I recently have read references to Post Offices using handguns, usually in the 19-teens or twenties. (Such as the M1917 in 'US Handguns of WWII' which uses the example of the Army to the PO formal transfer in May 1951, p 68-69). Was it common for postal employees to 'carry' in this era?

I would think that "area" rather than "era" is the question. I would imagine that in the western states and in rural areas in the east it would not be uncommon for postal carriers to pack a pistol back in the day. I am just speculating. However, with this being the smith and wesson forum someone is going to come on here with documentation, examples of weapons carried, holsters used, and a first person account of a postal employee killing a mountain lion in Idaho while on his route with a fine triple lock .44. I can't wait to see what we find out.

Not sure what they carried but here is a gun commonly called the "Post Office" model. It is a Model 45, basically an M&P in 22 lr. that was ordered by the P.O. for training purposes. Also, here is a thread about some Post Office guns. http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/...e-holster.html

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John. SWCA #1586

At one time, it was common for USPS workers to carry very high value packages... the Hope Diamond was delivered to the Smithsonian by Parcel Post, insured for a princely $1 Million, IIRC. At one time, each PO had a couple of revolvers in their safe for just such occasions. I'm looking for one of the so-called Post Office Models of the late '20s or early '30s... essentially a 2" barreled .32 Regulation Police. I have never seen one, but I'm assuming it will be like a square butt version of my 2" post-War .32 HE.

Froggie

Man has the world changed. Can you imagine how many of our politicians would faint dead-to-the-floor at the suggestion of a bill to allow mail carriers to 'carry'.

Would add a whole new chapter to "going postal".

At one time mail carriers were allowed to carry guns. That ended during LBJ's term in office.

RR Express cars on trains were armed. Some postmen carried their own guns on rural routes. The late Skeeter Skelton told in, Shooting Times how an older relative carried an artillery model Luger and shot standing geese with it from his delivery vehicle.

And USPS Inspectors are law enforcement personnel who still carry. My ex-wife married one, who said they had stainless Ruger Security-Sixes and Federal 125 grain JHP ammo when he did that. I believe he mentioned three-inch barrels and round butts. Probably Speed-Sixes.

In the old days, a lot of Colts like the Banker's Special saw use.

Now, I don't think that postal empolyees can even carry a pocketknife.

Bear in mind that the Postal Service, in addition to Post Office workers and letter carriers, had (and still has) an investigative division staffed by inspectors charged with investigating postal theft, mail fraud and other crimes. These inspectors have power of arrest and are armed.

Bob

Father was issued and had to carry a S&W model 1917 in a tan flap style holster that was embossed on the front in an oval, USPO.

He was a rural mail carrier.

Inspectors of the United States Postal Inspection Service (USPIS) are all assigned all around the world. I have one who works with me now from time to time and he investigated complex financial cases involving the crime of mail fraud. (I'll ask him about this but I don't think he carried a gun on his type of duty.) I knew another, a young woman assigned to an office in Brussels for US-European narcotics interdiction.

The last gun I heard of that was government issue to USPIS inspectors was a 3" bbl stainless Ruger, not my kind of gun but perhaps worthwhile for the novelty. Of course there's the beautiful "Post Office Model" above and I had heard of Model 1917's being issued to post offices, but I don't know if that's true. It would seem to me that since there was a Post Office Model 45 for training, then Postal Inspectors must have been issued field weapons otherwise they would not have been training.

I would really like to know what 1896-1961 S+W's were post office issue. Does anyone have good information on that?

That is so cool.

Ah, don't suppose, you by any chance still have that holster? Even a picture of that holster would be terrific.

A friend of my Dad was working as a window clerk in the early '70s told me there was one .38 on the window line, he said he voulenteered to be the "shooter". Also the Auto Ordinance co. would have gone bankrupt without an order for Thompsons before the Navy order in the '20s

The only thing that "our politicians" care about is being re-elected......if they thought it would get them more votes they would be stumbling all over themselves to make sure the Post Office had the best guns money could buy!!

Don

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Laus Deo! <><

He managed to hang on to the holster when the revolvers were sent back and he gave it to me.

It was one of many treasures lost in a house fire in 1993.

FYI, the current standard issue sidearm for Postal Inspectors is the Sig P229R DAK in .40S&W. Inspectors assigned overseas as liasons or attaches would not be armed, as is the case with most federal law enforcement agencies.

I saw one of the Ruger "post office" revolvers in a local gun shop many years ago. It was a stainless, Ruger Speed Six with a unique 3" bbl.

Just about every federal agency has an armed law enforcemnt unit - even the Bureau of Land Management.

My grandfather was a small town postmaster in northern Michigan in the 20s & early 30s. He sold his general store to a cousin and the PM job went with it. When the cousin died his widow succeeded him until she closed the store and retired sometime in the late 50s. As of the early 70s she was still driving her 1947 Chevy pickup out to California for the winter each year. Beside her on the seat was a folded army blanket. In the blanket was a S&W 1917. I am quite certain she didn't buy it at the local hardware store.

I'm sure Edna has long since been canceled and delivered, but I wouldn't mind finding the Smith or the Chevy .

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I need ammo, not a ride.

There is a very famous photograph of postal employees delivering the Hope diamond to the Smithsonian Institution with drawn revolvers. The Hope diamond was shipped to the Smithsonian by registered mail, which was considerd as ultra secure shipment in those days.

Do you have to keep flaunting your M-45????????

pre model 32 Terrier shipped to USPS in Washington D.C. in 1951.
As aside note my father was a registry clerk in 1950-1960 time frame at the post office in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. He told me he had a Colt 2 inch 38 in drawer he took with him every night when he took the registered mail to train station. Said he went to local PD once a year fired 6 rounds to qualify to carry gun.

"Now, I don't think that postal empolyees can even carry a pocketknife."

I was a rural carrier associate (part time mailman) and I was allowed to carry a knife. It was useful for cutting bundles of mail apart.

" Of course there's the beautiful "Post Office Model" above and I had heard of Model 1917's being issued to post offices, but I don't know if that's true."

Skeeter wrote about buying a number of post office surplus Colt 1917s. He also wrote that while he was awaiting appointment to the Border Patrol, he took a job as a letter carrier in Amarillo. Some toughs made a threat against him. He stated that he knew it was against the rules, but he carried a pre M15 in his letter bag, in addition to the US Mail.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

My grandfather was a letter carrier from the 1930s until his retirement in the 1950s. Grandma told me once that he routinely packed a small handgun in his pocket but it was a personal gun and not issued.

With the proliferation of pitbull attacks and dogs roaming free in packs in some eastern cities, i don't know that i'd want to risk my life/limbs on a can of pepper spray. I remember reading that in one large eastern city neighborhood, all mail delivery was suspended due to this very problem. People had to come to Post Office to pick up their mail. I want to say it was Detroit but maybe someone else can help me on this.

Wait a minute he was the guy who sent me to Vietnam and the father of the "Great Society" or was it the "Great Welfare Society".

I have it in mind that the US in the 1920s, '30s and '40s was essentially a cash economy, and the Post Office would have been a major provider of cash transfer services between distant individuals. While I don't doubt some carriers were armed, I suspect that most of the Post Office models we hear about were counter guns housed in the post offices themselves, or perhaps issued to postmasters or senior counter workers who handled fair amounts of cash and might have been targeted by bad guys.

I beieve there a very few prewar .38/32 Terriers that were issued with square butts; weren't these called Post Office models? Or maybe they were Banker's guns? Because of similar functions, the models kind of blur in my mind.

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David Wilson

I am pretty sure I have seen a Colt 'New Service' Revolver which had been U.S.P.S. property ( and which had a tan Military type Holster with the USPS in an embossed Logo on the Flap ).

There are neighborhoods here in Las Vegas, where the Post Office would no longer deliver Mail to...but it was because of there being too many unpleasant people living in the area of those neighborhoods, rather than because of 'Pitt Bulls'.

One of my co-workers from about 20 years ago was our warehouse manager. He quit one fall to take a part time job as a mail carrier. His management job was pretty good, but he want the better job.. So after Christmas he got dumped by the PO, and came back as his UE compensation ran out. By late spring he came back for our busy season. But each fall for a few years he'd quit again. Finally he quit for good and was accepted full time as a mail carrier.

He came back and had to tell me his gun story. He knew I was a long time dumpster diver. I have no pride. He learned well from me.

His route took him into rural and semi-suburban places. One day he was driving his route and saw gun stocks and barrels sticking out of a garbage can. It was garbage pickup day and he'd just passed the compactor. So he stopped his mail jeep, put the guns in it, and drove off before the garbage men could get them. All the while knowing if he got caught, he could kiss his mail career goodbye. So he gave it some thoughts. No way he could make it home and back to finish his route. So as he rounded a corner, he realized there was a jeep type road off into the woods on one side, with no houses visible. So he pulled in, hid the guns, and started to pull back out. Coming down the road was a local policeman. He stopped and asked if everything was alright.

My buddy said sure, he just had to take a leak! The cop understood, having a shortage of bathrooms himself. So he finished the route, even more scared some kid or someone might find the guns and connect them to him. He did the math, the cop changed shifts about 3:30, so he lingered at work a little longer, then drove back and recovered the hidden guns. His assumption from the names on the mail to the house was the husband died of old age, the woman didn't know what to do with his guns so she pitched them in the garbage. Out of the deal he got some no so terrible guns that he wouldn't have been able to buy otherwise. But he still was pretty scared of getting caught and fired.

I don't have a Post Office model, but if I did, I wouldn't hide it either.

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Dick Burg

The Postal Inspection Service (external crime) and Office of Inspector General (internal crime) are the two law enforcement agencies currently attached to the Postal Service. They are, of course, armed and have investigative and arrest authority.

In years past some regular postal employees were armed in an official capacity while performing certain duties. Mail clerks on the old Railway Post Office and Highway Post Office systems, which were discontinued in the mid-70's, often carried holstered snub nosed .38 special revolvers while sorting mail on the moving trains and buses. Many local post offices were issued revolvers (the ones I saw were .45 ACP) which were kept in the safe and were primarily used for escorting trucks carrying high value Registered Mail articles to the area processing center. This practice was also discontinued in the mid-70's.

Of course, things were different in "the old days". Unofficially, many rural mail carriers had guns in their vehicles. Many of these old retired carriers like to tell stories about favorite hunting spots on their routes. There's even a story about a post office housed in a little country store in the 70's with an FFL...

Everything changed in 1986 with the shooting at the Edmond, OK post office. That was the first of several post office shootings over the next few years and spawned the term "going postal". Since then, possession of a firearm on postal property or on duty by a postal employee is cause for immediate dismissal.

You seem pretty well up on postal stuff. Is there a limit to what a CUSTOMER can carry into a PO and not violate Federal bans on "weapons" in the facility? I am referring to pocket knives, not guns.

I often avoid the USPS, lest a Swiss Army knife be detected and get me in trouble. I pay more to send from a private mail company, but don't have to leave my knife in the car when I go in. And service is usually faster.

S&W 1917 DA 45 Post office Issued Duty US Army + : Curios & Relics at GunBroker.com

I had this publication liberated from me by a forum member a few years ago but, it is very thorough in the care and handling of the guns issued to the P.O. employees as well as giving instructions of how to reload wax bullets and practicing in the back room while on their work break.
Ed

Here's a couple of USPO holsters.

1964 contract, fits 2 inch S&W J frames and Colt D frames.


A reproduction of the same holster, just better made with heavier leather.


Milsco Postal Flap Holster for the 1917 Colt & S&W 5 1/2 inch.

Cheers;
Lefty

The local USPS Postal Inspectors shoot and qualify at a local PD range. If memory serves they were on the same gun contract as the Treasury Department so during the 90's they carried the Sig 228 and I know for a fact they now carry the Sig 229 (I believe it's a 357 Sig).

I've seen pictures of post office employees here in Northern California carrying 1917's back in the day. It seems like it wasn't uncommon at all.

Airline pilots were also armed when carrying mail pouches, with a couple of them reportedly shooting hijackers.

This case has been mention before. The pilot had a Colt .380, but that appears to be personal purchase.

Hero in the cockpit / Pistol served pilot well in '54 10/14/2001 | Archives | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

I have a photo of a row of armed railway clerks, but of course I can't find it now.

...every guy on the mail train carried a revolver....

National Postal Museum: Railway Mail Service

National Postal Museum: Railway Mail Service

US Marines in 1921 guarding a postal shipment.
Good shot of the calvary draw flap holster. What is the web pouch on the far right?

I'm not sure what those web pouches were for either, but they look like they might be for a stick magazine? It also looks like the marine in the middle has his 1903 pointed right at that dope in the center of the photo, he's lucky the bayonet wasn't mounted. LMAO!

Cheers;
Lefty

SG688, I am surprised at you. The pouch on the right is the three pocket pouch{WW1} issued to carry extra 1/2 moon clips. Next time you're at Friday Night take a look at Bill's latest complete rig with mint 1917 S&W. HRichard and I are knocked out over it.

I should have mentioned it in the above post but the Post Office was the first Gov't agency to buy and use Thompson Submachine guns. In fact, the Marines "borrowed" them when they went to fight the "Banana Wars" in central America. Also, the local Post Office here in town had a S&W 38 S&W Terrier and a Colt DS in 32 Colt New Police and a Stevens Dbl. Barrel 12 and a Win. 97 before they turned them in in the late 80's I believe. They use to take them out when they went to the airport to pick up valuable Registerd Mail{CASH} packages. No particular training required.

"In fact, the Marines "borrowed" them when they went to fight the "Banana Wars" in central America."

Yes, they did. Of course, Marines tend to "forget" where they borrowed such things and they seem to not be returned.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

There used to be a web site that (for free!) you could look up by ser# just about any US issue firearm.
Springfield Research,,something like that..

Not every firearm resulted in a record on file, but it wasn't uncommon for a S&W 1917 to come back w/ 'sold to USPS' and a 1920's or 30's date.

The USPO contract holster shown for the 2" bbl by OldFlatfoot was fairly commonly seen for sale around about 25 yrs ago .
Maybe the PO surplused what they had at that time.
They were made in L/H also. I had a few of both.
I don't recall a date on mine,,but..

Thought they were kind of neat,,PO marked and all.
They were very inexpensive at the time.

I have in my collection an I frame .38 Terrier that letters ".38 Pre-Model 32, U.S. Post Office Contract". Letter continues, "Serial Number 59603, was shipped from our factory on February 12, 1951, and delivered to the United States Post Office, Washington, DC. Blued 2" barrel. Came to me with a Tan belt holster marked "Property of U.S. Post Office". So engraved on the back strap.
Don't know how many were in the contact but I have seen one other from this contract. Does require futher research.

Doh! back at you. What's that center weapon look like to you? Easier to see blown up. I don't see a hammer. ....M10?

Are you talking about the Model 12 Winchester shotgun? All of the Marines seem to be carrying 1917 revolvers.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I'm late to this party but a couple of year ago I researched this topic pretty thoroughly and published an article in "The Rampant Colt" (Colt Collectors Association) about it. The vast majority of Colt's production of Banker's Specials went to the Post Office Dept to arm Railway Mail Service agents.

From the inception of U.S. Mail service robbery was a problem. Before electronic funds transfer systems, real money, gold, precious jewelry and other high value property had to move by stagecoach or rail or air. So, stagecoach drivers, airmail pilots and railway mail clerks were all armed. In the late 19th century quite a few Colt single action army revolvers were loaned by the Army to the POD (post office department) but these were returned a few years later for the Spanish-American war. In the early 20th century M1917 revolvers were loaned to the RMS (Railway Mail Service) but these did not stop the loss of over $6 million from 1919-1921. Tunnels were blown up with dynamite, trains were derailed and quite a few postal agents were killed in a number of notorious robberies. In fact, the first motion picture, “The Great Train Robbery,” was about holding up a mail train.

By the end of 1921, the situation had deteriorated to the point that Postmaster General Will H. Hays asked President Harding for help from the U.S. Marine Corps.

Within a few days, 2,200 Marines and 53 officers from Quantico, Virginia, and San Diego, California were spread throughout the country guarding the mail. They usually worked in small detachments of two or three Marines.

S&W did get to sell the RMS a few Terrier's but most of them had Colt Banker's Specials. I've even got a film strip that show the little brief case they were issued with special compartments for various rubber stamps, tags, cards, etc. In the middle of the valise is a special compartment for the revolver, holster and belt they were issued.

Regards,
Kevin Williams

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Given that handguns are forbidden in Post Offices, today it would be a real juggling act for a letter carrier to go armed.

The letter carrier would need to leave the gun in a car parked off of Post Office property, go into the building to sort and load up the mail, exit the building, go back to the car, retrieve the gun, complete the rounds, and then return the gun to the parked car before returing to the Post Office.

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Postal employees are not only prohibited from carrying firearms on postal property, they are prohibited from carrying firearms at any time while on duty. This includes in postal vehicles, on walking routes, and even in personal vehicles used by rural mail carriers while delivering their routes.

Sounds pretty severe to me

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A few months back I was looking for a Speed Six and found this one on Gunbroker. After getting it home I took a couple of pics and posted them on the Ruger forum. One of the members said I should call Ruger and have check the sel#. Yep, it was 1 of 1500 made for the USPS. If the Gunbroker add would have known this and posted it that way I think it would have went for more.

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[QUOTE=SG-688;136290577]..... I don't see a hammer. ....M10?

I think it's a Remington M10 also.
No ejection port and the location (up high from center) of the Remington logo on the butt plate looks correct.
Used as guard, riot and trench guns in WW1.

Looks like it was kind of crowded & cold in there for the long train ride.

What ever,,a neat picture for sure. Thanks for posting it.