Anyone know if it's OK or should I say safe to use 158 Grain +P in this revolver or should I just stick to the standard 158 Grain load or lower. I think I remember reading that the .38 Special CTG was designed to use a 158 grain round and not a good idea to use the +P in an old gun because they weren't rated for it. Then I have read that it is OK to use it. What the heck is the right anwser on this, I'm getting tired or searching on the internet and going in circles. I don't want to damage the the gun in anyway it's to precious.

+P is loaded 3,000 PSI below maximum allowable pressure. It is a marketing myth that it is any sort of hot load. IMO it is a very mild gallery load but for reasons I don't get it generates much hysteria..

S&W's answer has been that if you have a model-marked .38 (like MOD 14 or MOD 15), it should be safe to shoot +P ammunition in it. Your 1951 Pre-14 is about six or seven years too early to have had a model ID stamped on it, but I don't think there were any major changes in metallurgy or engineering in that brief period. I would think it would be safe to shoot with +P, which as a prominent forum member may be along shortly to remind us, is a much lower pressure round than most people think it is. Still, I'm not sure why anyone would use +P ammo as a standard load in any revolver except one devoted exclusively to defensive purposes, though occasional sessions with the zippier loads would be understandable.

In general, I shoot 148 gr wadcutter match ammo in my classic .38s just because it behaves so well and is such a low-stress round. If I think a more powerful cartridge is warranted by the situation, that's why I have a couple of large frame .357s and some .44s.

Oops, the "prominent forum member" got his answer in a minute before I did!

__________________
David Wilson

has been covered on this forum many times, but never settled. You might want to do a forum search on the subject and see what comes up.

But I will summarize. You are almost certainly not going to blow your revolver up using +p, but you might accelerate some wear and tear issues.

I don't do it. I have a pristine 1948 k38. If I needed to I wouldn't be scared but, I have other guns that are more suited for that.

I have used +P ammo in my M&P 38 4 inch production 1954. I have not had any problems with the revolver. I have read and done research on the whole +P subject and agree with SP that +P today is what standard pressure was before 1972. The velocity on standard ammo back then was around 850 to 900 fps. I believe this is out of a 4 inch revolver. Most of todays +P ammo is rated at the same velocity. Whether to use +P in a older S&W revolver is strictly a personal decision. At the range I use the standard reloaded range ammo. Its a 158 gr round much like the average standard pressure round today with velocity at 750 fps. Reason, they are cheap to use and I don't reload. But I do put through from time to time a box or two of Remingtons LSWCHP 158gr +P. Again the velocity is around 850 to 900.
Bottom line: In my opinion I don't see a issue with you shooting +P through your pre-14 from time to time.
regards,
Howard

WHY????? The pre M14 K38 Masterpiece is a hand made tool for match and target shooting. If you want more power I would suggest you buy a M19 or M66 or one of the L frame revolvers and shoot magnums. I have 5 pre M14's and one M14 and the hottest loads I shoot out of them and my pre 10's is the 158 gr. Police rounds. Round nose and wad cutters.My opinion. Big Larry

As others have said, modern +P is no hotter than some of the early police loads. They are lighter than the old .38-44 Heavy Dutyloads or the .38 Special HS (High Speed). Shoot all the +P you want. You won't hurt that pre-14 or any other Smith made after WW1.

__________________
Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

I think Big Larry said it best. That revolver was specially built as a target revolver. You can probably plow a field with a thoroughbred, but the horses bred for that job will probably do it better, and the thoroughbred will win a race for you. Is that confusing enough for you?

Froggie

PS My 1951 vintage K-38 is a bit of a safe queen, but if I were going to shoot her, she would dine on HBWCs and vintage Bullseye powder, probably served in polished brass!

Well supposedly a .38 Special+P 158gr LSWCHP is regarded as one of the most popular and recomended rounds to use for Defensive duty. It's not that I want to use them, I was just asking if it was really safe to use this round in a K-38 Masterpiece because it is a +P round.

I have no problem with sticking with a standard 158gr or lower load. Besides it's been said that all fixedsight .38s are regulated at the factory to shoot accurately with 158 grain bullets, and this was the weight of the long-time standard American and Canadian police load right or wrong.

I fail to understand the fascination with using plus p ammo in older guns. It has been shown a gazillion times that they can stand up to it's useage....but I ask the same age old question. Why?

What do you REALLY gain in the use of plus p ammo?

Randy

Mostly right, but since the k38's have adjustable sights, that's not an issue for them.

I'm also in the camp of "you probably can safely shoot +P loads, but WHY?", and I practice what I preach, with all three of my K38/Model 14's.

True but who wants to have to keep dialing their sights in everytime you change ammo type to be accurate. I'd rather stay put once it's set up. Just saying!

I have a circa 1950 K-38 that l haven't shot yet. It's not a safe queen... I just haven't had a chance to work with it at the range. My intention is to find the best factory load for accuracy and then shoot just that round. I know... it's a tough job but somebody's gotta do it. I have no interest in shooting any +P ammo - just my personal preference.

__________________
Isaiah 55:8-9
Phil. 4:13

Best Solution would be to sell me yhe K 38 . I may have a 66 that you can shoot +P in if you want.

Earl

148 grain full wadcutters. They make nice round holes in paper.

__________________
Even older, even crankier....

To those asking "why?" I respond "why not?"

Again, saying "why shoot +P ammo" is continuing to buy the fallacy that it is in some way a high performance load. It is not.

Here ya go... again. My well-worn 1942 Victory Model through which I ran 500 factory +Ps (125@925... WOW! What a powerhouse load!) as well as 600 of my own +P+s (same 125 at a clocked 1150). Results? Exactly as I anticipated. No ill effects whatsoever.

Shooters today may not realize that many cops and others routinely carried the K38 Masterpiece as a duty weapon back in the 1950s and 1960s. The K38M is no weaker or temperamental than the Combat Masterpiece or the M&P. Why all the concern for a sturdy gun like the K38 with underpowered ammo like +P?

I still don't get it.

This is kind of like shooting CCI Stingers in a fine target rifle like a M52 Winchester. No, it won't hurt the rifle, have you ever seen that beefy receiver? I am quite sure when the engineers developed that rifle, it was designed for target loads as that is what the rifle was meant to shoot. Now, some 50 years later, we have varmint hunters using that high quality rifle for shooting helpless little critters. I am quite sure the rifle will not be harmed in any way, but I would not put so much faith in shooting hot loads from a 50 year old and probably collectable revolver. Just like shooting an old shotgun with a twist steel bbl. You may get 1,000 rds of smokeless through it, and one day you get blinded when it finally lets go. There is simply no way I will ever do this. Big Larry

A Damascus barrel shotgun is obviously unsafe with modern ammo and has no bearing on the +P in strong S&W revolvers discussion.

Obviously to some and to others who are not gun collectors, the danger is real. Shooting one with modern smokeless power may be akin to shooting a + P in an old revolver. You go ahead and do what you want with your guns, but I will never put a +P through a target revolver. Makes no sense to me. Want more power, get a M29. Big Larry

Again, +P is not loaded to maximum allowable pressure, let alone higher. You apparently worry about +P wearing or damaging a gun but this is nonsense. Every 38 revolver is built to use 21,500 PSI ammo. Factory +P is loaded to 18,500 PSI. How does this pose a threat to any gun? All of your concerns regarding +P are based on a fallacy. Factory +P is actually underloaded, not overloaded.

Again, you bring apples into a discussion of oranges. What does a 44 Magnum have to do with the 38 Special?

Of course you are free to do as you please with your guns. But when you espouse your opinion in an open forum you invite debate. Lord knows I get disagreement when I express my opinion (which is actually based on considerable research rather than just a gut feeling or hearsay).

OK fine. Lets just agree to disagree. You do your thing and I will do mine. I rarely shoot my collectables in any event. Lets just drop it here. Big Larry

Again, +P is not loaded to maximum allowable pressure, let alone higher. You apparently worry about +P wearing or damaging a gun but this is nonsense. Every 38 revolver is built to use 21,500 PSI ammo. Factory +P is loaded to 18,500 PSI.

SaxonPig; I find this statement you made very interesting. I don't think you made this up but were on earth do you get this information. How is it your the only one who knows these facts. If this is true it should be documented somewere and available to anyone interested in knowing these facts. Are you willing to give up your source of info. I personally would like to see these specs for myself rather than rely on it by here say only. I'm not saying your right or wrong and it seems your the only one who is able to produce numbers to support your statement. I guess you could say I'd like a second opinon on this because if you can safely use +P ammo in older K-38 models why the heck doesn't everyone agree on this. Some say it's ok and some say no way. I just want to know the true facts then I can do what ever I want within these safe guidelines.

The 38 Special is a fine old cartridge which has been turned out to pasture by the ammo manufacturers. Back in the 70's of the last century there was a company called HI-VEL which pioneered the idea of light hollow point bullets at high velocities to obtain maximum stopping power. I obtained a couple of boxes of this 125 gr. ammo just before I left California for the last time.

I also purchased a S&W K-38, ser. no. 100xxx just before we left for good, I think built in 1950. An old friend had to get rid of his daddy's target pistol because his PC wife could not stand to have it in the house. It was/is well worn but still functional, and a new hand brought the timing back in order soon after the move.

After we got settled in our new home in Nevada, I had some time to try out the new/ old K-38 and my only other center fire revolver at the time, a Ruger Security Six. The result: the old K-38 digested over 100 of my cast bullet hand loads and then a box and a half of the Super-Vel ammo. Wow I was impressed with the results on water jug targets and on another day some water melons. I did not have access to a chronograph back in those days but that ammo was HOT. Shortly after I traded off the Ruger for another S&W, another story some time.

The old K-38 has been traded off, then traded back and it has had a steady diet of 150 gr. cast bullets, or boolits, over 5.0 gr, sometimes 5.5 gr. of Unique and sometimes Herco for over thirty years. With the new fangled JHP 125 gr. bullets, enough Unique or Herco to get up around 1100 - 1150 fps. That old gun has been on many trips into the Nevada outback, camping, hunting and fishing. It still locks up tight, timing is right on and the trigger pull is light,smooth and predictable. Now when I shoot a 38, it is mostly in a nice Model 15 4", a little newer and handier to carry.

Today's standard and so called plus P ammo, is only there to sell first the wonder nines and now the plastic 40's IMHO only.

If that old K-38 was my only handgun, I would still be well armed.

My best regards, Nevada Duke

__________________
old bird

Roadhog95- This info is readily available from SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) and from the ammo manufacturers. All one need do is look, and that's what I have done rather than rely on gossip and misinformation.

"I rarely shoot my collectables in any event."

There's the problem right there. I don't own any collectibles. I own guns... that I use as intended.

One reason you don't see a lot of others jumping in and telling you the same thing that SaxonPig has tried to explain is because we see this same debate pop-up from people (new to revolvers or new to this forum) about every 2 weeks and most folks get tired of explaining that you can safely shoot +P ammo in a K-38, Model 10, Model 36, ... etc, etc, ..........SaxonPig has tried to give you the correct information!!!

Don

__________________
Laus Deo! <><

Thanks for that, I will look into this and see if I can make some headway. I to would rather not rely on gossip and misinformation either. Thank you sir!

Try this.


Shooting with Hobie

SaxonPig, thank you for that link I found it very informative and I think everyone should read it. I wasnt trying to blow you off after your last post, I've just been very busy and have spent a good amount of time doing research on this subject. I've done a lot of reading lately trying to get a handle on all these numbers and for the life of me I can't understand why anyone would not use +P ammo if the pressure rating is much lower than the standard rating set for a .38 special which is 21,500 PSI. Ammo today is much milder than what it was when these guns were manufactured. So if it was fine to use it then, why is it bad now?
I asked the person working at one of the local gun shops if I could use +P ammo in my K-38 and he said if it wasn't marked +P on the gun then I couldn't use it. Obviously he hasn't got a clue what he was talking about.
I'm still not sure I understand how the numbers work. If a round is loaded with less grain, how can it have a higher velocity than a round with more grain? How or what gives it a +P rating. Any feedback on this would be a big help.

SaxonPig is generally right on about everything he writes!

BTW, welcome to the forum roadhog96. There are some very, very heavyweight S&W collectors and long-time experts on this forum . . . along with the REST of us who make this THE place on the internet to learn about Smith's vintage products that so many of us love so much.

LET ME GO ABOUT ANSWERING YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION from a slightly different angle . . .

When I take my smiths out to the range and practice, I learned a long time ago that it was easier on the shooter (me) if I loaded my practice ammo "light." Less jolt on the wrists, joints, etc. I shot a lot of handgun matches (and many more times the practice sessions) for years and this really paid off for me, as I handloaded my own on the low end on purpose!

A second benefit of reduced recoil is that the shooter is much less prone to develop an accuracy-killing "flinch!" This all paid off with sharper skills come match time!

Oh yeah . . . the THIRD benefit to me was this . . . that when I was firing thousands of rounds through my various handguns in practice . . . the lighter loads prevented my firearms from wearing out too!

Heck, to an active competitor the gun itself is the CHEAP part of the sport. Running 250-1,000 rounds a week through those guns was the costly part!

TODAY
I only shoot occasional area matches for fun today and don't practice too much, but I still prefer to "load light" in practice. I do shoot some hot stuff of course from time to time but do not see any need to wear out myself or my guns with unnecessary stuff.

For hunting, and for self defense, it is a different matter. I use very heavy bullets and hot velocity in my S&W .44 Magnum (M29-5 w/6" barrel), Federal's "CastCore" 300 grain hardcast flat-point premium hunting ammunition.

Heck, in self defense and big game hunting situations you'll never "feel" the stiff recoil at all, even with a 300 grain bullet!!!


FULL CIRCLE . . .

Is that wimpy, modern-day +P stuff safe in my nice 1950-made M&P?

ALL DAY LONG . . . but again, echoing what others have said, "why shoot the expensive hot stuff in practice?"

And yes, I've shot 158 grain LSWC-HP +p (original FBI spec) in this revolver no problem. In practice I'm much more favorable to handloaded 148 grain flat-point lead wadcutters at lazy velocities . . . the most accurate and fun-to-shoot .38 Special load ever invented!!!

HERE'S MY 1950-made M&P . . .


Hope this helps,

Tom

PS: I took this old gun (one year older than me) to an area Steel Match last fall, and used it with jacketed store-bought ammo to beat the times of every auto shooter AND revolver shooter there! Heck, I wanted to celebrate turning 60 . . . and use an "ancient" a 60 year old gun to see if both of us were still up to the task. We were! A sixty year old M&P in good shape is still an incredible weapon!!!

Under the pressure of the clock, they simply couldn't shoot MISS enough to beat me! Nice to know I can still do it too against the locals!

PPS: The second fastest time was ALSO a revolver shooter.

Tom, thanks for that, much appreciated. I was born in 1951 and apparently my K-38 Materpiece was born the same year, so the two things that make it very special to me is we not only celerbrate the same birthday but that it was my father inlaws police revolver that he carried on his job.

I agree with you on using the light loads for practice shooting, it makes a lot of sense. The only reason I was concerned about using +P ammo is mainly for personal defense ammo which is generally a +P Hollow Point load. As you know Hollow Point ammo need high velocity to work properly and I would like to get some practice time with +P defense ammo to get to know how the gun would react with it and at the same time sharpen my skills using it in the event that someday I might be in a position to have to use it. Nothing worst than being caught in a position for the first time with no experience or knowledge about what your about to get yourself into. I am confident now that it is safe to use the +P without causing any harm to the revolver. It would not be something that would be a regular diet for the old Masterpiece.

By the way is that the original finish on your revolver it looks incredible. Yours is the first one that I've seen from 1950 that hasn't been Blued, very nice.

Hi,

Yes, the finish is original. Enjoy your M&P. I always read that everyone needed at least one and they were right!

BTW, when using it in the match, I added a Tyler T-grip to it so there was no way it would torque slightly out of perfect alignment in my hand when shooting fast multiple double action shots during the match.

Shooting a match will show a person really fast if the gun fits their hand perfectly. If it doesn't you'll have a long, embarrassing day but . . . for me . . . all my S&W revolvers fit my hand perfectly. I can't say that about some high-cap automatics.

T.

I hate to see a good unwinnable discussion drift to a close, so let me fan the embers with a thought experiment.

Two mid-century .38s are available for purchase. They are identical in every respect except that one has been fired thousands of times with a steady diet of low-speed 148 gr wadcutter match ammo, and the other one has been fired the same number of times with +P ammo or its exact equivalent. Assuming that you are driven by a policy of self-interest and maximum expected satisfaction with a current investment, which one would you buy?

I have the same ankles, knees and hip joints now that I did when I weighed 60 pounds less half a century ago. My joints are still working fairly well, thank heavens, but I can't help thinking that arithmetic alone says they would be in even better shape now if they had not had to carry the extra step-tons all those years when I was heavier than I needed to be.

I don't expect +P ammo to blow up a revolver, and I realize that +P rounds are warm rather than hot compared to standard loads. But I do believe that accumulated minor stress from a constant diet of +P rounds will have some kind of cumulative wear and tear on a gun that a steady diet of lighter loads would not produce.

__________________
David Wilson

Without question I would take the one that hasn't been beaten to death, same goes for anything else that I buy used. I would try to get the one that has the least amount of wear and tear.

What would have happened if say the ammo companies had never stopped producing ammo the way it was made years ago. And you were in the same scenario, but these two revolvers lived and thrived on that ammo back then. You wouldn't think twice about it, but you would probably take the one that looked the nicest seeing how they both used the only type of ammo that was available.

If the +P ammo today is milder than than what these guns started out with then using +P ammo should not be creating the same stress on these revolvers that they were designed to withstand back then. If you can literally shake the empty cases out of the cylinder without using the extractor, I wouldn't think there's to much pressure being produced.

Like I said earlier, I only asked if it was safe to use because just about all the personal defense ammo is rated +P and there's way to much controversy on this subject. Hollow Points need to be high volicty to work properally.

I'm new to handguns and I have a lot to learn and I admit it. I just bought my first box of ammo and guess what I bought, Federal .38 Special 158 grain LRN with a muzzle velocity of 770 FPS. I'll probably try some FMJ rounds next time but I'm not looking to beat this gun up, I just want to get to know it and appreciated it for what it is.

I will try the +P defense ammo to get a feel for how the gun reacts to it. I do not intend on using +P ammo as a primary diet.