2 inch, Pre-war M&P observation

pace40 · #1 02-16-2012, 10:42 AM

As I compile information on this variant, I have come to notice an extremely high percentage being attributable to law enforcement or municipal use. In the meager collection I have assembled, agency use is at 50%. In a larger database of shipments known to me so far, that ratio approaches 60%.

A quick snapshot below...enjoy.

______________________________

Most recently noted in another thread is Sheriff Long's revolver...

From a while back, Deputy Sheriff Roger Rogers' square butt nickel. The date inscribed, Jan 3rd, 1939 was the date of his appointment ...

A more recent addition from Harvey, Illinois...

Heck...even ol Bubba's Special was a municipal shipment, y'all remember Bubba...

Just another tidbit of obscure information to take up collector's brain cell space

PuertoRican · #2 02-16-2012, 11:02 AM

Those are real beauties.

Malysh · #3 02-16-2012, 11:16 AM

Excellent post, pictures, and observations.
Thanks very much, pace40!

DCWilson · #4 02-16-2012, 11:33 AM

I feel the envy monster stirring in my heart. What a great collection of prewar snubs!

That last gun is the kind you'd expect to see in the sheriff's pocket in an artsy culture-laden town like Ashland.

Chief Roll's gun is a beauty. Do you know if it shipped with the hard rubber grips?

Nice nice nice.

ADDENDUM: Actually, now that I look twice, I see the Long gun has hard rubber stocks as well. Only the Rogers gun has what look like contemporary wooden stocks. I don't quite understand the stocks on the Ashland specimen -- wood, service style, but with rounded corners on the checking field. Early postwar?

linde · #5 02-16-2012, 11:53 AM

Outstanding . . . I especially like the A. E. Roll example

Thanks for sharing!

Russ

pace40 · #6 02-16-2012, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCWilson

I feel the envy monster stirring in my heart. What a great collection of prewar snubs!

That last gun is the kind you'd expect to see in the sheriff's pocket in an artsy culture-laden town like Ashland.

Chief Roll's gun is a beauty. Do you know if it shipped with the hard rubber grips?

Nice nice nice.

ADDENDUM: Actually, now that I look twice, I see the Long gun has hard rubber stocks as well. Only the Rogers gun has what look like contemporary wooden stocks. I don't quite understand the stocks on the Ashland specimen -- wood, service style, but with rounded corners on the checking field. Early postwar?

Hi David

Chief Roll's did ship with hard rubber grips. This gun was restored by the previous owner, but, since these things are so hard to come by, I bought it.

The Ashland gun was actually received with magnas on it.( See “Pre Model 10 Engraved Revolver") Threw these on to at least have the right shape. Period correct are on the way (or maybe pearls

).

gametime · #7 02-17-2012, 01:21 AM

Beautiful guns there Pace... and shooters too! I have one that could be a twin to your Mcfarlan gun that I took out a few months back and was very surprised how well it handled.
Any idea at what serial # they started at? I believe the ashland gun is about the earliest serial # I've seen.

Regards,
Manuel

Oyeboteb · #8 02-17-2012, 01:34 AM

Mine had Lettered as shipping April 11, 1938, to Hamilton PD, Hamilton Indiana ( if memory serve )...and, is a round Butt, Blue, Black HR Stocks.

Indeed, I imagine Detectives would have been the major Market at that time, especially fellows who's hands were just a little large for the Colt Detective Special...and or who prefered a little faster recoil recovery with stout Cartridges than the smaller and somewhat lighter DS would have provided.

pace40 · #9 02-17-2012, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gametime

Beautiful guns there Pace... and shooters too! I have one that could be a twin to your Mcfarlan gun that I took out a few months back and was very surprised how well it handled.
Any idea at what serial # they started at? I believe the ashland gun is about the earliest serial # I've seen.

Regards,
Manuel

The earliest S/N I have recorded is the Ashland gun. Interestly, I have two guns in the database with 626xxx serial numbers that shipped in the summer of 1934, over a year earlier than the 597xxx Ashland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

Mine had Lettered as shipping April 11, 1938, to Hamilton PD, Hamilton Indiana ( if memory serve )...and, is a round Butt, Blue, Black HR Stocks.

Indeed, I imagine Detectives would have been the major Market at that time, especially fellows who's hands were just a little large for the Colt Detective Special...and or who prefered a little faster recoil recovery with stout Cartridges than the smaller and somewhat lighter DS would have provided.

I would love to include your gun in the database if you would be kind enough to PM me the serial number. I don't record any owner info, just the shipping information and configuration. Same with yours, Manuel.

gametime · #10 02-17-2012, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pace40

The earliest S/N I have recorded is the Ashland gun. Interestly, I have two guns in the database with 626xxx serial numbers that shipped in the summer of 1934, over a year earlier than the 597xxx Ashland.

I would love to include your gun in the database if you would be kind enough to PM me the serial number. I don't record any owner info, just the shipping information and configuration. Same with yours, Manuel.

I'd be nice to know what happened there for sure! Maybe the Historical Society docs would help clarify what may have occurred?

Mine is 612672, I'll send shipping info as soon as letter arrives.

Regards

pace40 · #11 02-17-2012, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gametime

I'd be nice to know what happened there for sure! Maybe the Historical Society docs would help clarify what may have occurred?

Mine is 612672, I'll send shipping info as soon as letter arrives.

Regards

Thanks, Manuel

i've got a request in to the foundation on a few of these. We'll see what turns up.

Pote · #12 02-17-2012, 11:31 AM

awesome pistols...I particularly like the SS.

Funny how the large print in the newspaper articles screams "Vigilante" and then the caption reads how officers were dispatched to watch over a part of town struck by a tornado where people where doing some plundering in the aftermath....they were there to make sure no one did any other pilfering...then it reads "to date, two BOYS have been caught..." for stealing tires off of cars....now that's a Vigilante story!!!

thanks for sharing...great history on those!

j38 · #13 02-19-2012, 12:18 AM

Those RB M&P's are as good looking as they are uncommon. I'd love to find one one day myself. Thanks for the post & great pictures,

Jerry

Mitch_D · #14 02-19-2012, 03:59 PM

I finally found time to take a few photos of my 2" M&P...

626366 Shipped 6/2/1934 to Western Metal Supply Co., San Diego, CA. Two guns in the shipment, billed at $19.07/ each.

I believe the stocks to be too early to be original to the gun, but they have been on it a long time, fit it perfectly, and are beautiful.

It doesn't look like this was a law enforcement gun, but quite probably brought in for "private security" in some form. San Diego in 1934 had all of the makings of what made Raymond Chandler's stories so intense.

Please excuse my cowboy lighting and photo skills.

Mitch

H Richard · #15 02-19-2012, 04:31 PM

This is not a pre-wr, but a 1957 vintage 4 screw, but with the round front sight. Would this be considered a Transition?

Malysh · #16 02-19-2012, 05:17 PM

Not with the short action, 4 line address, and the last pattern hammer.

Oyeboteb · #17 02-22-2012, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pace40

I would love to include your gun in the database if you would be kind enough to PM me the serial number. I don't record any owner info, just the shipping information and configuration. Same with yours, Manuel.

Be happy to...will have to wait till I can dig it up...packed away now from having recently moved.

Here's an image of it snapped the day I got it -

Lettered as having shipped with the Black HR Stocks.

The old Grip-Adaptor was pretty chipped up and I gently took it off and kept it aside. Looks a lot better without it I think, anyway...such sweet lines these had/have!

Oyeboteb · #18 02-28-2012, 07:59 PM

Just got one, ( pre-War, 2 inch, 'M&P', sq butt ) images and details later...might not be real though...

Jim NNN · #19 02-28-2012, 09:59 PM

Wow, what fantastic revolvers. I just recently acquired a post war 5 screw more on the order of H Richard's gun. All the pictures are great, and of great interest to me.

Pace40's collection is really something. Don't think I could be dedicated enough to get to that level of presentation, but I'm sure glad there are people who do!

Oyeboteb · #20 02-29-2012, 12:15 AM

Sorry my images are sub-par ( as usual )...always Night it seems, and, glary indoor Lights.

Anyway, single line 'Made in USA' on right side or lower frame...what looks like Factory Nickel to me, all edges and details and texts look factory-crisp...no washed out Screw holes or wavyness anywhere...Blued Ejector Star, old brownish Patina color with traces of Case Hardening on the Hammer and Trigger ( both have the patent info on their backs ).

Small S&W Logo on left side of Frame.

Ejector Rod 'knob' shows pliers-type damage to the Checkering.

Serial Number of Butt, Cylinder Face, and, underside of the Ejector Star all match.

Underside of Barrel is blank and appears to have never had any Numerals stamped in it, but for a letter N, close to the detent Lug.

Tiny letter N on the side of the Butt close to the Stock indexing Pin.

And, on the other side of the inside or would be under the Stocks Butt area in tiny font, is stamped 759.

What do we make of this?

Could it be a factory re-barrel?

A non-factory re-barrel?

A factory re-finish of what began as a Blue Gun, but which was still in high condition and hence, had little buffing? Done in July 1959?

Or..?

Could it be a pre-war 2 Inch?

Hondo44 · #21 02-29-2012, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

Serial Number of Butt, Cylinder Face, and, underside of the Ejector Star all match.

Underside of Barrel is blank and appears to have never had any Numerals stamped in it, but for a letter N, close to the detent Lug.
N IS FOR NICKEL ORIGINAL FINISH.

Tiny letter N on the side of the Butt close to the Stock indexing Pin.
SAME.

And, on the other side of the inside or would be under the Stocks Butt area in tiny font, is stamped 759.
THE 759 WILL PROBABLY MATCH A NUMBER IN THE YOKE OR INSIDE OF THE SIDEPLATE. CAN'T TELL WHICH SIDE IS THE "OTHER SIDE".

What do we make of this?
NOT A REWORK DATE W/O A DOT BETWEEN MON AND YEAR AND MUST BE ON THE LEFT SIDE OF GRIP FRAME. WITHOUT A STAR IN FRONT OF THE BUTT SERIAL NUMBER, IT HASN'T BEEN BACK TO THE FACTORY.

Could it be a factory re-barrel?
NOT LIKELY.

A non-factory re-barrel?
LIKELY.

A factory re-finish of what began as a Blue Gun, but which was still in high condition and hence, had little buffing? Done in July 1959?
NO.

Or..?
IT'S ORIGINALLY A NICKEL GUN AND I AGREE WITH YOU, I DON'T THINK IT'S BEEN RE-FINISHED.

Could it be a pre-war 2 Inch?
YES, # 700,000 WAS REACHED BY '42 AND POST WAR WOULD HAVE AN S or C PREFIX TO SERIAL NUMBER. POST WAR STOCKS THOUGH.

Nice old gun!

Oyeboteb · #22 02-29-2012, 06:11 AM

Thanks Hondo44!

Stocks have no Numerals stamped in them, and, did not look quite right for me...thanks for pointing out they are Post War, I thought they might be.

LOBO · #23 02-29-2012, 11:38 PM

This is a post war M&P that I have been trying to find out some info on after receiving the factory letter. I'm wondering if it may have LEO ties.

xray97 · #24 02-29-2012, 11:53 PM

Very interesting thread and beautiful guns guys!

Hondo44 · #25 03-01-2012, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOBO

This is a post war M&P that I have been trying to find out some info on after receiving the factory letter. I'm wondering if it may have LEO ties.

The pre war one line "Made In USA" stamping sure signifies it's an early post war gun as the letter says. But the stock medallions are post war nickel over brass, not silver per the letter, which are pre war and flat, (unless the stock serial # doesn't match the gun.) Some pre war silver medallions were used up after the war.

Could very well have LEO ties having been ordered by the County, but it's in such beautiful condition, could have been for a court baliff, truant officer, etc., etc, rather than a regular duty gun..

It's gorgeous!

semperfi71 · #26 03-01-2012, 12:36 AM

Nice Pre and Post-Wars. I just assisted a friend in sending one to Pennsylvania...(wink).

Oyeboteb · #27 03-01-2012, 01:32 AM

What year would 562359 be assocciated with?

I do not have access to my S&W Books presently...

Hondo44 · #28 03-01-2012, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

What year would 562359 be assocciated with?

I do not have access to my S&W Books presently...

1915 - 1942 241704 - 700000. Just noticed that yours has a post war thumbpiece. 2" sq butts are considered scarce. But your original barrel may have been longer.

Oyeboteb · #29 03-01-2012, 04:57 AM

Guessing by Lettered shipping dates posted for other M&Ps, and how mixed up they tended to be sometimes, would 1934 - 1935 be about right, for Serial Number 562359?

Thanks for the Thumb-Piece mention there Jim!

I was not aware of that, and, I had to go dig out some pre-War M&Ps to compare them, in order to see the difference.

I learned something new today!

Hondo44 · #30 03-01-2012, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

Hi Jim,
How does one tell a pre-War from a post-War Thumb Piece?

Notice the thumbpieces on the pre war guns above. Your gun has the 4th style shown below.

Here's the pre war thumbpiece, the 'double hourglass' or double 'pinch' around screw hole with undercut checkered pad; left overs also used on very early post war guns:

2nd style, and first new post war thumblatch, still has the double 'pinch' but without relief cut under checkered pad.

The 3rd style was a single hourglass with a single 'pinch' in front of the screw hole like a #2 and from the center of the screw to the rear it's like a #4.

4th style (which was the first style Chief Special latch and on I and J frames it's the immediate pre flat latch style and post 1966 style):

On I and J frames, the 4th style was re-introduced after '66 for several years in both blue and stainless until the modern style took over with the lower half shaved off. When the 'classics series' was produced an exact copy of the pre-war style was introduced on them but was an MIM cast part.

LOBO · #31 03-06-2012, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

The pre war one line "Made In USA" stamping sure signifies it's an early post war gun as the letter says. But the stock medallions are post war nickel over brass, not silver per the letter, which are pre war and flat, (unless the stock serial # doesn't match the gun.) Some pre war silver medallions were used up after the war.

Could very well have LEO ties having been ordered by the County, but it's in such beautiful condition, could have been for a court baliff, truant officer, etc., etc, rather than a regular duty gun..

It's gorgeous!

Thank you! Yes, the grips are numbered to the gun.

DCWilson · #32 03-06-2012, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

What year would 562359 be assocciated with?

I have 544932 from December 1927 and 649956 from June 1935. I would think your frame was produced/shipped around 1928-29. (My guns are longer-barrel M&Ps, not snubs.)

The late '20s are too early for a two-inch K-frame, I believe, so I think the gun has been rebarreled. The 759 may indeed point to a factory return date. If the barrel had been replaced in a prewar or early postwar return to the factory, I would expect to see the serial number on the barrel flat, as factory policy was to transfer numbers to new parts through those periods. Later, replacement parts were simply added without reserialization, marked perhaps only with a symbol, or an S for Service Department.

Possibly the postwar stocks were applied to the revolver when it went back for the replacement barrel. I imagine the gun was nickeled at that time as well.

There may be other interpretations, but that's what runs through my brain as I sit here in the dark small hours on the west coast.

pace40 · #33 03-06-2012, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

Guessing by Lettered shipping dates posted for other M&Ps, and how mixed up they tended to be sometimes, would 1934 - 1935 be about right, for Serial Number 562359?

Thanks for the Thumb-Piece mention there Jim!

I was not aware of that, and, I had to go dig out some pre-War M&Ps to compare them, in order to see the difference.

I learned something new today!

Need to be very careful extrapolating shipping dates from serial numbers in this range, especially on 2 inch guns. The lowest s/n I have documented on a 2 inch thus far, 597812 shipped in Sept. 1935. 626261 shipped in August 1934, and 625809 did not ship until Sept. 1946. If yours shipped as a 2 inch, it would be the earliest s/n in my data so far. The lack of s/n on the barrel is certainly suspect though it does show an "N" to match the finish designation. Probably a rebarrel but, if it were mine, I would letter it to know for sure... but then again, 2 inch prewar M&Ps is all I do right now.

pace40 · #34 03-06-2012, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semperfi71

Nice Pre and Post-Wars. I just assisted a friend in sending one to Pennsylvania...(wink).

And a fine one it is...

***********************

Jim....Great writeup on the thumbpieces!

roaddog28 · #35 03-06-2012, 10:14 AM

Great revolvers guys. I have a 36 no dash with the 1 7/8 inch barrel. I am in the process of refinishing the revolver. Has some rust problems from the previous owner who did not take care of the revolver.
Regards,
Howard

Oyeboteb · #36 03-08-2012, 12:14 AM

Thank you Jim for the Photo series on the Cylinder Release Thumb-Piece evolution. it is very good to have been made aware of this.

I went on to the G'Broker and found a pre-war Nickel one and it will be on it's way shortly, so that will then correct that detail as much as possible anyway.

Now that I know the difference, the wrong one seems to stick out like a sore Thumb!

I need a Nickel Cylinder Release Thumb-piece for a 1946 Terrier, also, in case anyone has one rattling around in one of those shelf worn Cigar Boxes of old orphan S&W parts???

Oyeboteb · #37 03-08-2012, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCWilson

I have 544932 from December 1927 and 649956 from June 1935. I would think your frame was produced/shipped around 1928-29. (My guns are longer-barrel M&Ps, not snubs.)

Oh my, so, earlier than I had thought.

I bought the little M&P because I liked it, even though of course I was secretly hoping ( well, maybe not so secretely afterall, ) that it could be an early factory 2 inch, but I was not familiar enough with the Serialing range to know more narrowly.

The price was easy going and I am delighted with it, regardless, so, all's well there.

I will get some old aftermarket Mother of Peral Stocks for it I think.

Quote:

The late '20s are too early for a two-inch K-frame, I believe, so I think the gun has been rebarreled. The 759 may indeed point to a factory return date. If the barrel had been replaced in a prewar or early postwar return to the factory, I would expect to see the serial number on the barrel flat, as factory policy was to transfer numbers to new parts through those periods. Later, replacement parts were simply added without reserialization, marked perhaps only with a symbol, or an S for Service Department.

Possibly the postwar stocks were applied to the revolver when it went back for the replacement barrel. I imagine the gun was nickeled at that time as well.

There may be other interpretations, but that's what runs through my brain as I sit here in the dark small hours on the west coast.

Thanks...

It is definitely unclear, anyway, as to what to make of it! Other than, as we all seem to note, that it had been re-Barreled, and, possibly by S&W at a later time/decade, using an earlier type Barrel, or, done privately, and, who knows when.

Just for the heck of it, I might just get it Lettered, and, see what the S&W Records have to say about it.

If S&W had done the re-barreling, ( pr Plated an previously Blue Revoler with Nickel ) would that tend to show in the records they access when doing a 'Letter'?

Oyeboteb · #38 03-08-2012, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pace40

Need to be very careful extrapolating shipping dates from serial numbers in this range, especially on 2 inch guns. The lowest s/n I have documented on a 2 inch thus far, 597812 shipped in Sept. 1935. 626261 shipped in August 1934, and 625809 did not ship until Sept. 1946. If yours shipped as a 2 inch, it would be the earliest s/n in my data so far. The lack of s/n on the barrel is certainly suspect though it does show an "N" to match the finish designation. Probably a rebarrel but, if it were mine, I would letter it to know for sure... but then again, 2 inch prewar M&Ps is all I do right now.

Interesting!

I will of course report back to the Thread if or when I 'Letter' it, and I think I just might Letter it, too, so...stay tuned...

DCWilson · #39 03-08-2012, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

If S&W had done the re-barreling, would that tend to show in the records they access when doing a 'Letter'?

Unfortunately, no. The letter will tell you how it was configured when it left the factory and where it was shipped, but nothing beyond that.

There may be company records of a service return, but only 1932-1941 records have been digitized and made available for computer searches. The records are a project of the S&W Historical Foundation. If the gun did go back in 1959, there may be a record of its return for service. But until the records of that year are digitized, there is no realistic hope of finding out more.

It occurs to me that the half-round front sight on your gun may point to manufacture before the mid-1950s. I'm not sure how I would square that with the possible July '59 return.

Oyeboteb · #40 03-08-2012, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCWilson

Unfortunately, no. The letter will tell you how it was configured when it left the factory and where it was shipped, but nothing beyond that.

There may be company records of a service return, but only 1932-1941 records have been digitized and made available for computer searches. The records are a project of the S&W Historical Foundation. If the gun did go back in 1959, there may be a record of its return for service. But until the records of that year are digitized, there is no realistic hope of finding out more.

Ahhh...oh well...

Quote:

It occurs to me that the half-round front sight on your gun may point to manufacture before the mid-1950s. I'm not sure how I would square that with the possible July '59 return.

Yes...

But on the other hand, I think I remember seeing some old Archive footage of S&W processes in manufacturing, in which a passing glance was made to the Repair Department, and, they had some pretty old stuff in there for repair and refinish, so it looked like in the 1940s or 1950s anyway, they were still doing repairs to their early Long Barrel, big Frame, American and Russian SA sorts of Revolvers, since it showed a few of those in process of being worked on.

And, I would actually expect that S&W even into the 1950s, would have had a lot of old Parts on some Shelves and so on, for prior styles and long gone Series and Models, in order to manage repairs of older Revolvers being sent in.

But, I am feeling bad now.

This Thread is supposed to be about the Boni Fide pre-War M&P 2 Inch Revolvers having a high percentage of LEO Shipping provenance, and, I did not mean in my enthusiasm with my new find, ( which I now realize is too early to have been one of the Boni Fide 'early' 2 inch versions anyway ) to have enticed detraction from the theme and reason!

Pardon me please.

It can happen so easily!

pace40 · #41 03-08-2012, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

But, I am feeling bad now.

This Thread is supposed to be about the Boni Fide pre-War M&P 2 Inch Revolvers having a high percentage of LEO Shipping provenance, and, I did not mean in my enthusiasm with my new find, ( which I now realize is too early to have been one of the Boni Fide 'early' 2 inch versions anyway ) to have enticed detraction from the theme and reason!

Pardon me please.

It can happen so easily!

Don't feel bad please...the thread is meant to generate discussion so that, possibly, some interesting bits of information are revealed. Certainly, some have been here.

Oyeboteb · #42 03-08-2012, 05:16 PM

Thanks Pace!

I feel better now.

I will 'Letter' my Nickel 2 Inch 'M&P' even though we all agree it is extremely unlikely it could have began life as a 2 inch...but, just to find out what it began Life as, and, to whom it was sent, and, when.

These pre-war 2 Inch 'M&P' ( or, 'M's I suppose, since S&W apparently did not call them anything more than 'Military', ) whether Boni Fide or Home Grown, really are among my vary favorite S&W Revolvers.

What have we come to suppose to have been their total production prior to WWII?