auction. The W mark on the butt and the West German Police markings on the back strap had not been observed or disclosed in the Morphy auction listing, so those bits of additional data help fill in important gaps.

Neat gun. Stick around the Forum here and we might just turn you into a S&W guy.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Thank you Charlie.

I saw the Victory on Gunbroker recently very early in the morning and used BIN once I read the letter and saw the Rosslyn destination.

Interestingly, I found a 1939 Congressional Navy Appropriations for leasing the Fowler Building in Rosslyn VA, the frequently listed destination for Colt OSS pistols. So perhaps the Navy was the managing agency or landlord for the Fowler Building which might explain the S&W letter listing the destination as "United States Navy, Rosslyn, VA."


My collecting lane is mostly WWII military which explains my interest in the Victory models while Colt offers a wider variety of WWII gems.

Add to data base: (1) V179435 Victory Model , 2 inch Bbl. 99+% all numbers match. .38 Spl. Open on the books, however this is one of the guns that went to OSS at Ft. Mason, CA., but missed being recorded in the shipping records. (2) 964262 , 4 in, .38 Spl. shipped 4/10/42 to USN. Factory restored dec. 1958. Stamped "Property of U S Navy" on left frame. (3) V291841 BSR .38S&W, 5 in bbl., "Converted by Cogswell & Harrison Ltd London" stamped on left frame. (4) V24053 4 in .38 Spl. USN marked on top strap. (5) V662730 4 in Bbl, 38 Spl. 95% 96) 992017 4 in .38spl. no lanyard swivel 99% (6) V293135 4 in Bbl, 38 Spl., 90% US Property GHD on top strap. (7) V5903 4 in 38 Spl., US Navy on top strap 95% (8) V349483 4 in Bbl 38 Spl. US Property GHD on top strap 98%. Ed.

Hello. I have an unusual victory model no one has been able to help me with. S# V165311. 2" pinned barrel, 5 screw, chrome with stag grips. Any help and info for documentation would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Tack

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Welcome to the forum, Tack. You have a pretty common gun. It started life as a British Service Revolver (BSR) in .38 S&W caliber. Many of these got the same treatment as yours did after the war--cut barrel, nickel plated, lanyard swivel removed and hole filled and plastic grips attached. Some have the cylinder reamed to shoot .38 Special and you'll get differing opinions as to how safe and successful such conversions are. Many of these were sold via mail order from ads in gun magazines. There are lots of examples just like yours on this forum, including in this very thread.

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

That SN tags its original shipping date to around late 1942-early 1943. Most of these revolvers were made for use by the British Commonwealth military during WWII, in caliber .38 S&W. In the late 1950s through most of the 1960s, the British surplussed out hundreds of thousands of them, which were bought up at scrap metal prices by various American surplus weapons dealers who imported them. To make them sell better in the USA, those dealers often chopped the barrels to 2", rechambered them to .38 special and frequently reblued or nickel plated them and added some cheap plastic grips. Most were sold by mail order (which was legal in the USA back then) for prices in the $25-$35 range. They have no collectible value. Probably the most notorious example was the chopped Victory allegedly used by Lee Harvey Oswald to kill Dallas police officer J. D. Tippett right after the JFK assassination in 1963.

Nice example. I will eventually add a foreign use stamped 4" 38spl Victory to the collection.

Dale

Hey guys.
Did I miss something or we lost the first post on this thread with all data ?

__________________
French Pollywog

I have been keeping an eye open hoping to pick up one each of the British Commonwealth-marked Victory or Pre-Victory Models. Noticed this one and it seemed interesting (to my novice eye anyway).
It is a Model 1905 M&P, Fourth Change 38 S&W revolver that was, I think, purchased directly from S&W by the British or at least a very early DSC contract gun. Serial on butt 790256.
It has no markings beyond the standard S&W markings and Australian markings. No British proof or inspection marks of any kind. The only markings are stampings showing rebuild at Lithgow Small Arms Factory in New South Wales, Australia in 1955. It also has the A Broad Arrow F mark of the Australian armed forces and an inspector's mark from Lithgow.
With no U.S. or British property markings I'm not clear how the revolver got to Australia but thats not unusual in the War, naturally. The cylinder has been bored out to .38 Special length and dummy rounds fit into the chambers nicely. It is also marked on the right sideplate under the S&W logo,"BORED IN AUSTRALIA." That has to be a commercial marking I would think so the gun must have been surplussed out but there are no markings showing that either.
Hope someone has some facts since thats all I know or can surmise about this interesting gun.

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Have a very nice looking post-Victory Model .38 M&P. Serial number S 836036. This S serial numbered gun has no hole for swivel. Not blocked, just never there. Otherwise is a great looking Victory Model-style revolver.
I report it here just in case it is appropriate for the data base. I was (and still am) looking for a nice S with blocked swivel hole (as made from an actual Victory Model left over frame). But this one is nice looking. Stocks seem correct for post-war. Thanks.

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With no indications of stop in Britain first, and the A^F mark which is uncommon, this is possibly one of the few thousand BSR’s from an Australia-direct shipment in May 1941. The gun would letter as such if it is. The serial puts it in the right general time frame. We have a member here, I can’t recall who, with a lettered one.

The “Bored in Australia” does sound like a commercial mark, not of US origin. It was refinished again, over the Lithgow FTR stampings. It also doesn’t have the VEGA stamp, like most that came back, so it had a different surplus history.

Hello Grendelbean:

Thanks for your post. I have included your S836036 in the Database although technically it is not a Victory since it does not have a V or SV in the serial prefix. However, I am not that fussy and will say that we have quite a few post-WW2 S prefix guns in the Database since those guns share many features with the Victory.

Member Jack is the local expert on the post-Victory guns around here so I am sure that he will interested to see your example.

Does it have a small "s" on the side plate?

One odd feature I noticed is that the tops of both Magna stocks appear to me to be shaved or sanded down. Are the stocks serial number matching to the gun?

Thanks again for the data.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

My dad had this one since I was a child and left it to me when he passed in 1982. i'd love to learn more about it.
The serial no. on the butt is V175051 with a number inside the crane, 22014. The finish is parkerized with very little wear and a faint ring around the cylinder.
It has a 4" barrel; marked on top "SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. USA PATENTED FEB. 6, 06, SEPT. 14, 09, DEC. 29, 14"; marked on left side "SMITH & WESSON"; and marked on the right side "38 S. & W. SPECIAL CTG".
The right side of the frame near the front is marked "MADE IN U.S.A." and the right side plate has the S&W logo.
The hammer is case-hardened, grips are standard smooth walnut, and it has a lanyard swivel.
My cell phone takes good pictures but I'll need instruction as how to send & post them. Thanks.

Can you tell us if there are any markings on the left side topstrap, such as "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D" or "U.S. NAVY"?

Also, are there any flaming ordnance bombs stamped on the revolver such as the one seen on in the butt pic I have provided? (The flaming ordnance bomb is to the left of the "V" on the example I have provided a pic of.)

Dale

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No "S" on the side plate and no "S" anywhere on the revolver save the serial number marking on the butt. Commercial blue finish that shows just the slightest bit of holster wear. The ejector rod end is knurled and of the typical victory model style.
Seems as though this one was assembled in the transition period when they were finally using up the remaining Victory frames and before they changed over to pure commercial serial numbers?

No "S" on the side plate and no "S" anywhere on the revolver save the serial number marking on the butt.
Finish is commercial blue with the slightest bit of holster wear.
Ejector rod knob is knurled and of the Victory Model Style.

Stocks show no sign of being sanded down although they are thicker around the middle (obvious by feel) than older Magna. The top of the stocks is contoured down to the frame from just above the medallion, but done so professionally as in the factory, with the finish the same as the rest of the stockls. Yes, the number stamped in two lines on the inside of the right stock is the correct serial for the gun, matching all the other serial markings.
Seems possible this was put together in the transition period when they were running out of remaining Victory Model frames and getting ready to change over the straight "C" commercial era?

Grendelbean:

On your S836036, the absence of both the S and of a plugged lanyard hole clearly establishes that this gun is NOT any “transitional” gun, but a standard post-war M&P newly manufactured in mid-1946 in the S-prefix series.

The ejector rod tip changed in mid-1947.

Some folks keep insisting on calling the entire post-war S-prefix series from 1946 to 1948 “transitional” and think they contain leftover Victory parts. They don’t, and most collectors don’t use the transitional description.

Thanks for the information. I do have it cataloged in my accumulation as a "Post War M&P."