Can someone provide a good description of the differences between these two grip designs?

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Aaron Terry

Check out this thread. There are many examples of Keith Brown's Ropers,as well as a couple of excellent examples of his Kearsarge grips. As they say,a picture is worth a thousand words.

Assorted grip pics

f.t.

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South Carolina-God's country

A quick answer, if you're referring to original items, is that Kearsarge grips used great quality walnut, while Ropers are pretty mundane. Looks like the guy who made the ropers, Gagne, just went to his local saw mill and bought a few walnut boards. Its like comparing the wood on Browning high grade rifles to the wood used on war vintage M1s. Roper used walnut, but its not pretty.

There aren't many folks here with Kearsarge grips. I bought a set of N frame grips because they were the nicest set of grips I'd ever seen up until that time. After I had them for a few years Smithnut, a poster here, put a picture up on the forum of a set. Turns out they came from one of his friends, and It might be Mike Priwar who had them. Then a few years later a guy from up east managed to do an astounding feat. He found a couple sets, one even for a K frame.

What Keith Brown has done was borrow my grips and took measurements. He then began producing very good replicas. Keith isn't afraid to buy and use fine quality walnut. He seems to realize the cost of the wood is a very minor component in the cost when you consdier how much time and effort he needs to use. Keith appears at almost all the OGCA shows (one coming up this weekend) and can usually be found huddling with "Pizza Man" on some grip deal. )

I'm going to guess I left out the idea that Ropers contribution to the art form was his use of drawings to modify each set of grips. He required his customers to trace their hand on a sheet of paper as part of their order process. I guess he modified the circumference of his grips to fit the hand of the person. I don't think we know enough about Kearsarge to know. But the one set I have fits my hands and eyes just fine!

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Dick Burg

Here are sets of Keith Brown's reproductions:

Kearsarge:



Ropers:









Original Target Ropers:

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Richard

I'll take a run at your question. The most obvious difference is the carved pattern on the Keasarge compared to the checkering on the Roper, both are there to help with traction but accomplish it in a different way. The Kearsarge generally is a more straight sided grip with little or no flair at the base. The Roper generally has a more contoured side and noticeable flair at the base. The Kearsarge usually lacks any palm swell while the Roper almost always has it. Every set of both makers grips are different when examined closely. In my opinion the Ropers are much better made showing great consistency in internal wood work, the Kearsarge sets I've examined vary quite a bit inside and it's not unusual to find hidden repairs that I'm fairly certain were done during the making of the grips. I say this because in my early grip making attempts I did some of the same corrective repairs. With all that said I think both makers grips are beautiful examples of each artisans work, highly collectable and valuable, I'm inspired by every set that I see and am lucky enough to handle. Again, just my thoughts on the subject.

Keith

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www.kbgrips.com

Thanks to all for your comments. I initially thought the main difference was in the carving, but as Keith explained, there is some difference in the mechanics of the grips as well. I am wondering if anyone feels that the carving and/or mechanical difference causes them to handle differently?

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Aaron Terry

Keith,
Thanks for the great info. One of these days I'm going to be lucky enough to have a gun which will "need" a set of your stocks. On another note, I was checking out your website and all of your galleries are gone!

Bill

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US Marine, 16 years+

I thought you guys might like to hear about the day I met Charlie wendell the guy who made Kearsage grips. I was in a gun shop in Canton Massachusetts back in the 1970's. I saw a pair of Kearsarge grips for an "S" frame in the case and asked to see them. I said wow those are nice grips. The man standing beside me said I made them. He introduced himself as Charlie Wendell. I asked if he would make me a set of grips and he said he was retired but that I should contact him and he would see what he could do. He gave me his card and I bought the grips that the store owner had for sale. Not knowing at the time that this was the last oppertunity for me to buy a new set of Kearsarge grips and being short of cash I delayed in calling Charlie. A year or two later a friend of mine contacted Charlie and found out Charlie had passed away. He asked Charlies daughter if there were any grips left that he could purchase. She invited my friend over and he purchaced what was left of Charlies stuff. No grips but he purchased the frames that were used to fit the grips he made. I haven't seen my friend in quite some time and don't know what he did with Charlies stuff. In a weak moment I sold the Kearsrge grips I bought that day and have regretted it ever since. Hope I didn't bore you guys. By the way Charlie was a nice old guy when I met him. I was just a young guy then and he took the time to talk to me probably knowing I was just kicking tires. RHP

There is a big difference in the artistic capabilities of these two
men. Kearsarge was a real true artisan wood carver, while Roper/
Gagne was a grip maker. We , on this forum, years ago, had a thread
or two featuring the wood carving of Wendell. One of our members
lives in the town, and had visited the family, and taken lots of
pictures of his work. I may still have some of the pictures, and if
I can find them, I will post them here.

Here is a couple of the pictures:





Regards, Mike Priwer

That box is stunning. I never even imagined such a thing existed.

Thanks for sharing.

Oh my word! That box is unbelievable! Thank you for sharing that pic. Just WOW!

This pair of grips should be the ones on the revolver in the box. Note
the elaborate initials carved onto the right grip panel. They are C R W,
meaning Charles Wendell, the carver. I think the gun and box were
his.



This next picture is another of Wendell's own grips, but a different
design to the carving:





The next two pictures are smooth uncarved grips. Note the
outstanding wood:





Next is another carved pair, that may also have the C R W initials:



More to come, Mike Priwer

This is a pair of K-frame ivory stocks:





Regards, Mike Priwer

These next two pictures are two guns that I own. They are full King
rib revolvers, with Kearsarge stocks. One has the initials HLC, that
stands for Harold Criger. The gun was shipped to him in Fairbanks,
Alaska, in 1937, and is a 44 special caliber. I think there is a
picture of him in Ed McGiverns book. This gun was shipped with
target sights.

The other gun is a 38/44, full King rib, and Kearsarge grips with the
initials HK. This gun was shipped to King Gunsight in 1938 as a
6 1/2 inch heavy duty. The invoice was specifically marked
"Not Target". I'm not sure who the initials H K represents.





Regards, Mike Priwer

ALL Those grips are beautiful and that box is AMAZING!!!!! As a "hobby" woodworker I'm really impressed. I REALLY didn't need t see these!!!

Thank you again Mike for sharing those pics. Just amazing how truly talented some people are.

Awesome. That is true artistry.

I think I am the guy a couple of threads have spoken of. I don't know much of anything about Roper grips, but I know a few things about Kearsarge and Charlie Wendell.
When a person ordered a set of Kearsarge stocks, Charlie sent them a paper with detailed instructions on tracing the shooting hand the stocks would be held by. Those oak leafs were carefully incorporated in to the stock, to fill the gap at knuckle-bends as the hand wrapped around the stock. At first those leafs just look nice, but there is more to them than meets the eye. Indeed, they might just be the best fitting grips you've ever put your hands around, if the original owner and yourself have hands nearly the same size.
Charlie's older children remember taking walks with him, in to the forest. During some of these walks he would bring a saw and shovel, and when he found the right tree he would cut it down and then dig out the base, for the wood burl he used. I doubt this is how he got all of his wood, but some of it for sure.
His early work was all done by hand, and then later he learned how to use a rotary tool, the early version of a Dremel.
He made that box. Others like it too. That box by the way, contains Charlie's RM, both now owned by a Wendell family friend, a name that would be recognized by pretty much everyone here.
I think Charlie was on the Canton Massachusetts PD Auxillary and their shooting team, back in the day, if not there in Canton then it would be a town in the area. The info I have isn't confirmed yet, and I haven't had time to make anything other than initial inquiries.
Charlie was a chemist by trade, and this stuff was more of a hobby. The site of his shop is now Warner Power, on Depot Street in Warner New Hampshire (where I am typing from), the wooden building he worked out of burned down long ago. The locals called it the crutch factory, and apparently Charlie was, at least briefly, the man in charge there. I have some old photos of it. I am not sure if any of them show the place as it was when he worked there, because they are undated photos, and according to what I've found out it burned more than once.

His first chemist job out of college, in Boston, had no lab for him to work out of, and apparently little money to buy one. Charlie got the equipment to blow glass and he literally taught himself to blow glass and made his own lab to work out of.
He also loved to play music, and he blew a glass coronet that really could be played. It was dropped one Christmas and shattered, all that is left today is the glass mouthpiece for it.
He was, in short, one of those guys with incredible amounts of talent and ability.

Ed McGivern loved Kearsarge stocks and had several sets of them. Elmer Keith apparently did not care for them, though Doug Wesson commissioned Charlie at least twice to carve ivory stocks for special, presentation 44 magnums, that went to Keith. I can not prove it, at least not yet, but I believe Charlie carved several other sets of ivories for other guns going to other people. He and Doug Wesson were friends. The set of ivory stocks pictured above is on a Model 34 (of all things!) and is owned by the Wendell family.
My photos are put away on CDs, but I will try and dig them out and maybe post a few shots here.

The ultimate Model 19/66 Combat Magnum thread

This link hopefully takes you right to my post in the "Ultimate Combat Magnum" thread here, where I posted a photo of Charlie's own 19-2, an early 6" 19 finished in nickel. I don't think there are many of them around. And, the nickel CM photo owned by one of his friends, with a marvelous-fitting set of smooth stocks Charlie made. If the link doesn't work quite right, it's all on page 8 of that topic.

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Geoff. Since 1960.

You guys are making me feel real lucky for stumbling onto my one lonely set of Kearsarge grips, years ago. These days it keeps an old 44 3rd model company. Its one of two known target 4" guns. Mine shows the ravages of a good honest life. The grips look and feel good.

I've got a couple of sets of Keith's grips, purchased from him back when he was just getting started on his 2nd career. Guess I need to find a gun to store them on some day. It might be an excuse to buy a gun with the wrong wood just to give them a home.

I once owned a few sets of Ropers, too. For any number of reasons I ended up selling them. They just weren't what I liked.

I owned the Kearsarge grips for a few years before I had any idea who had made them. This thread keeps fleshing out more detais of the guy's grips. I still have no clue how many were made, or how some of them filtered down to this part of the country. The only ill feeling on the subject is now everyone knows what they are and I can't snatch them up quick and cheap!

I've maybe never been known for my good taste. But my take on the situation these days is if I see a set of Kearsarge grips for sale, I'll be seriously interested in buying them. If I see a set of Ropers, I'll pass.

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Dick Burg

This is the nickel Mod 19 with smooth Kearsarge stocks, that Geoff
is referring to:



Mike Priwer

Charlie Wendell in his college yearbook.





1930s American Rifleman ads.






Scans of his brochure. I would LOVE to know where any of the sets of stocks he used for the brochure are! Note the single letter "K" in the monogram area. I have never heard so much as a rumor of anyone having stocks he made for any auto loading pistols, but there they are, right in the brochure. Obviously this would be a spectacular find, if the day comes when someone gets a set. I hope it happens.



From [I]Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, [I] by Ed McGivern.



Holster made by Charlie Wendell.




I think this too, is from Ed McGivern's book.

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Geoff. Since 1960.

For me, the best pair of Kearsarge stocks is shown in the following
picture. These are my stocks, on one of my McGivern guns that Jim
Olsen recently sold. You will see this design on the third page of the
catalog that Geoff posted, above. Its called the McGivern model.
Jim also had a lot of correspondence by Ed Mcgivern. One was a letter
to his friend/benefactor Walter Groff, discussing his pleasure with
the stocks that Kearsarge had made for him, to fit his smaller
hands.

Another interesting aspect of these grips is that, unlike the traditional
initials in the bottom left corner of the right grip, this pair has Ed's
full signature.



Regards, Mike Priwer

Hello aterry33
I can't help you with an Kearsarge stock's as I do not own a Pair, but here is a typical set of Original Walter Roper stocks that are shown mounted on my 1935 S&W Registered Magnum. As Other's have Mentioned Matheis Gagne the artisan that made all of Roper's stock's, focused on shooters needs more so than the stocks Grain or looks, differing from the Kearsarge ones. His stock's are made for comfort and good gun control with the Palm swell and bell shaped bottom, they are the most comfortable set of stock's I have Placed in my hands and make the gun point Natural when shooting Target's... Roper made many of his stock's for the Camp Perry shooting Teams back in the Late 1930's-mid 1940's time span. They are very hard to come by and the set shown is still wearing it's original finish. I scored these about Five years ago while at a gun show. The vendor that had these had them Placed on a Much newer Model 27-2 revolver. He shared with me that he wished he had the original period correct stock's for his 27-2 as he felt it would sell quicker. I told him to keep that thought as I slipped out to my truck and returned with a set of S&W Factory Target stock's for his gun and we Traded straight up. I was very Pleased when I left the gun show that day... Regards, Hammerdown

Here is further information on Keith Brown from a post by handejector..

Check the link to the March 2011 Magazine...

The article on Keith's grips in the March, 2011 issue of "Guns" magazine is available online at- http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/GUNS/GUNS0311/
Click on the March edition of "GUNS" magazine. Keith's pic is in the Table of Contents, article on page 64.

It was written by our member "SDH".

The original Roper grips shown below are the ones featured in the article..

__________________
SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP

Hello ditrina
Those appear to me to be Original Roper stock's you have shown there ? They are More Rare then Hen's Teeth these days with other's grabbing them up Lightning Fast, they sure do not show up often. I will say this, I have seen Keith Brown's work on the recreated Roper stocks he makes and the man is a True wood craftsman. His stock's carry a much higher grain definition to them than any that Roper ever Offered, Placing them in the Class of their Own. If I did not have an Original pair of Roper stock's in my Stash I sure would be turning to Keith for a Pair of his recreated Roper's. perhaps someday I will buy a set of his just to dress up one of my worthy revolvers they are striking and nicer than the Originals were Indeed... Hammerdown

I have seen a few pairs of original Roper grips for sale, but never a set of original Kearsage grips. This may be an unanswerable question, but were there many more Roper grips made than Kearsage? How many years did each produce grips?

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Each one, teach one

What price range would a pair of kearsage go for? Has any other company made a likeness other than Keith?

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GRIN AND BEAR IT

Charlie Wendell carved grips almost to the end of his days. Not all of them would have oak leafs, and I suspect there are "maker unknown" sets of his work out there across the country. Your guess is as good as mine as to how to go about trying to positively ID them. I've actually seen a couple of sets of smooth grips I suspect he made, because of the wood used and the general shape, but there is no telltale signs, such as the square holes found on the inside of the Ropers.
I think at one time, between the mid 30s and the mid 50s, he was fairly busy, & I think more of his stocks will be found as time goes by. The thing is, in talking to his children (now middle aged and a bit beyond), and the others who knew him, or who's own fathers were friends with Charlie, I am left with the impression that it is likely the common case that these are the sort of people who aren't often going to get rid of Dad's old guns, but instead would hang on to them. For the most part anyway. The stocks that we see are generally found on high end guns of their day, and they were usually shot a lot. Many of them were used in formal shooting. These guns would be family heirlooms. I don't think there are 1000s of sets out there, waiting to be found, but certainly quite a lot more than the few sets we collectively have. I am currently working on aquiring a set, which I have no gun to oput them on, but I am going to try and get them anyway. An example of his early work. I recall seeing a pair of highly collectible Colt revolvers on GA about 5 years ago which both had Kearsarge stocks with the same monogram on them, they were sold together as a set. And, we used to have another Geoff here, who vanished...but before he did, he was putting together a really nice collection of prewar S&W revolvers, and I think he had a set, or maybe 2, of Kearsarge stocks, but I am not certain of that. I am not sure where they went to.

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Geoff. Since 1960.

Nice to see this thread again, lots of info and photos that I had not seen before. I find it all very interesting stuff. With Mr. Wendell having a day job I can't imagine he ever got beyond a few sets a week at best. I've got a pic or two of the set Dick B. loaned me, perhaps I can get his permission to post the photo.

Keith

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www.kbgrips.com

Mike:

You're killing me... That 38/44 King Super Target WITH the Kearsarge's on it is very nice...

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Richard

Sure Keith, never a problem. See you tomorrow if you're going to the show.

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Dick Burg

In 1936 I believe, in this region there were severe spring floods that had major impact on pretty much every town in the area. This is a scan of an old postcard. In the foreground is what was called the Ella bridge, destroyed by the flood. However it is the background that is relevant to this thread...
The building behind the boxcar, with the cupola on the roof, is the "crutch factory"; that being what was called Kearsarge Woodcraft at one time. Mike P. sent me a photocopy a few years back of a letter with Charlie Wendell as the signature on it, a letter from Kearsarge Woodcaft, to the offices of Smith & Wesson.
The building, which must have been heavily damaged by the same flood, remains standing in this photo, and this is about the best shot I can come up with, for a mid-1930s era (when the ads shown above were being run in The American Rifleman), which shows literally the building Charlie Wendell was working and advertising out of at the time. Though no doubt much of his work was also done at his home in Warner, this would have been his base.
The heart-breaking thing is, for me anyway, I haven't yet determined where in Warner Charlie was living, though believe me I have tried to. The family I have contact with can't remember where the home was (they were too young), and the few old timers still around here in Warner don't remember him at all. Local tax records are a bust so far, as is the NH Secretary of State's office (he apparently never registered Kearsarge Woodcraft as a business with the State). I don't know what to do next, if anything, but I would sure love to know where he lived, and be able to show you all that too.



Today, Warner Power, a high tech/high voltage transformer manufacturer, occupies the site that Kearsarge stocks originated from.

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Geoff. Since 1960.

Something nice in my hands today! Here is a "new" set of Kearsarge stocks to have a look at. New to us anyway, this gun has essentially spent the last 50 years (give or take) tucked away in a safe. Thats an old New Service, in .45 Colt.
The stocks are an example of Charlie's earlier work. Later on he used the "pinhole" pattern as a background, while these older stocks have this chiseling toolmarked background to them. The difference (I am sure) is that this set was carved by hand entirely, while later he was using a rotary tool, today known best as a dremel tool.
Really, I am not sure why we compare Ropers to Kearsarge at all, because once you get beyond "custom stocks" there is little about them that was done the same. The Ropers I've actually seen are few (I've seen more Kearsarge), but this forum and the photos of Ropers found here clearly show that they were also 2nd to none in their workmanship and quality. Every bit as top shelf as Kearsarge. I can't say I'd pass on a set of Roper's, Mr. Burg!



Remove the stocks, find a little surprise. A first rate engraving job, too. I wonder who R.M. King was? Note the monogram on the right stock.




The man who owns this revolver was going to trade me this set of Kearsarge stocks, for a set of correct factory Colt stocks for this revolver. But, when I took them off and found the nice engraving underneath, I realized I couldn't complete the deal. Then I pointed out the monogram, which the owner hadn't even noticed (!!!), and it was quickly and mutually decided the stocks have to stay with this revolver.
But thats okay, because I now am also on the trail of a set which is on an early Detective's Special.....guess you'll have to wait and see what might materialize in the coming weeks!

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Geoff. Since 1960.

Geoff

That is a wonderful set of stocks. Its the first time that have
seen the initials take up so much of the carving. Typically they
are the size of a nickel, or so, and in the very lower corner of the
grips. In this case, they are almost part of the engraved pattern.

The engraving on the side of the frame is very curious. I would think
that Kearsarge was not aware of it, and probably didn't realize that
the stocks would completely cover it up . Unless - on the other hand -
he was aware of it, and the grips were made to intentionally cover
it up . This I doubt, but its possible.

The current owner apparently doesn't know who King was/is, so I
would have thought that he would offer the whole combination to
you, for sale. Guess not, though.

Regards, Mike

Now that right there puts a lump in my throat!!
Simply Simply Beautiful..

Thanks for posting..

__________________
SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP