Had the camera out and shot a few new photos of some of my favorite subjects.

My most recently acquired 22-40 (687594):





And my close to 100% 22-40 that shipped in an appropriately stamped Outdoorsman box (684735):





As always, I love to see photos of any of your 22-40's. After all, isn't that why we all come to this "grown-up show-n-tell"?

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

One of those is high on my wish list. Very Very Nice!!

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George Jamison

Beautiful revolvers those pre-war Smiths are just stunning. Thanks for posting the pics.

Neat. Thanks for sharing.

The top side plate screw on both guns appears to be a bit proud in those pictures. Is that just a photo effect, or is that characteristic of the 22-40s?

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Dave

"I love to see photos of any of your 22-40's..."

I wish I could....

The best of the best. Thanks for posting.

GF

Sweet. I like mine too... (shown here with a First Model)





I picked up a second K-22/40 last summer and it's a little scruffier than my first, but the Pre-War Magnas are serailed to the gun so I guess I'll keep it....







With probably alot less than a 1,000 surviviors these guns are tough to find...

Drew:

That is one of the only sets of K-Frame pre-war magnas that I can recall being numbered to the gun. Your Masterpieces are very nice!

Thanks for sharing,

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Well, I just showed this one not too long ago, but since we have a dedicated K-22/40 thread I'll post the pics again. This is 684698, shipped by the factory in April of 1940 and soon thereafter purchased in Rochester NY.






I just love that honkin' big rear sight.




This one even came with its original sight adjustment tool.




Drew is absolutely right about the scarcity of this model. I believe the accepted production figure is 1067 units, of which several dozen must by now have been lost. In terms of scarcity, this model is right up there with other seldom-seens like the .32 Regulation Police target revolver and the Prewar .22/32 Kit Gun. It's not as rare as the K-32 First Model (that's the prewar .32 long target revolver) or the target Ladysmith, but it is still rare enough. I hold a good thought for you guys that are still looking for one; may you find what you are looking for sooner rather than later.

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David Wilson

David:

I never tire looking at your guns and I very much appreciate your regular contribution to our "sport." A question though, does your box number to 684698? The reason that I ask is that my 684735 (some 37 numbers higher than yours) also shipped in April 1940 and it shipped in an Outdoorsman box stamped 22-40, rather than a Masterpiece box...

Here is the box, stamped 22-40:

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

My #684893 , found it wearing Pachmayrs and red nail polish on the front sight , and lots of dust and dried oil. $500 brought it home.

Mkk,

That was a STEAL! These guns routinely bring 4-6 times that...

Glad you saved it!

Drew

I only have one left, and its part of a pair of guns done special for
Fred Miller, in 1940. Here is the picture from the auction catalog :



Col. Rex Applegate had put together a sub-collection that he called
"Guns of Famous Shooters". These two were part of that collection,
and were featured in the 1999 Amoskeag auction that sold the bulk
of his estate.

The guns are a matched pair, with the special front sight blades, and
unique Roper grips. Perhaps you can see the extra decoration near
the top of the grips. The K22-40 is the upper revolver.

Mike Priwer

Dave:

I think that it is just the lighting on the photos. The screws on these guns are just like all of my other pre-war revolvers... BTW thanks for all that you do to make this forum rock (I love the speed of the new server)...

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Here's mine with one of my pre-17s.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

Richard, my box does number to the gun, but I couldn't be sure until I took this photo. Digital imaging brings up contrast my eye couldn't see even in bright light. The label is worn and shelf-darkened, but you can still make out 684698 in the middle.



Even without the barely legible digits, the gun's story suggests that it has to be in its original box. The collector from whom I acquired it reported that he got it 30 years ago from the original owner, who had kept the box, docs and SAT together for 40 years.

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David Wilson

Those are some beautiful guns. Love this place. The closest for me would probably be a Heritage Model. The coolest part of these guns is the way the rear sight on the top strap looks like part of the frame. To think mkk41 found his for 500, wow. Larry

My gun came with some documents. I won't show the Helpful Hins brochure because that one must date to the late 1940s or early '50s; it was added to the box.

Here are pics of the trilingual caution note (English, Spanish, Portuguese) and the K-22/40 brochure that were also in the box. I don't know if this would have been in the K-22/40 box or if it would have been a targeted insert for Brazilian 1917s in either the 1937 or 1946 contract.




K-22/40 brochure, partly unfolded, exterior. Dated March 1, 1940:




Partly unfolded, interior:




Fully unfolded:




I will try to make a flat-bed scan of that K-22/40 brochure and upload it as a PDF file. It would look a lot better.

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David Wilson

Top one is 691386.
Bottom one is 691387.
Or maybe the other way around.

Enjoy,

bdGreen

[/URL]

BD stop showing off

That must make a "French 75" something Really Special!
Love the paper David. Look forward to the scan.

Bruce, I see you have one of those "Caution" cards too, so I guess they must have been part of contemporary box stuffings. Would those have been standard inclusions with all late-'30s models? I haven't seen one in any of the few boxed guns I have from that era.

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David Wilson

David:

I have 4 or 5 copies of the Caution cards, several of which were in K-22 Outdoorsman and Reg Mag boxes, so I would guess that they were standard.

One of my pre-war boxes also had a green "guarantee" card. This is the only one that I have seen, so I'm wondering if it was standard, and if so or not so, what period does it relate to... Any thoughts?

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Beautiful and what better reason to get another of one you already have...a variation! Great photos especially with the Marble's knife. A popular field companion of the period!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I was loving life 'til I spotted this thread. Guess I'll turn over the furniture and see if I can add to the change jar...............And GEEZ Sebago, I thought you was a saddle-tramp and you come out with iron like that!! What can be said.....? WOW!!

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Go big or stay home

Mike,
Gorgeous pair!! Poor Fred missed the boat. What a special .38 that would be if Fred had ordered it with the new 22/40 Micro sight! I love pre war guns with special order factory alterations like these two guns.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim

That would have been very interesting. The letter specifies that the
guns were built to Miller's specifications, so I guesss its what he
wanted. At the time, he was a foreman, or a manager, so presumably
he knew what he was doing.

Interestingly, Charlie Call was still working at the factory, in 1940.
He'd only been there for 58 years, at that time !

Mike Priwer

Wow, beautiful guns and the party is over in two days.

Folks, these are the cream of the crop for pre war .22's. That's why they are known as the First Model Masterpiece's.
Ok, here is another one.

enjoy,
bdGreen

I IS A Saddle Tramp....

Tough hauling around all my K-22's in boodle bags...

I'm a little confused, which isn't that unusual, but most often I can sort it out before embarrassing myself in public...which I am probably about to do.

Based upon expert testimony, there were only 1067 of the .22-40s built, and most of the examples here fall into the 684xxx range, and yet bdGreen shows a pair serialed at 691386 and 691387. Did I miss something? Is there a reason for the break in the numbering?

The K-22 Outdoorsman, K-22/40 and .38 M&P were all numbered in the same serial number series. It was not uncommon for the company to produce, say, a few hundred of one model, a few hundreds (or even thousands) more of another model, and then go back go make more of the first one. Sometimes, for reasons of their own, they produced and numbered frames out of strict serial sequence, later going back to fill in the blanks. Serialization studies can be a big deal among S&W collectors.

Another example: there are only 1200-1500 prewar .22/32 Kit Guns, and their numbers are found grouped in small blocks (200-300, say) within a range of about 5000 serial numbers. The other numbers were assigned to other I-frame models (or possibly even not used, which seems to have happened from time to time).

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David Wilson

Somewhere I've seen a list of serial numbers. If it exists, it must have come from Roy at one point or another. I've got one with a 682,000s and another up in the 692,000s. The gun I've got in the middle is an M&P target. Look at the top of the page and you'll see my gun. Except the caliber is different. Mine even has the HBH, a very rare option on K frame center fires. But I'd trade Dave for his!

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Dick Burg

The table below is from Neal & Jinks, Smith & Wesson 1857-1945, p. 52:

Serial number ranges are mostly short; I have grouped them by thousands (third digit of the serial number) to make them easier to peruse.The numbers after each range are the number of K-22/40s produced in each serial number block. The total number of guns represented in these serial number blocks comes to 1083, 16 more than the standard reported total of 1067. [ADDENDUM: In Roy Jinks' History of Smith & Wesson (1977), the earliest serial number is said to be 682420, which is 16 higher than the number reported in Neal & Jinks. If the later starting number in the first range is the correct one, then the figure of 1067 appears to be correct.]

682404 - 682469 66 (in the later source, 682420 - 682469 or 50 units)
682909 - 682951 43

683112 - 683210 99

684289 - 684330 42
684401 - 684455 55
684621 - 684628 8
684674 - 684698 25
684729 - 684752 24
684783 - 684858 76
684888 - 684933 46
684984 - 685050 67

686451 - 686500 50
686901 - 686950 50

687551 - 687600 50
687801 - 687850 50

688326 - 688375 50

690703 - 690782 80

691383 - 691432 50

692958 - 693037 80

696395 - 696434 40
696921 - 696952 32


I am not aware of any K-22/40 serial numbers that lie outside the ranges reported in that table. With the addition of a couple of numbers that surfaced in this thread and of which I was previously unaware, there are now 35 K-22/40s whose serial numbers are known to me. (This post was edited to include references to serial numbers reported down through post no. 40 in this thread.) If the known guns are randomly distributed, the average distance between any two serial numbers (adjusting for known gaps between number blocks) should be about 30. The lower limit would of course be 1 (adjacent numbers) and the probable upper limit would be somewhere between 75 and 100. (Just a crude guess; I didn't do any statistical analysis of distances between serial numbers of known guns.)

The known serial numbers are consistent with that kind of distribution, so I imagine the table above is pretty accurate and would not need more than slight adjustment if specimens continue to turn up. There is only one range in the table (the last) in which a numbered gun has not been reported.

EDITED TO ADD: I have been informed of the existence of 696952, so there is now at least one known specimen from each serial number block in the table above.

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David Wilson

Here is #682435. That is 31 numbers above the start of the first block. Does anyone have an earlier one? I bought this at a Greg Martin auction about ten years ago. They offered one a year for at least three years in a row, possibly from the same collection. Mine came in box #690713; I keep hoping that they got switched and someone else on the board bought the opposite combo.

Bob #946

Bob, thank you. That's two more serial numbers that can be added to the data base even though only one of them is on an observed revolver.

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David Wilson

I'm not real comfortable saying this, but "Nice box". About 3 or 4 of them so far. I did get slapped once in my younger years for saying that to a young lady. I was happy with the condition of mine. Some of these are about as good as they come.

The estimate of value in the discussion where the guy bought his at $500 is way low. They don't sell for 5 or 6 times that, they have sold over the last year or two in the $8750 range (see David Carroll). He may have come off his asking price, or maybe not.

And I lied up above. My K22 Masterpieces are 686,904 and 692,966 (if anyone's keeping track of known numbers. My M&P target is 682,152, standard config except the HBH.

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Dick Burg

And that's two more for the roster. Thank you, Dick.

The last time I saw a K-22/40 publicly offered anywhere, it was a couple of years ago for just over $2000. I have not seen any asking prices from anyone in a long time and figured current prices on these would be about $3000 for a good but not perfect gun with its box. I would not seriously consider a nearly $9000 gun, but at that price I suspect it would be a NIB specimen with all the pieces.

Does David Carroll still have that one? I couldn't find it in his current list.

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David Wilson

I have bought 3 of these 22/40's over the years, and I don't own one..... paid $299 out the door for the 1st one, $400 for the 2nd one . Probably the biggest regret I have is not keeping at least one of the 1st 2. oh well

Dan

I think I posted this back in '09 on the Association side but thought it might be of some interest now. I had acquired a nice box with some paper contents a couple of years prior but, at that time, failed to notice the serial number on the tape. When I did, it made no sense as I was aware of Roy's serial number range documentation of the K-22/40s. This gun was clearly out of that range. I asked Roy if there could have possibly been one of those guns with the number on this box. He checked and the gun which was native to this box was a 4" M&P shipped to the Ohio State Police in 1941. He said it was not unusual during the war for guns to be shipped in whatever was available. Still looking for the gun but it is a long shot.
Ed

Dan:

If I remember correctly wasn't one of the 1st two engraved? I tried to find a photo or two but I had no luck...

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Ed, first rate box.

As far as hanging on to these guns is concerned, I can't imagine I'd let ownership of a revolver stand in the way of proper medical attention or care for a family member. But until that day comes, I'd think my new K-22/40 would be one of the last to go in an unforced sell-down. The same would be true of the prewar .22/32 Kit Guns and any of the prewar/postwar .38/44s, both OD and HD versions.

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David Wilson

No, its long since vanished. What struck me was him pricing it that high. He'd sold me one of mine a few years back and while nearly perfect, I was stunned by both him asking so much and me somehow willing to pay it. But that was $3850 and basically a trade with the bait RMs.

One of our gun show regulars is Blake. He's not really a kid anymore, but compared to us oldfarts, he still is. Maybe 4 or 5 years ago he had a moderately well worn 2nd model, and was teetering on the idea of trading it to me for a decent RM. As I remember it, both guns were showing way too much wear to really be considered collectors guns. They were just very nice shooters. He couldn't decide. I think he was afraid I knew something he didn't and that I was trying to skin him. I've reminded him of it recently.

And I can honestly admit I've never shot either of my guns. But I've got prewar K22s to shoot, just outdoorsman. And I've got kind of early Postwar guns that I do shoot.

And an interesting story about my 2nds. I've had one for maybe 10 or so years. Back in that time period David Carroll was passing by and stopped in of a visit. He regularly passes where I live. He came in and we had a nice visit. It was at the old house here, and I had a gun room in the basement. His interest was primarily in RMs, but he wanted to look at 44s and K22s also. So out came the one 2nd I owned at the time. He looked at it for a minute or so, we boxed it back up and put it in the safe. Life continued. Then maybe 5 years ago (maybe more), but at least 5 years since he'd seen my 2nd) he had the other one I got from him. When I looked at it, it was nearly perfect - at the very least very nice. When I suggested to him it was about equal to my other one, he instantly said "no, its better". He was right. Maybe there is a difference between 97% and 98% guns, but it just amazed me David could remember it. And do the comparison that much later in time.

Another 2nd model comment. There seem to be way too many near perfect boxes turning up. I've personally come into 2 of them. One lives with the gun I got from David. The other was a disaster. One of our posters here "found" it in a barn he was tearing down. After a failed attempt to sell it here, he sent it to me, gratis! But I didn't keep it, I gave it to David so he could match it with a similarly distressed gun.

One of my fears is we have a situation (reinforced by the M&P shipped in a Masterpiece box) similar to that with K32s in the postwar. Ray Brazile tells a story about buying a boxcar load of them for almost nothing. Then selling them for obscene profits. His answer is that nearly everyone who paid him his price turned around and made even more. And its why a huge number of postwar K32s reside in boxes. I'm starting to wonder if we don't have a similar situation with 2nds.

The only thing notable about 692,966 is it came with a grip adapter. Both of mine have service grips.

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Dick Burg

Rick here are pictures of

the 1st



the 2nd was engraved by master engraver Benno Huene

I've been actively looking for an any condition 22/40 masterpiece box for one of mine and have been unable to find one. I saw several of them a few years ago, but at that time, I had no gun for the box.. So, if you (or anyone else for that matter) happen to come across one for sale, I would be very interested...

Thanks,

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Dan:

That is the one that I was remembering!!! I had forgotten that in addition to being beautifully engraved, it was also "tricked out" by King. BTW I love the cockeyed 22/40 hammer. I'm pretty sure that that one, if it had ever come anywhere near my home, would still be safely stored in my safe.

Thanks for re-posting the photos!

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

A couple of years back I was talking to Roy and the subject of the K22-40 boxes came up. I indicated that I was on the hunt for one and he proclaimed, "how many do you want?". Seems he actually has a number of boxes not yet made up. But, he isn't willing to part with any of them. Or, he wasn't at that time. Roy isn't a favorite of the notion of putting a gun in an acquired box unless it is the original to the gun.

Oh well, keep hunting guys.
bdGreen

I've got two K22/40's at home in the safe. I'll have to post the serial numbers once I get home (for your list). They may already be on your list since both of mine were previously owned by our own fold. My first one has matching number service grips and the other one wears magnas. The magnas are un numbered but it letters as having them. I tried taking pics a while back but am horrible at that. I need to read the "how-to-take-good-gun-pictures" thread and try again.
As an aside, I've always wanted a KCPD RM blued with a HBH. Not too many of those around either. I've been contemplating going to the WTB/WTT side and do some fishing for a trade.
Great thread guys!

Roger

Gentlemen, these are beautiful.

The finish on these pre war K22s is just stunning.

It seems to me that the factory put the same level of detail in these revolvers that they did in the Registered Magnums. They must certainly have been viewed as a premier showcase piece for Smith and Wesson at the time.

I'm home now and the serial numbers of mine are...
682924 and 683147. They are both relatively early in production. 682924 came with some documentation from the S&W historical foundation. It letters with the magnas but they are un numbered. 683147 has numbered-to-the-gun service grips. Very nice condition specimens if I may say so myself. I'll try to take some decent pics soon and post'em.

David, please add mine to your list (if they aren't on there already).

Thanks, Roger

Thank you, Roger. I had a record of the first one, but not the second.

There are now 39 identified K-22/40s. Every one of them lies within one of the serial number blocks identified in post no. 32 of this thread.

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David Wilson

David,

Did I ever give you the numbers from my pair? Can't recall....

Drew