Hi just picked a pre-victory serial number 863281 38 special with a 5 inch barrel and has no other markings any idea of what this is

Hi picked up a pre-victory serial number 863281 in 38 special marked 38 s&w special ctg on barrel with a 5 inch barrel

Sounds like you have a standard .38 Military & Police rather than a pre Victory. Can you post pictures? Does it have checkered service grips with medallions? Does it have a lanyard loop on the butt?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

It has lanyard loop and checkered grips I believe it was made late 41

Hi guys, just picked up a beautiful Victory 38 special SN V515612. It has the U.S. PORPERTY GHD on the top of frame. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks Ron Also how would I go about getting a letter from S&W

That appears to be a standard military-shipped US Victory from around Feb/March 1944. Likely went to the Navy.

For lettering it, follow the link below; you want the “letter of authenticity”.

Letter Process – Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation

Hi Ron:

Your Victory is already in the Victory Model Database. The Database records that your Victory was sold at Cowan's Auction in November, 2005. I suspect that you probably paid more that the 2005 auction sale price of $172.

If you get a letter please let us know how it turns out.

Regards,
Charlie

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Thank you for the information.

Thank you for the information. I will post after I get the letter.

Picked up this Victory Friday..
Serial Number V582537, marked US Property GHD, 5in Barrel in 38S&W

Any info is greatly appreciated

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Also picked this on up Friday

Serial Number 843970, 5in barrel, marked 38S&W, 3 1/2 ton on opposite side of barrel, neutered lanyard ring and a small BNP stamp with some faint marking above that. Gun is also marked 38 special on left side..

I'm figuring a lend lease gun that was later converted to 38 special, but honestly have no clue.

Any help is much appreciated

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45810:

Both your guns are British Service models, the 843- a pre-Victory from fall 1941, the V 582- a Lend-lease Victory from early/mid-1944.

Both appear to have been refinished, since they are both missing the large S&W logo on the sideplate and the MADE IN U.S.A. on the front frame.

The 843- seems to have been in considerably rougher shape before the refinish than the Victory. It’s been more extensively worked, hammer and trigger polished and ejector rod also refinished, which was not done on the Victory.

The BNP indicates British commercial proofing post-war. The CAL .38 SPECIAL on the frame does indeed mean it was converted post-war; we see this stamp occasionally, but most guns of this type were converted without any such marking. We don’t know which converter applied the stamp.

The 843 was pretty roung and has been buffed or blasted hard as the markings are pretty light..

They both still have the made in the USA stamp, but the camera washed them out due to lighting I guess. Interesting thing about the victory is most stamps are pretty sharp, but the logo isn't visible, like I cannot see where it was ever there, even under magnification. I wonder if the sideplate may have been changed or it wasn't stamped with a logo ?

On 843, I can see what looks to me as pitting on the cylinder. It appears to have been buffed/blasted and parked. Have a LGS that does that to almost any pitted gun that they get in.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

The whole gun is heavily pitted..

Going through my father's and mine collection, I found this very early Victory pistol, chambered in .38 S&W Special.


S/N V10440, all matching including the right side wood grip (the yoke numbers match each other but are different of course).



This appears to be one of the very early 'V' series pistols, still produced with the medallion checkered grips. Most interestingly though, it seems to be one of the early May-August(?) 1942 Parkerized finish guns, before they were forced to use other finishes due to trademarking issues? Can anyone confirm?



Any additional info would be helpful as well!

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! The magna grips are not original to the gun. Also, they have been modified on the left panel for a speed loader, it appears. I'll let the experts comment on the gun.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Indeed, as Guy says, these are magna stocks that did most definitely not come with this gun originally. So when you say:

... that is a bit surprising and can’t be unless somebody stamped a new pair of replacement stocks with the matching number. The factory started the smooth walnut standard Victory style in January 1942, around 90,000 guns before the V prefix even started.


The 2187 parkerized guns happened around serial 980,000, so your gun is definitely too late for that.

As far as I can tell, the finish appears the original sandblast Black Magic, although the very noticeable color difference between barrel and rest in the two side views is a bit odd. Artificial light always makes it hard to evaluate Victory finishes.

Thank you for your fast responses guys - much appreciated.


Forgive me, I'm a total newb to these S&W WWII era serial numbers, and even though I read a ton about it today on various websites, I think I'm misinterpreting the 'timeline' post from this website, which was the root cause of my confusion:

"1942: The Victory Models - Revolver production continued, reaching serial number 1000000 on April 24, 1942, whereupon the V-prefix (Victory) serialization was started at V1, reaching (approximately) V210000 at year-end 1942. Grip panels were changed sometime early in 1942 (in the low 900,000 SN range) from checkered wood with medallions to simpler smooth round top wooden stocks without medallions. A sandblasted Parkerized (phosphate) finish replaced the Black Magic oxide finish beginning in early May 1942 at serial number (approximately) 940000 to further speed up manufacture. Due to royalty payment issues, Parkerizing was soon replaced by a similar proprietary phosphate finish. The new S&W phosphate finish was phased in, completely replacing the earlier Black Magic blued finish by mid-August 1942. S&W factory letters refer this S&W phosphate finish as "Military Midnight Black." Whether this was an "official" name is unknown. It has been stated that the majority of all 1942 revolvers produced in the serial number range of V6 to V40000 will be found chambered in .38 S&W caliber, but without any doubt, some in this range were also produced in caliber .38 S&W Special. The first five 1942 Victory-series revolvers (V1 to V5) were made up in .38 S&W Special caliber as presentation pieces, having the earlier commercial Carbonia bright blued finish."


I think what you guys are saying, is that the phrase in bold above says that they 'changed grips around 900,000 S/N' of the *pre-V* serial numbers, not 900,000 in the Victory range.... I was thrown off because of the sentence it came right after, which talks of the beginning of the V1 serial range. But that also makes more sense too, otherwise there'd be almost a million Victory pistols out there with checkered grips, which you don't see. I also understand now that if you see any notation in the 900,000 S/N range, you're talking about pre-Victory guns, per this:

1944 – Victory production reached serial number (approximately) V740000 by year-end 1944, with few changes made in features and finish.

After that it was all SV prefix guns. OK thanks again for helping me run through the timeline changes on that.

Also, I'd agree on the finish; having done different types of home Parkerization on guns in the past, you get to know what Parkerization looks like, I could see my Victory pistol being that magic black finish, as it doesn't really have that greenish nor greyish look to it...With a sample size of one gun though, I'm going to have to trust the experts on that!

Anyway, here are some more photos of my pistol with the grips removed; serial number looks legit to me, but easy enough to stamp wood I guess.

So time to go hunt down some nice smooth grips then?

Chamberlin:

Nice gun. And interesting, too.

Is that a ★ marking on the butt? If so, that means that your revolver has been back to the factory for some work. And that probably explains why you have Magna stocks that are serial number matching which, with the low five digit serial number, would ordinarily make no sense at all....unless your revolver had gone back to the factory.

My guess is that the Magnas were fitted to your revolver during this rework. Smooth walnut stocks would have been the original stocks, but I would not substitute them now as the Magnas are part of the history of the gun.

Your photos are too small for me to be certain but isn't that a 3 digit number on the left side of the grip frame near the butt? If so, that is actually a date applied by the factory that indicates when the work was performed.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Regards,
Charlie

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Thanks Charlie! This all makes sense now, thank you...

Yes, I was just trying to find out about the star proof and couldn't find anything. And yes there is a 3 digit code on the frame, looks like 9 50 or 9 60 (I assume Sept. 1950/60?) I'll get my loupe out to take a closer look soon.

Thanks for saving me from buying some unissued grip stocks! Was just about to pull the trigger! (but I still kinda want to!)

P. S. Regarding the photos, click on them for larger versions. If you're on your phone, then also switch to desktop mode in your browser.

Chamberlin,

Is there any chance your father did the modification to the top of the left grip?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Nope! We've never even fired the gun (although it does need cleaning from the previous owner). That said, I think my father acquired the gun about 15-20 years ago, and like any other C&R gun he gets he doesn't do much with them other than look at them for a while and put them in the safe. We've fired a few of our guns of course, but I don't think we ever shot this one. He has a minty 1970 Model 28 Highway Patrolman that I think discouraged him from wanting to shoot revolvers (although .357 mag is a big difference from .38 S&W Special!).

Chamberlin:

You are very welcome. Yes, the 3 digit code is September of 1950 or 1960. I will leave it up to you to determine if it is a 50 or a 60 on the frame.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

If the gun went back to the factory in 1950 or 1960, it wouldn’t have been just for new stocks, and that significantly increases the chance that it got an (“original”) refinish. The finish is in suspiciously excellent and consistent condition for an early-war vintage.

That also makes complete sense, thank you guys for your input! Factory refurb/upgraded Victory pistol! Very interesting.

I'm not looking for more work, but, I'd letter this one. A neat history. No, I won't say what or where.

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Don Mundell

DING, DING, DING!!! We have a winner!

Chamberlin, I would really, really get a letter for this revolver.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

[talltale]Let me surmise it was owned by Allen Dulles of CIA fame who sent it back to S&W in September 1960 for a refinish and installation of magna grips modified for a speed loader. Shortly after getting the gun back, Dulles passed away and it was sold out of his estate.[/talltale]
Am I getting warm?

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Will do guys- We've got bring back papers for 3 other of our WWII era pistols, and I think it would be great to get a factory background check on this S/N and see where/how it passed through history before it ended up in our gun safe!

Guy
In one work, NO!

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Don Mundell

An earlier owner appears to have used a grip adapter at some point. Note the two small rectangular depressions high on the front edge of each cheek piece where the metal ears on the adapter crushed the grain of the wood when the grip screw was fully tightened.

The use of an adapter as well as the speedloader reconfiguration of the left cheek piece suggests that the former owner may have had a professional interest in mods that permitted fast reloads and quick orientation on a target. But then lots of people make changes like that whether they are in such a profession or not, so who knows.

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David Wilson

The only clue I'll give is Dinah Shore. Us old F***S remember her.

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Don Mundell

Well, let's see, George Montgomery, Maurice F. Smith, and of course, Bert Reynolds, come to mind.

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Illegitimi Non Carborundum

Chamberlin, do you participate in the "Military Handgun Forum". If not, you should.

Your WWII handguns would be very much appreciated there. As, would this Victory. It's a very active forum with a lot of knowledgeable collectors.

Link> Military Handgun Forum | Gunboards Forums

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Illegitimi Non Carborundum

Shucks! I was hoping for a real spy gun, darn it!

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Hello Quiet 1, I'm not on that forum, but I've been on the German rifles area of that site recently while researching our 1944 dated K98 Mauser. I've got about 26 rifles and 18 pistols I'm cataloging on a spreadsheet, as my father has sadly asked me to sell the collection for him (he's 83 now and has had his fun with them). I was a fairly avid C&R collector myself in the late 90's early 2000's, which evolved into devoting over 10 years of my firearms time completely to the Kalashnikov rifle and other Soviet weapons. I founded a world-wide experts group for the AK-47 and its variants called the KCA (Kalashnikov Collectors Association) in 2001, but have since left the gun collecting hobby some years ago. It's been fun re-visiting my father's collection for sure, largely in part to active forums like this! Thank you for your encouragement...

I have V1871XX, "U.S. Navy". VG original condition. No post war markings.

Need pictures!

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Is this the proper place to request the two letters?

Letter Process – Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation

Looks like about $100 for the authenticity letter, then another application afterward for the historical letter?

Yes. The letter of authenticity is what Don talked about. And while SWHF records on Victory work during the war are sparse, a 1950 or 1960 rework does fall into the time period covered by the digitized records and could produce results for the follow-up research, which won‘t cost you anything unless Bill finds something..

I picked up a new-to-me Victory today at a gun show. The serial no. is v296836, flaming bomb U.S. Property G.H.D. on top strap, .38 S&W ctg., five inch barrel. Oddly to me is that there are none of the usual British proof marks usually put on the revolver when exported. I'm thinking this one was never exported or some soldier brought it home after the war. Any ideas when it was made and if it shipped out of county?

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Kevin in Oregon

Mid-1943.

A BSR with no post-war proofs is less common, and more desirable to collectors, but not that unusual. Not having been exported is highly improbable.

Keep in mind that only guns sold through regular surplus dealers in Britain itself can be expected to have any commercial proofs. These guns went everywhere within the Commonwealth. A few countries like Australia and South Africa had their own markings, but lots of these either were “retired” from military service before they could be officially surplused out, like your idea of a soldier’s bringback, or were gathered up post-war by the likes of Sam Cummings somewhere in the world and never saw Britain again.

I just acquired this "Pre Victory". Serial number is 966792. It is marked "United States Property" The butt is stamped with WB in a box, there is the flaming bomb and a small P stamp. It has the lanyard loop. The pistol has been FTR in 1955. It is chambered in 38 S&W.
Something unusual is the large D^D stamp and then the small D^D stamp. I have included a picture of the stamps.
Can anyone tell me the year it was made and any information about the stamps

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I answered this question about this gun somewhere within the past few weeks, but can’t remember where.

It’s a relatively early Lend-lease gun from around April 1942.

The Australians stamped some of the earlier S&W revolvers they got with military property marks, either A^F for Australian Forces or D^D for Defence Department. Generally, this stopped when the US-marked LL guns started, but some, like apparently yours, were still so stamped.

So the big D^D was applied at an earlier time than the small D^D, which came with the FTR markings in 1955.

The gun was likely refinished twice, once presumably at the FTR at Lithgow in 1955 and again later, probably after re-import to the US, because all markings are under the most recent finish, and Lithgow always stamped on top of their work.

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Absalom, Thank you for the information. After reading your many posts through the years I became intrigued with the Victory models and their differences. I guess I just like the history, I even got Pates book on your recommendation. About halfway through it now.

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Kevin in Oregon

I have been meaning to post this for a while, and now have time. Any comments and remarks are welcome, as I don't know much about this at all. I have posted some photos and have more if they will help the database, just let me know.

Serial number V722146, numbers all seem to all match.

US Property G.H.D.

"P" marks, on the barrel flat under the ejector rod, the left side of the frame by the hammer.

"S" marks, one on the metal under the right grip panel, the other stamped on the yoke by the assembly number.

"D" on the frame above the assembly number, and on the metal under the left grip panel.

Holster marked USN Boyt 43

I have seen pictures of Naval Aircrewmen wearing holsters like that. Not sure if that have been modified by a 'rigger or not.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

It is a late-1944 (Nov/Dec) US Victory, likely Navy shipped. All standard markings. There should also be a P proof on the back face of the cylinder. The D and S are just internal factory marks.

The holster is of the right type, but has seen a lot more service than the gun, whose condition indicates it may never have seen any. You don‘t indicate how you acquired both or each, or whether you think they “belong together”, but I think they met up sometime after the war.

AJ is correct about the naval aviators using these holsters with cartridge loops. See picture below.

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Good Day Gentlemen. To add to the database please include SN S V 800003. This number (SN) appears in all the correct locations except under the bbl, which is of the short type (2") as seen in posting 119 by Fishnic. There is a small P stamped on the underside of the bbl when the cylinder is swung out. Crane and frame are also correctly numbered to each other, 63521.

This firearm is chambered in .38 S&W special, though it doesn't say so anywhere on the revolver, and it has not been rechambered.

When first this revolver came into my care i thought the bbl was a fake because of the crude tool marks but after having seen another like it and that one being confirmed as correct I am no longer of that belief. I'm now of the belief that it was expedient to get them on the front lines asap and they were not expected to survive long.

This firearm belonged to a good friend of mine and was gifted to me (along with some other desirable firearms) after his passing. I'd be interested in the background of such a firearm if you think it's worth the time, effort, and $$$

Llance